The European Tribune is a forum for thoughtful dialogue of European and international issues. You are invited to post comments and your own articles.
Please REGISTER to post.
Animals have maps of reality but no grammar (well at least complex grammar, with the recent advances in etology one never knows).
The grammar coming from the interaction of the brain with the surroundings/soceity/people, of course.
However I wanted to emaphazise that this map is changed by changes in technology or in personal narratives or with a brilliant fraeaking guy (or groups of guys) coming with a brilliant history to tell (Shakespeare, Rosseau) which spread like fire. But they need a lot of time to take hold.
Keynnes and Friedman economic theories can soon become structural mappings of the world for different groups of people but they are still not. Friedman was an almost structural mythlogy in Washington and the rich elite for quite some decades (a certain subgroup of our culture like the punks, so it was a very high in the heirarchy of mappings for some people) but it was not universal and encompassing enough. So, hopefully we still have tiem to reverse it... given that in Europe it never took hold until very late and only as an alterantive narrative to the common social european consensus.
A pleasure I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude
European Tribune - Our world
My position has always been: do not try to change the structural myth, it is impossible.
I postulate that a structural myth can be changed. :-)
As I say later it can indeed be changed by global changes in personal narratives, technology and brilliant new approaches which encompass diffeent narratives and spread like fire and become globally self-evident (Enlightenment, shakespeare feeling structure)..
So we agree :)
There are Ghandis - and Hitlers - everywhere. Sometimes the wandering strange attractor of mythology locates itself on top of one of these leaders-in-waiting and transforms them. And thus the mythology renews itself. This renewal process has been happening since the dawn of humanity.
The reason I think individual 'will' is not involved, is because any mythological set is contributed to by all its believers, not just one. That leader has to be wanted, needed, desired and created by all those believers - even if it is change that is the aim, rather than a specific leader. The individual will is ridiculously weak in comparison. You can't be me, I'm taken
Memories are usually symbolistic (visual) and kinesthetic and can have aspects of verbal language.
One of the biggest problems with Enlightenment mythology is that positive feelings rely on external states and external events.
People have tried to create inherently positive mythologies - a Christian called Matthew Fox tried to promote something he called original blessing, as an antidote to the concept of original sin - but they're rarely sticky.
In fact one of the many ironies of the Enlightenment is that structural mythologies are terror-based, and rooted in the immiment fear of pain, death and annihilation.
Aside from a brief outburst of optimism in the 60s, which created Star Trek and some other positive ideologies, most Western mythology is surprisingly gloomy and desperate. ('In the long run we're all dead.')
There's a permanent opposition between a slightly strained cult of personal sovereignty, and Everything Else, which is either indifferent or hostile.
The Enlightenment never really outgrew Christianity's fear of apocalypse. And aside from fear of snakes, mythologies of doom and apocalypse have always been one of the paradoxically unconscious drivers of Enlightenment values.
Unsurprisingly, it's not easy to feel inherently positive in that kind of background atmosphere.
I formally attach to it :)
And regarding Enlightenment fight with Apocalypse mythologies.. wow... wow...now you will have me at least week thinking about it.
Did I say Space Opera?
In Scientology, founder L. Ron Hubbard used the science fiction term space opera to describe what he said were actual extraterrestrial civilizations and alien interventions in past lives. Upon Hubbard's death in 1986, the Church of Scientology announced that he had discarded his physical body and was now "on a planet a galaxy away."
You mightlike thsi as an introduction http://www.pointofinquiry.org/susan_sackett_the_secular_humanism_of_star_trek/
but write star trek the new generation and humanism in google..and you will see.
More than anything they overestimated the power of reason. The Jacobins thought they could replace Christianity with a Cult of Reason, but that only lasted so long as the Terror endured. The Enlightenment was never more than a veneer over a much more tumultuous, emotional and religious society. So long as educated elites ran things, Enlightenment values endured. But with the broadening of the voter franchise and the incorporation of the merely literate, as opposed to the broadly educated, into the political process the Christian world view increasingly intruded upon and then challenged Enlightenment values.
Reason cannot compete with the power of the mythic frame of Christianity in the minds of those who have never really been able to see the power of reason, which is so often found in subtlety. In a very real sense the founders of the Enlightenment, especially in France, never had the opportunity, especially in the ancien regime, to see just how weak the appeal of reason was. Adam Smith was closer to the mark in seeing that the requirements of commerce could produce a more refined population, but even there, that refinement did not extend to causing the masses to prefer reason to religion.
Our modern world was built by elites with Enlightenment values and the process was conceived as The Enlightenment Process. But, in the USA, in order for some of those elites to retain power and to continue their own self-aggrandizement, they formed an alliance with a numerically superior group who fundamentally rejected the entire Enlightenment Project and values. Having sown the wind we all are now reaping the whirlwind.
Fortunately, the fundamentalist true believers are not, by themselves, a true governing majority, and, in the USA, those to whom they supplied critical support, when elected to government, have discredited themselves in the eyes of a majority--for now. But they may form a blocking minority. Time will tell and the game is still afoot. One thing is clear. Those who still hold Enlightenment values, such as the universal rights of man and the rights of minorities, need to learn how to frame and narrate their agenda in terms more appealing than those used by their opponents. The current US Administration has not distinguished themselves in this regard. "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
It is brilliant.
I have more or less an idea about how people attach and dettach, accpet and reject frames...about how each one constructs his own personal narrative but there are only partial rules. Each person is a different world engaged inthsoe rules. And I deeply believe that the process is chaotic and deterministic with not that much random noise (I have no proof wahtsoever but I will bet that most physicist agree with me, when we are explained cahotic system with noise we all come to the same conclusion.. this is how I came to be). We do have some indication coming from the excellent predictions socioologists and antrhopologists do predicting human behaviour in a lot of circumstances at short-term scales
But regarding how human beigns develop personal and different narratives, some of them as powerfull as gandhi, well it is a biological and cultural aptitude, like maths. You develop them by training, and the more you train the more you develop teh aptittue.. and may be you may need some brain structure working very well (thanks to some biological properties.. ei maybe encoding genes and proteins may have a small role in it by a cascade effect). It might involve reflexion, stroy-telling and other brain enhanced activities (self-inspection and so on), who really knows je jej certianly I do not know. Add probably it can not be known scientifically... I guess the answer must go to the wonderful magic box for now :)
the process is chaotic and deterministic
this can be, but does not have to be and I am talking of over twenty years of experience working with clients and helping them to change their map of reality, in way that is more fulfilling and open, then their previous one. Sometimes it can be very easy and fast and at times it can be slow and take some effort. But it is always amazing and gratifying what can happen to someone when they are able to shift their map of reality.
So the trajectories change completely...So in a snese, working with people is one of the multiple things that maek the system chaortic.. but I would say that you try to use techniques that have been proven to be effective in your everyday life. So in this sense you want them to be deterministic.. to ahve effect.. the problem is that you can not know the exact effect because the system is chaotic...
And I did not even talked about random noise (like bumping into someone).
So I agree with you, but also with Migeru, do not misunderstimate the influence of the narratives we explain to ourselves constantly.... if someone is not in the frame/history/map to cahnge, he/she will not change, no matter what.
A pleasur I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude
but somehow I think some are too powerful and too integrated in oneself.
Maybe through strong meditation and learning I could stop feeling obvious that "myself" exist...at most I couls try to understand and take the buddhism philosophy.. but frankly how on earth I am going to think that a tree is thinking in my brain? I think I should have learnt that when I was child... now it is no longer possible.
the same goes for the misterous spatial mythologies.. I am not sure you can change them because, frankly, the only thing I know is that they are very powerful but I do not even understand them even at the basic level.
I am with you there is a lot of fundamental structures that one can change in adulthood.. but I am not sure all of them can be changed.
Still, I am an optimistic kind of guy.. one can change the relevant ones..but this is a stroy a tell to myself :)
And I did not say it was always easy. :-)
But you don't need meditation for that. You can just read a lot of Anthropology. En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
Both are useful to different people.
Implicit Association Test
It is well known that people don't always 'speak their minds', and it is suspected that people don't always 'know their minds'. Understanding such divergences is important to scientific psychology. This web site presents a method that demonstrates the conscious-unconscious divergences much more convincingly than has been possible with previous methods. This new method is called the Implicit Association Test, or IAT for short. In addition, this site contains various related information. The value of this information may be greatest if you try at least one test first...
It is well known that people don't always 'speak their minds', and it is suspected that people don't always 'know their minds'. Understanding such divergences is important to scientific psychology.
This web site presents a method that demonstrates the conscious-unconscious divergences much more convincingly than has been possible with previous methods. This new method is called the Implicit Association Test, or IAT for short.
In addition, this site contains various related information. The value of this information may be greatest if you try at least one test first...
This one showed me a lot of the beliefs I held at the time. Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
deeply intoxicated with Monty Python ideas
??? 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
Now Migeru can start with meditation and Fran with anthropology.. deal?
Well you know... the stuff.. but somehow I think it should be "artesania" not a full-time organized job :)
I don't pretend to have the level of narrative self-awareness of yours or Fran's... En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
there is indeed a creative aspect. You need to know a lot of stuff.. and it might come naturally.
The more you trainethe more easy it seems to develop and project transformative experiences.
I think you would probably write a better diary than myself regarding how people attach and dettach of narratives, how they create some, how they read (semi-accept) some, how they rreject most and how personality and the internal and external bahvioural world develops.
Transformative experiences, awakenings (also named revelations) and strong cognitive dissonances are the main ingredient of personal psychology (or anthropology at the individual level).
As you indicate both creation and attachment are strongly related... a very impressive mythology if it spreads must create one of the above-mentioned three. Agreed
The point at which 'willpower' (whatever that is - but I suspect it is a Learned Behaviour Disorder) is exercised, is preceded by a chaotic personal history. 'Willpower' has to be seen in that context. It is not something plucked out of thin air or applied by a secret switch.
One can change one's life, but only if that life is ready to be changed - like the psychologists lightbulb. You can't be me, I'm taken
I think some people refer to willpower when they talk about the human ability to realize that something was different that he expected and act accordingly.
Maybe others have different definitions of willpower.
But willpower in the sense you use it is a very particular word used in some particular context in western treatments of the self (which we all know is our main characteristic, to develop hundred of concepts and ideas about the self).
Changing ones life includes changing the narrativ or even the myth - but I do agree, you have to be ready. For most people it is a dissatisfaction with their current lifes that makes them look for change. But it is not solely a thing of willpower or thinking - that does not work, it has to go deeper into what kcurie calles the symbolic.
That is a story you tell yourself. :-) En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
For most people it is a dissatisfaction with their current lifes that makes them look for change. But it is not solely a thing of willpower or thinking - that does not work, it has to go deeper into what kcurie calles the symbolic.
The mystics can be a guide here, but only if one is at the proper point in their life. When I was in grad school I took a Western Intellectual History course taught by, my luck, a self professed Thomist, his belief system was far from the only thing this professor liked to be outrageous about. One of the assignments was Juan de la Cruz's Dark Night of the Soul! I was a 21 year old atheist and thought that having to read and attempt to understand this drivel work was my own dark night of the soul. I read the work and tried to understand it but I had no basis for so doing. I got my A by not having to deal with Juan. A few years later, after some relevant personal experience, no problem! I clearly understood what Juan had been talking about, even though the way out that I found would have been alien to him. (Unless, perhaps, some of Juan's experiences were triggered by ergot, but even then...)
One thing though is clear: utter and abject misery is a wonderful motivator to cause one to consider that perhaps there are errors or omissions in one's understanding of one's self and the world, although it is far from sufficient. Subsequently I have often seen that a similar situation is the motivating force for others to reevaluate themselves and their lives. One can arrive at a similar conclusion on a purely abstract and intellectual basis, but the understanding thus achieved usually lacks the emotional force and motivating power to cause them to be willing to undertake the difficult inner work needed for change.
"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
On a completely related note, I hope to get some face time with Guru Fran in Paris.
you are the media you consume.
One thing though is clear: utter and abject misery is a wonderful motivator to cause one to consider that perhaps there are errors or omissions in one's understanding of one's self and the world, although it is far from sufficient.
This also works for countries.
And perhaps for civilisations (but not quite so much.)
But none of us choose or control our own history
We certainly do not choose the circumstances into which we are born. Worse, the development of our brains is guided for years by our parents, who are, after all, only doing the best they can. But at a certain point we can become aware of these factors and then we have the ability to choose how we react and respond to that situation. Therein lies our own opportunity and responsibility. "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
But I strongly agree that a mythology that is strongly integrative of all aspects of our psyches, that enables us to see and understand the constraints under which we labor and to visualize how our world could better be organized and that enables people to feel that they are doing vital and necessary work to provide a better future that might include ponies for all could become viral and overwhelm weaker frames. Christianity did this some 1700 years ago, but, IMO, did so by winning the promising and lying contest with other religions. How about a mythology wherein it is not necessary to die to reach heaven? "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
How about a mythology wherein it is not necessary to die to reach heaven?
now you're talking!
'heaven is in your mind' (winwood/capaldi) 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
But not everybody is a philosopher. En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
Think of all the born-again Christians who can't stop trying to save others by convincing them to accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour. En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
And not everyone who changes their narrative become a born again Christian. :-)
That's not what I said, I said that everyone who is a born-again Christian has changed their narrative. En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
not everyone who changes their narrative become a born again Christian
yet!
everybody lives by some kind of philosophy, consciously or not. 'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
I will introduce for short-term political purposes.
by Oui - Dec 5
by gmoke - Nov 28
by Oui - Dec 69 comments
by Oui - Dec 6
by Oui - Dec 41 comment
by Oui - Dec 2
by Oui - Dec 142 comments
by Oui - Dec 16 comments
by gmoke - Nov 303 comments
by Oui - Nov 3012 comments
by Oui - Nov 2838 comments
by Oui - Nov 2713 comments
by Oui - Nov 2511 comments
by Oui - Nov 24
by Oui - Nov 221 comment
by Oui - Nov 22
by Oui - Nov 2119 comments
by Oui - Nov 1615 comments
by Oui - Nov 154 comments
by Oui - Nov 1319 comments