Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque | 114 comments (114 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

On a slightly different note, I can't help to wonder how the Japanese would feel if an American citizen proposed to build a McDonalds on Hiroshima's Ground Zero.

Constitutional or not, it's the wrong place to build a mosque. Instead of bridging the divide between Islam and the West, this project is doing the exact opposite before it's even started.

by Lynch on Sun Aug 15th, 2010 at 03:53:44 PM EST

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 2)

The McDonalds at Naka Nishihakushimachiyo 15-4 in Hiroshima is almost as close to the Hiroshima Peace Memoria as the mosque is to NY's Ground Zero. Same applies to the McDonalds at Dachau and the concentration camp.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Sun Aug 15th, 2010 at 04:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

I didn't know that. But I'm sure that it in no way contributed to the reconciliation between the Japanese and the Americans. If anything, it contributed to the contrary.

by Lynch on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 01:06:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Lynch:

I didn't know that.

You should do some homework before making such statements, then.

Lynch:

I'm sure that it in no way contributed to the reconciliation between the Japanese and the Americans. If anything, it contributed to the contrary.

Ludicrously lame argument...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 02:35:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

Thing is, there is already a mosque on the site of the proposed centre. Do you think that the existing congregation should be forced to move further away from Ground Zero?

by Gag Halfrunt on Sun Aug 15th, 2010 at 05:01:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 1)

You're just not getting it. Islam did not bring the Twin Towers down. Some religious extremists allied with a group called Al Qaeda did. In fact, predominantly Muslim countries around the world expressed sincere sympathy toward the US on 9/11.

Should Americans blame German-Americans for Hitler's antics during WWII, or Italian-Americans for Mussoulini's?

America just has to get over its Islamophobia just as we are starting to get over Black racism, and it does not help to acquiesce to the bigots or just plain ignorance to move the proposed site of the mosque. To do so would be a concession to bigotry and ignorance.

by shergald on Sun Aug 15th, 2010 at 05:12:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

Well, it seems like some Americans could blame Japanese-Americans for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so I don't think either or your examples would be a stretch.

9/11 changed everything: didn't you get the memo?

we are starting to get over Black racism,

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Sun Aug 15th, 2010 at 05:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

You're not suggesting that racism doesn't exist in the British Isles, are you? Or that anti-Islamism doesn't exist in France or Europe in general?

by shergald on Sun Aug 15th, 2010 at 08:56:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Interestingly, the immediate online reaction of many Americans of any notice being taken of the horrors of Hiroshima on its anniversary was to shout things like "Nanking! What about Nanking!". US horrors always need to be immediately compared to those of others, as if that excuses the US.

It what part of my comment did I raise anything about Europe or European racism? I mean, you're technically correct, in that there is precisely zero information about racism in UK or Ireland or anti-Islamism in France or Europe in my comment, but I don't think that's what you meant.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 03:17:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 2)

Just like the Blitz justifies the firebombing of, well, all of Germany, really.

(Hamburg and Dresden most famously, of course)

Let's not fool ourselves, the strategic imperative to massively kill civilians in order to break the enemy's will to fight is still alive and well (the US likes its shock and awe...).

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 04:53:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Should Americans blame German-Americans for Hitler's antics during WWII, or Italian-Americans for Mussoulini's?

Japanese-Americans were in fact interned.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 15th, 2010 at 08:08:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Yes, Japanese-Americans were interred during WWII. And they were not trusted. Does that mean we should not trust Muslim Americans, or that we should blame them for 9/11?

I don't think so. Yet, there is that implication from a minority of Americans, mostly right wing GOP types, that all Muslims are extremists and interested in jihad against America. A mosque near Ground Zero is an insult to the victims of 9/11, even though Muslims and Muslim Americans were among the dead.

Ignorance and bigotry should not triumph in this controversy.

by shergald on Sun Aug 15th, 2010 at 08:53:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

I'm just saying that the rhetorical question you asked invites the answer "yes, by precedent". So don't use that rhetorical question. Rhetorics 101, really.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 03:16:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

As were, in smaller numbers, German-Americans and Italian-Americans.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 02:40:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Not at all.

The problem was, as it is today for Muslims, that they, the Japanese, were different. They were not Caucasians for one thing, and they ate strange food, for another. Muslims are not Christians even though Jesus and Judaism is somehow incorporated into their "book."

Terrorism didn't just begin on 9/11, agreed.

Still, are all of these Euro-posts above intended to justify bigotry and prejudice in the NYC mosque controversy?

by shergald on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 11:40:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

shergald:

are all of these Euro-posts above intended to justify bigotry and prejudice in the NYC mosque controversy?

No, they're intended to point out to you your rhetoric is faulty.

By "all these Euro-posts" do you mean we should shut up since we're not US citizens? (I believe gk may be one, though)

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 11:48:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

No, speak up. You're complicit in this anti-Islamic campaign just as we are, or at least some of us. Below is the latest from the US:

New GOP strategy to embrace Islamophobia (shergald)
Two articles appeared in Alternet this morning arguing that the GOP intends to fully develop Islamophobia as a campaign strategy, and to use Islam and perhaps Muslim-Americans in their next scapegoats.

GOP Fully Intends to Pit Americans Against Each Other Over the Cordoba House
At a certain level, it's still hard to fathom why the Cordoba House is so controversial. A Burlington Coat Factory store closed down; a local religious leader wants to build a community center at the location. This isn't especially interesting....
National Republican Senatorial Committee Chairman John Cornyn (R-Texas) argued today on Fox News that his party, without a policy agenda or substantive ideas about the future, intends to pit Americans against each other over this issue during the campaign season.
http://blogs.alternet.org/spea...

And then,

<b?Gingrich, Bolton, Breitbart Team Up With Far-Right Muslim-Basher Geert Wilders For 9/11 Rally </b>
The right-wing group Stop Islamization of America (SIOA) has announced that it will be hosting a rally against the proposed Cordoba House Islamic community center on September 11.
The confirmed list of speakers includes former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton, Andrew Breitbart, and, notably, the far-right Dutch Parliamentarian Geert Wilders. "Islam is not a religion, it's an ideology," Wilders told the Guardian in 2009, "the ideology of a retarded culture."
In the past, Wilders' extremism has been condemned by conservatives such as Bill Kristol, Charles Krauthammer, and even Glenn Beck, who called Wilders "fascist." It's a clear sign of how far the Republicans have shifted to the right and embraced Islamophobia as a political tool that movement figures like Gingrich, Bolton, and Breitbart now have no problem sharing a stage with Wilders.
http://blogs.alternet.org/spea...

Palin of course is already part of the act. It is interesting to observe that, except for John Bolton, the Neoconservatives are not on board, yet. Keep tuned in.

You may not recognize all the names, but just think Tony Blair.

by shergald on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 12:39:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

shergald:

You're complicit in this anti-Islamic campaign

Who is this 'you' you imply I am a member of?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 12:40:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

'YOU' all need to convert to Islam and help build some more mosques to prove that you're not racist bigots.

by Lynch on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 01:04:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

Thanks for discovering Wilders to us, without you we wouldn't know about him.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 12:43:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Well, can you take the SOB back. We don't need him in American politics, just as we don't need Sarah Palin in American politics. Did you know that the 20 year old who screwed her daughter is running for mayor of an Alaskan town?

We need help over here and you Euros are doing a thing to lend a hand.

by shergald on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 12:54:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

shergald:

Did you know that the 20 year old who screwed her daughter is running for mayor of an Alaskan town?

Yes, I am aware of all internet traditions.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 01:14:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

shergald:

You may not recognize all the names

ROFL

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 12:43:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

and they ate strange food, for another.

So did the Italians. Here is the NYT in an anti-garlic article from 1888. They were terrorists too, as in the 9/16 Wall Street bombing.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 12:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

And where would Europe be today if it were not for garlic? It's the only reason we have to love Europe and why many Americans go back over there every year, the garlic.

My only problem with it is that I still can't tell whether garlic is used in Irish corned beef and cabbage, which I love, when I can find it.

by shergald on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 12:50:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

I strongly recommend you try porchetta. GREAT Italian dish with LOTS of garlic.

by Lynch on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 01:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Americans are against fat, haven't you heard? So tell me what the leanest Italian salami is and I'll look for it.

On the other hand, they keep saying that lean salami is an oxymoron.

by shergald on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 01:18:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

Euro-posts?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 12:18:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

Shut your mouth, you Euro-poster.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Aug 16th, 2010 at 12:38:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

LMAO

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 01:30:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

America just has to get over its Islamophobia just as we are starting to get over Black racism

Just...wow.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 01:35:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque | 114 comments (114 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

Trump Tweeting Violence Against Rioters

European sovereignty : All Hail Mutti the Great

City Agriculture - May 30, 2020

PPE Scandal In the Trump Swamp @DC

The Primacy of EU law

Countering Karlsruhe

Karlsruhe and German exceptionalism

Chloroquine Clinical Trials - Oxford U & Bill Gates

Recent Diaries

CDC Under Fire: Redfield and Birx Faulty History

City Agriculture - May 30, 2020

Trump Tweeting Violence Against Rioters

Countering Karlsruhe

The Primacy of EU law

June 2020

Chloroquine Clinical Trials - Oxford U & Bill Gates

Karlsruhe and German exceptionalism

European sovereignty : All Hail Mutti the Great

PPE Scandal In the Trump Swamp @DC

Test Test Test

Shelving CDC Guidelines, Economy Prioritized

Trump Hoax: We'll Sue China for MEGA Debt

Sacrificing Lives to Save Capital

Structural Assembly of SARS-CoV-2 Virus

Churchill and VE Day -- 8 May 1945

Laissez-faire Handling Outbreak by PM Boris Johnson

Occasional Series