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I'd like to think that, as the only person on this board who has experienced both sides of the divide, I'd have something useful to comment. But I transitioned too late for me to feel obliged to buy into the bs Izzy talks about. I wasn't brought up as a girl, I didn't learn female expectations.

But do not for a minute underestimate the reality that women live in an entirely different culture to men. We all imagine that, because we live in the same country, work in the same places, watch the same TV that we have the same culture. We don't, they exist side by side, inhabiting the same physical space yet, for most men (particularly men) and quite a lot of women, almost never really interacting.

I am still a creature of male culture, but with, shall we say, privileged access to female culture, but I am not of female culture.

I don't think men can ever realise how different it is. The scariest thing I ever did as a male was start learning to bellydance. Walking into a class full of women, being, for the first time in my life, in their world was very intimidating. The rules are different and the interactions are different. And as a male, as an interloper, there on licence rather than by right, my first lesson was to learn that I didn't know the rules. Any of them. It wasn't a case of adapting, it was a case of starting afresh.

And what you learn, eventually, is that the cultural values that women have are different.

there is a lot more to it, even as I write I could add a page of qualifiers to each paragraph, so I understand that this is simplistic. But I'm trying to get an idea across.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 05:51:48 AM EST
Thank you so much, Helen, for this wonderful comment.  This:

But do not for a minute underestimate the reality that women live in an entirely different culture to men. We all imagine that, because we live in the same country, work in the same places, watch the same TV that we have the same culture. We don't, they exist side by side, inhabiting the same physical space

...is one of those things I know to be true.  Absolutely felt it in my guts to be true even before getting any education about the studies which indicate it to be true.  Still, it's one of those difficult things to discuss with people, or to convince people of who don't have the experience of it.  Your experience and testimony is so valuable and much appreciated.

And THIS:

The scariest thing I ever did as a male was start learning to bellydance. Walking into a class full of women, being, for the first time in my life, in their world was very intimidating. The rules are different and the interactions are different. And as a male, as an interloper, there on licence rather than by right, my first lesson was to learn that I didn't know the rules. Any of them. It wasn't a case of adapting

... was incredibly brave.  If I was in your place, I don't know if I'd have had the fortitude to walk into that bellydancing class.  To a lesser extent though, this is the same thing women often experience entering the workforce, depending on the environment.  I say lesser because things ARE improving with time.  A woman entering a law firm now is in a better environment and position than one entering one in the 50s.  

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 02:01:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think women are more aware of male culture than vice versa; they have to be because it is the default cultural space of shared interactions. Men deal with everybody on their terms, but women have to learn to deal with men on men's terms too.

At least men know they don't understand female culture, most of them wouldn't ever have experienced it. But no man would pretend to say "I understand women". Unfortunately their greater familiarity with the surface aspects of male culture persuades some women they have insight into its depths. And that leads to some marvellously wrong headed presumptions

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 03:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately their greater familiarity with the surface aspects of male culture persuades some women they have insight into its depths. And that leads to some marvellously wrong headed presumptions

I'd love to read that as a diary!

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 02:19:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen wrote:

But do not for a minute underestimate the reality that women live in an entirely different culture to men. We all imagine that, because we live in the same country, work in the same places, watch the same TV that we have the same culture. We don't, they exist side by side, inhabiting the same physical space yet, for most men (particularly men) and quite a lot of women, almost never really interacting.

Agreed. There are things I (A man) wouldn't ever talk about with my wife or another woman. I imagine the womans world has similar taboos.
And whats the result? A lot of stuff in the media about men women read and see is just BS.
Also there is the geographical difference. As mentioned before American women seem to be body hair crazy. That`s different in Germany. Even if perhaps some young girls and women start to imitate this crazyness now. I read about that recently. Don't have any daughters.
I also never heard this thing about lesbian Birkenstocks ...
Finally a dress code experience. I'm more the jeans type and wear a suit and tie only when absolutely necessary.
So once in a while mostly women find that inappropriate. In this case they normally tell that to my wife or mother in law :-)

Schau in mich, Harno

Make it as simple as possible but not simpler (Albert Einstein)

by harnoes on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 04:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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