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Yea, they tried to pull that one on me at first. I just ignored them, arguing that whenever any female told me "no woman would do xxx.."  I could invariably point to a women doing exactly. After a while they realise I wouldn't play the game. It gave me peace but it lessened my cultural acceptance.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 07:05:01 AM EST
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After a while they realise I wouldn't play the game. It gave me peace but it lessened my cultural acceptance.

Because in the end this is all about group conformity.

There are unspoken dress codes everywhere. in the City of London men have to wear black suits, red ties, and black leather shoes with laces and leather soles (or something like that). If they don't conform they don't progress precisely because they don't conform and failing to strive to conform is a character flaw in a corporate setting.

Birkenstocks are for lesbians works both ways - on the one hand if an American woman wants to buy sandals she'll carefully consider whether she wants to telegraph to the world that she's a DFH. Coversely, group conformity among American feminists requires adherence to a particular counter-cultural dress code.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 07:29:22 AM EST
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That's not just the City of London.  The politicians over there seem to wear that outfit, too.  It's weird-looking (plain suit, plain shirt, plain tie?  really?).

I'm not terribly familiar with the whole Birkenstock thing.  Being from Florida, everybody always wore flip-flops.  It's not that flip-flops have some great cultural significance.  Sandals are supposed to be simple shoes you slip on and go on your way.  It's not that Birks have teh ghey that would keep me away from them.  It's that the designs are goofy-looking and they cost more than I've ever spent on an entire business outfit (suit, shirt, socks, and tie), whereas flip-flops are simple and can be had for ten or twenty bucks -- depending on what they're made of -- at any clothing store in the country.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 08:42:51 AM EST
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I'm not terribly familiar with the whole Birkenstock thing.  Being from Florida, everybody always wore flip-flops.  It's not that flip-flops have some great cultural significance.

O my gawd, gag me with a spoon! You're not seriously equating birkenstocks with flip-flops?

Valley girls wear flip-flops. Girls in Newport Beach and Venice Beach and Santa Monica and English girls out in the snow in London wear flip-flops. Maybe the Great Birkenstock/Flip-Flop divide isn't important in Florid'oh, but it is in California.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:11:31 AM EST
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I am equating them!  Birkenstocks are bizarre, overpriced flip-flops for people who don't want to be accused of wearing flip-flops.

Don't bring English girls into this.  That's not fair.  English girls will wear anything, so long as it's wholly inappropriate to the weather.  These are the girls who wear short skirts and tights, looking like they just got thrown out of the making of some '80s new wave music video, when it's 22F outside.

And you lived in Gullyvornyah.  Gullyvornyah is a whole different ballgame from Florida.  It's earthquakes vs hurricanes, culturally.  They take fashion seriously out there, whereas the only people who care in Florida are the New Yorkers and the girls on South Beach who wish they were living in Los Angeles.

Flip-flops are the ramshackle shoe of the people in Florida, my friend.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:23:40 AM EST
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the girls on South Beach who wish they were living in Los Angeles

Wait, if I can't bring up English girls you can't bring up the ones from South Beach.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:48:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Birkenstocks are functionally different from flip-flops.

Flip-flops can get wet, Birks can't.
Flip-flops flip and flop around your feet, while Birks mold to your foot much more carefully.
Birks usually have more stuff on top to keep them on, flip-flops don't.
Flip-flops are cute and trendy, Birks are hippie-wear.  Except in Japan, where night is day.

My arch is incredibly high, so I can't wear flip-flops.  They just fall off.  But Birk-clones are no problem.

by Zwackus on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 02:52:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I had to image-search for both... but indeed I find the equation of the two strange, especially because of the water. As for more local cultural associations: in Germany (at least around Frankfurt), birkenstocks were somehow associated with old people. Not so in Hungary (though that may have changed since -- I rarely see them on young people in the summer, flip-flops spread here too).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 03:19:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, any assistance googling newspaper stories from last December's blizzard illustrating

English girls out in the snow in London wear flip-flops

would be appreciated. I just can't find the keywords to coerce google to spit those up.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:24:44 AM EST
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It's not that Birks have teh ghey

Oh, and I didn't even go into what gay panic means for the unspoken dress code for the average American male.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:14:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
flip-flops are simple and can be had for ten or twenty bucks -- depending on what they're made of

Uh, that's expensive. The flip-flops I wear between the locker room and the tatami when I go to karate class cost me €2 at a local supermarket.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:57:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
€2 is, like, $60.  What are you on about?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 10:30:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
zOMG, Drew is posting news from the future!

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 10:51:32 AM EST
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I can't tell you how proud I am that you guys have created a shoe blogging sub-thread... <wipes tear from eye>...

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 01:39:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
USATODAY.com - Study says flirtatious women get fewer raises, promotions
Women who send flirtatious e-mail, wear short skirts or massage a man's shoulders at work win fewer pay raises and promotions, according to a Tulane University study to be presented Monday at the Academy of Management annual meeting in Honolulu.

In the first study to make plain the negative consequences of such behavior, 49% of 164 female MBA graduates said in a survey that they have tried to advance in their careers by sometimes engaging in at least one of 10 sexual behaviors, including crossing their legs provocatively or leaning over a table to let men look down their shirts.

But...

The other half said they never engaged in such activity, and those women have earned an average of three promotions, vs. two for the group that had employed sexuality. Those who said they never used sexuality were, on average, in the $75,000-$100,000 income range; the others fell, on average, in the next-lowest range, $50,000 to $75,000.

So without a well-defined dress code, it's not so much that women 'might be using their wiles, or some such', but that a good proportion of women will certainly try.

Although it's not often labelled as such, this is actually a form of sexual harassment.

Now, in the real world everyone understands that while all employees should be completely adult goal-oriented productive models of maturity and detachment at work, that's not what actually happens. Flirting and sex, sometimes calculated and manipulative or pressured, sometimes not, sometimes welcome, sometimes not, are always going to be an issue, from both genders.

But it's maybe not so unreasonable to want to keep them down to a reasonable background noise if people are trying to concentrate on other stuff.

Obviously the corollary is that women have the right to assume there will be no pawing, whistling, ass grabbing, innuendo, or suggestions that a weekend away might just swing that promotion.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:08:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Although it's not often labelled as such, this is actually a form of sexual harassment.

Why, yes, yes it is, and, so far as I can see, entirely off-topic to the subject of the post.  Do people act stupid and shitty and behave badly in innumerable ways?  Indisputably.  Are dress codes sometimes necessary?  Probably.  (am I permanently doomed to feel I'm channeling Rumsfeld when indulging in this sort of communication style?  absolutely)...

BUT!  What I'm talking about is more a CLIMATE than the specifics of who wears what in individual circumstances.  The climate which 1) makes an issue of women's sexuality no matter what and 2)  makes an underlying assumption that we need to be TOLD how not to make these sorts of "mistakes" or create these sorts of "problems" even if we're not doing ANYTHING and 3) that the CLOTHES (or underwear) in and of themselves is in no way the issue -- the clothes as SYMBOLS and SYMPTOM of the cultural problems we women are experiencing is the problem I'm trying to shed some light on here.  Perhaps I'm failing.  

But this part of your comment is a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about:

So without a well-defined dress code, it's not so much that women 'might be using their wiles, or some such', but that a good proportion of women will certainly try.

You're identifying women as the problem, not human behavior.  What you're saying is that women NEED an enforced dress code or they'll "certainly try" to behave badly.  Where does it say in this article that ANYONE interviewed was outside the bounds of a dress code?  If I follow your reasoning, then a lot MORE rules would stop these pesky women.  Maybe they should just all kneel in the foyer every morning and measure the space from their hems like schools do, right?  Are you seeing the problem here?

To my eyes, the closing paragraph of the article is the pertinent bit (bold mine):

Almost all the women in the Tulane study who said they used sexual behavior said they did so infrequently. But executive coach Debra Benton, who has long asked business leaders about the pros and cons of sexuality in the workplace, said that if a similar survey were given to men, they would say that women use sexuality "all the time." Women need to be aware that when they say "It's a nice day," men will often conclude "She wants me," Benton says.

What should we make the men wear or not wear to put a stop to this outrageous behavior?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 01:39:09 AM EST
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