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European Tribune - Listen up, boys!
 And before you say it, this is NOT equivalent to wearing a suit and tie.  A dress code is one thing, but this is something else.

double-standard alert!

how do you know what it feels like to be bound by such ludicrous mores as the suit and tie thing? i accept that the pressure is much worse on women, no argument there, but i agree with mig that women do a lot of this to themselves, as we men too do with the inane rules on neck-throttlers at work, or penguin outfits for 'evening' wear.

the whole thing is a preposterous farce, boosted to pimp $ into the fashion industry which knows no gender confinement when it come to iconising the absurd for profit.

men will never know the pains of menstruation or childbirth, and women will never know the pleasure of growing a beard, or the equal pleasure of shaving it off. (or the pain of being kicked in the nuts).

there may be similarities between us, indigestion etc, but largely women are designed entirely differently than us, for some ancient repro reason, (shortly to become totally irrelevant, as science has its merry way with us...)

i find it makes life infinitely interesting, after all our interdependence is as close to absolute as could be.

great rant izzy, whatever it takes to get you sharing your inimitable take on things, works!

the health care diary was as good as anything ever diaried here, imo.

and last but not least, my sympathies for the difficult aspects of being a woman of your intelligence and sensibility in a world being run into total insanity, 90% through male pathology.

the fact that this distortion field reaches as far as your underwear is depressingly unsurprising, i too would feel rage at the madonna-slut dichotomy being laid on/pandered to me, although i'd never be able to diary it so well, lol!

patriarchy sucks.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 08:15:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
how do you know what it feels like to be bound by such ludicrous mores as the suit and tie thing?

In fact, any deviation from boring in a man's clothing will be classified as Izzy's

flamboyant, provocative, or slovenly


En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The permission to be perfectly boring is a great gift. But the adjectives used for men will be more in the vein of gay or macho.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
or a slob.

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 09:29:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or shabby or hippie. However, as a tie-and-suit abstainer, while I do feel the societal pressure on me, I wouldn't say it compares in strength to that on (at least young) women. I would (ignorantly) venture to claim however, that another cloth-related pressure I had experience with, that on immigrants, does compare in strength.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 11:58:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
permission to be boring, anonymous, invisible, blended in is fine, though unnecessary. pressure to be same, is not ok.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 12:40:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The permission to be perfectly boring is a great gift.

What a wonderful sentence!  I feel I should embroider it on a pillow or something!

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 12:57:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Or emblazoned on your own line of designer underwear? ;-)

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 03:47:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hello Izzy!™ underwear?

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 03:53:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll try to have them available for you guys before the next meetup.  So, boxers or briefs?

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes
by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 1st, 2010 at 07:10:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
CafePress, here we come!

En un viejo país ineficiente, algo así como España entre dos guerras civiles, poseer una casa y poca hacienda y memoria ninguna. -- Gil de Biedma
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 at 04:01:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
how do you know what it feels like to be bound by such ludicrous mores as the suit and tie thing?

Um...high school?  Or is that a peculiarly British perversion?  I wore a tie for years.

by Sassafras on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 01:04:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right, sass, thanks.  I never meant to imply that men don't also feel societal pressure or discomfort to conform, in fact I think I acknowledged they do.  I just think that for women, it has an intense, personal element that's somehow tied in with our sexuality and how it's viewed in the culture as a whole.  

I don't believe most men really grow up with that, although I do know some of my gay friends have felt versions of it.  But even in that case, 'female' is the reviled 'other' -- women are often attacked for BEING sexual, whereas men are often attacked for "teh gay" -- the root of said attacks usually being that 'gay' is too female/girly and less male/manly.

Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding. -Hobbes

by Izzy (izzy at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 01:21:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Look at how women are demonized in the media for their sexuality, in court cases where there has been rape etc.  

Look at the Kercher trial and how Amanda Knox's sexuality and 'deviancy' formed the core of all media discussion.  Was the sexuality of the men involved in this case under such intense scrutiny?

It seems that there is no escape from the scrutiny of female sexuality and it turns into horrific discussion at times.

by In Wales (inwales aaat eurotrib.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 01:29:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
thankyou, ladies, for the insights and explanations. any guide at all, especially of such quality, to the psychology of how we mutually experience the gender divide is of immense value.

you guys said some really cool things too!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 04:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
haha, the lacrosse crowd...

betcha never had to wear a jock strap then!

i'm kidding, the only thing that's worse than the surreal strictures men have enslaved themselves to, are the ones endured by women...

:>)

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Jan 31st, 2010 at 08:22:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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