Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque | 114 comments (114 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 2)

Sadly, many of the characteristics observed in Saudi Arabia can also be seen in other countries run by Islamic theocracies - Iran, Morocco, Egypt, ... etc.

I would laugh if this weren't so sad.

Your claim that Morocco and Egypt are run by Islamic theocracies demonstrates that either you don't know what you're talking about or that you think whoever will read you doesn't know better and will lap up any drivel.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 04:26:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

What is 'drivel'? The description of Saudi Arabia? You're the one who obviously knows nothing of this region.
Although Egypt's regime is clearly softer than Saudi Arabia's, Islam is clearly at the heart of both society's laws, values and behaviors. You've never been there - have you? Did you know that in Egypt, a non Muslim can't marry a Muslim unless he/she converts?

by Lynch on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 04:39:21 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

That doesn't make it a theocracy.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 04:41:42 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles (4.00 / 2)

My own experience of Iran, Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Kuwait - 25 years ago or more, and thus perhaps irrelevant - is that 'theocracy' was equivalent in cultural importance to 'Conservatism' or 'Socialism'. I.e. it was not how most people in those countries conducted their lives.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 05:09:27 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

Would you say Christianity is at the heart of European society's laws, values and behaviours? Does that make France a theocracy?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 04:45:56 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

No I wouldn't. Would you?
In fact, as you probably know, religion and the state are officially separated in France.

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 02:03:39 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

As you should know there's a difference between:

Freedom of conscience
State secularism
Separation of church and state.

For instance, France and the US both have separation of church and state. However France does not have freedom of conscience to the extent that the US does while the US is not secular. The Lutheran North of Europe does not have separation of church and state, but they do have secular states and freedom of conscience.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 03:08:08 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

In the US, we have something called "blue laws" that in counties that have adopted them, prohibit the purchase of liquor on Sunday mornings or all day Sunday. It is widely known that these laws are pushed by Christian clergy and sects. Why? Possibly there is a fear that parishioners may get drunk and forget to attend services. Or perhaps it's conceived as a blow to the Devil.

But it is still an area where church-state separation faulters.

by shergald on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 08:50:07 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Migeru:

France does not have freedom of conscience to the extent that the US does

Could you explain?

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 10:00:25 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Scientology is banned. I'm sure many other religions are.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 10:11:01 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 1)

Scientology is not banned (they have offices in many cities). As an organisation, the French branch of the Church of Scientology has been convicted of organised swindling, Thanks to a loophole in the law, the organisation hasn't been dissolved.

About "many other religions" that you claim are banned in France, could you elaborate?

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 10:31:22 AM EST
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Scientology (4.00 / 1)

is not "banned". However, it is not recognised by the Ministry of the Interior as a religion, so it does not benefit from various special privileges granted to religions with respect to other forms of organisation.

For example, the "Church" of Scientology has been "persecuted" in France by being billed for taxes, as it made considerable profits, which is incompatible with its status as a registered non-profit association.

I believe it currently operates in France as a company (SARL).

I'm not clear on how this relates to freedom of conscience.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 10:53:17 AM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

I'm not clear on how this relates to freedom of conscience.

eurogreen:

However, it is not recognised by the Ministry of the Interior as a religion, so it does not benefit from various special privileges granted to religions with respect to other forms of organisation.

It appears the French State is in the business of recognizing and granting various privileges to religions, too? So what does that make of secularity and separation of church and state.

My whole point in any case is that attributing special importance to platonic ideals of secularity, separation of church and state, or freedom of conscience, or whether some state or other is a theocracy, is not only fraught with problems when one tries to make the terms precise in relationship with real-life examples, but is also not very instructive in the end.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 11:14:47 AM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

Well at least Greenspan admitted, finally, that he fucked up on Bush tax policy. Is this an example of freedom of conscience, to say I screwed up?

A lot good it will do us over here, when the costs of the Bush tax breaks for the wealthy, which caused enormous deficits, will have to be paid for by the middle class. If the right wing Republicans get their way and estend them, of course, the middle class will have to pay even more.

by shergald on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 12:12:45 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 1)

Don't the US grant privileges to religious organisations, too? Taxes come to mind.

Migeru:

My whole point in any case is that attributing special importance to platonic ideals of secularity, separation of church and state, or freedom of conscience, or whether some state or other is a theocracy, is not only fraught with problems when one tries to make the terms precise in relationship with real-life examples, but is also not very instructive in the end.

On this we certainly agree. And it's the most important point.

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 12:26:06 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

I would disagree. In a theocracy, the concepts of law and religion are one and the same. In modern Western societies (although the Ancient Greeks also based their socio-political order on this principle) the law is built more on the system of philosophical thought. The latter can change basd on social priorities at a given time. The former is immutable.

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 01:54:41 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 1)

That may be the funniest set of errors I've read in a long time.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 03:14:34 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

You're gonna have to do better than that buddy :)

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 04:53:19 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

Ok that's the most utterly ridiculous set of errors he's seen in a long time.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 05:11:33 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

Are you capable of AR-TI-CU-LA-TING ?

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 05:14:30 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (4.00 / 2)

Yes I am, but don't know as it's really worth my while

I would disagree. In a theocracy, the concepts of law and religion are one and the same.

Thats an extremely narrow view of what a theocracy, Iran by your description does not qualify as a Theocracy (In fact no government in the world qualifies by this standard)

In modern Western societies (although the Ancient Greeks also based their socio-political order on this principle) the law is built more on the system of philosophical thought.

Well your knowledge of Greek government is sadly lacking too (In fact a majority of ancient Greek city states would qualify more as Theocracies than Iran would) The idea that Modern western government is based on systems of philosophical thought is stretching things extremely. Influenced by yes, but ascribing a secular basis is an amazing reach that should be beyond any honest consideration

The latter can change basd on social priorities at a given time. The former is immutable.

Well that statement avoids any knowledge of history The world changes, so even the most severe Theocracy is going to be faced with changing situations, making Immutability an impossibility. Theocracies also have a history of changing as social priorities change, for example, the marriage of priests in the Vatican has at times been allowed and not allowed, and has changed in accordance with social changes inside the church

So Basically on the three major points inside your statement, youre wrong on all of them, badly

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 04:34:39 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

Not only are you arrogant, but you're also ignorant. Those two really don't breed promising offspring when they form a couple.

Regardless... as the issues exposed in this sub-thread merited a more detailed analysis, I took the liberty to publish a diary entitled "On Religion and the Law" which might be insightful to you. In that diary, you and Colman will have ample room (if you so choose) to explain why what I said constitutes the funniest, most utterly ridiculous set of errors you've seen in a long time. Then again, if you opt to respectfully walk away from that discussion, I will certainly understand.

by Lynch on Fri Aug 20th, 2010 at 03:34:37 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 1)

Id hardly say im Ignorant, or should I ask the university who gave me a degree where I spent a good deal of time studying ancient Greek philosophy and politics for my money back?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Fri Aug 20th, 2010 at 09:59:07 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

Take the money.

by shergald on Fri Aug 20th, 2010 at 11:04:48 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

I take it that's a 'NO'

by Lynch on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 01:33:12 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

There is also the issue of conscience clauses. Such privileges are examples of "freedom of conscience."

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 01:57:05 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

I don't think it's specific to religions. I think it's nonprofits in general. I may be wrong, though.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 12:31:39 PM EST
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Re: Scientology (none / 0)

Sort of.

Recognised religions have stronger protections under US law due to the 1st Amendment than other nonprofits.

So who recognises religions? Well, that's where it gets funny. I suppose the IRS does. Or the courts, if the religion in question disagrees with the IRS ruling...

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Aug 22nd, 2010 at 06:14:50 PM EST
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Freedom of conscience (none / 1)

So, let's see : the fact that some alleged religions are granted special status, and others not, is a freedom of conscience issue? Sounds more like a tax issue to me. Or is that the same thing? Obviously, there's a judgement call involved.

Ad absurdam : can I register my business as a religion? Please?

I agree with your (apparent) point that eliminating all recognition of religion by the state is the only option entirely consistent with secularity. The only real problem with this is how to handle the Catholic real estate.

However, I dispute your larger point that the debate is not very instructive. A real-life example : I take strong issue to the fact that I can not marry a citizen of (for example) Israel or Morocco without converting to the religion into which my potential bride was born (and perhaps not even then). This is an intolerable infringement of human rights, and a consequence of those governments delegating the institution of marriage to religious authorities. I'm sure you'll agree that the citizens of both countries would be objectively better off if this delegation ceased, i.e. if marriage were secularized.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 06:08:33 AM EST
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Re: Freedom of conscience (none / 0)

eurogreen:

Ad absurdam : can I register my business as a religion? Please?

L. Ron Hubbard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some documents written by Hubbard himself suggest he regarded Scientology as a business, not a religion. In one letter dated April 10, 1953, he says that calling Scientology a religion solves "a problem of practical business [...] A religion charter could be necessary in Pennsylvania or NJ to make it stick."^[111] In a 1962 policy letter, he said that Scientology "is being planned on a religious organization basis throughout the world. This will not upset in any way the usual activities of any organization. It is entirely a matter for accountants and solicitors."^[111] However, in his work, Hubbard emphasizes the importance of spirit and mind over the physical body. He says, "... The body can be best studied in such books as Gray's Anatomy and other anatomical texts. This is the province of the medical doctor and, usually, the old-time psychiatrist or psychologist who were involved in the main in body worship."^[112]

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 06:15:06 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Scientology is banned.

Scientology isn't a religion. It's a Ponzi scam with an expanded vocabulary and a vicious authoritarian streak.

Of course, the same could be said of some parts of the Roman Catholic Church, but Scientology is generally considered to go farther in the mind-rape department (and is a lot more consistent about it).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Aug 22nd, 2010 at 06:27:32 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

As you know, the EPP which is the biggest political party in Europe and its French member party the UMP and your President Zarkozy do say such things about Christian roots on occasion. That doesn't make Europe or France a theocracy...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 03:10:39 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 2)

But describing Egypt as a Theocracy or saying that many of the characteristics of Saudi Arabia exist there are a thing that most Egyptians would be mortally insulted by.I have been there before you start.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 04:53:21 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

While technically not theocracies, these societies run with Islam at the core. I watched Hosni Mubarak on TV on a number of occasions making speaches to Parliament or the Egyptian people. 'Allah' and 'Islam' were so omnipresent, you'd think he was an Imam.
Regarding Morocco, the royal family claims to descend from Mahomet!

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 02:07:54 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 3)

I watched ~~Hosni Mubarak~~[insert favourite US President] on TV on a number of occasions making speaches to ~~Parliament~~Congress or the ~~Egyptian~~American people. ~~'Allah'~~'God' and ~~'Islam'~~'Faith' were so omnipresent, you'd think he was an ~~Imam~~preacher.

And your point is? That the US is a theocracy even before Palin becomes President?

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 03:03:07 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

There is a huge difference in the order of magnitude.

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 01:01:03 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 2)

You're right. The United States is a huge country and the world's dominating superpower. Egypt or Moroocco are nothing in comparison.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 03:35:02 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 4)

Regarding Morocco, the royal family claims to descend from Mahomet!

I believe the Queen of England is so by the Grace of God...

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 03:04:56 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 2)

Worse: the Queen of England is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 10:07:41 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

True, dat.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 10:11:20 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

You could be describing Israel's attitudes, and laws, pertaining to mixed marriages between Arabs and Jews, or the many laws that describe Jewish-Arab segregation.

And so what does any of this have to do with Islamic terrorism, and groups that sponsor it? Iran likely sponsors and financially supports Hamas and Hezbollah, but that is support of terrorism only if you believe the US State Department, since bought and paid for by Israel.

Just who is keeping who under military occupation and stealing whose lands? Ever hear of state terrorism?

by shergald on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 07:43:21 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Just to be clear, this doesn't imply Israel is a theocracy. It's just full of religious nuts and theocrat wannabees.

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 03:04:22 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Actually the term "ethnocracy" has been widely applied to what the Israel government has or is attempting to create in Israel. However, the government's support of extremist religious groups participating in ethnic cleansing in the Palestinian territories does suggest some overlap of the idea of religion and ethnicity.

by shergald on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 08:54:32 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

some overlap of the idea of religion and ethnicity in the case of Judaism? You don't say!

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 09:04:34 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Iran likely sponsors and financially supports Hamas and Hezbollah

Hezbollah, almost certainly. Hamas, OTOH, I find harder to believe, seeing as they have historical ties with Iraq and Saudi Arabia, neither of which has ever been a bosom buddy with Iran.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Aug 22nd, 2010 at 06:26:14 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

This guy makes up stuff as he goes along. Well, if you repat lies enough you can always get some people to believe them.

by shergald on Tue Aug 17th, 2010 at 07:36:20 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

LOL. Precisely WHAT am I making up?

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 02:08:22 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

It is idiotic for you to come here and attempt to conflate Islam and terrorism or even theocracy and terrorism, especially since many of your statements above imply a total ignorance of the subjects.

by shergald on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 08:57:03 AM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

You're waffling.

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 01:00:15 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

You're trolling.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 01:21:31 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Perhaps you could explain?

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 01:46:44 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Wikpiedia: Theocracy is a form of government in which a god or deity is recognized as the state's supreme civil ruler,[1] or in a higher sense, a form of government in which a state is governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided. In Common Greek, "theocracy" means a rule [kra′tos] by God [the.os′]. For believers, theocracy is a form of government in which divine power governs an earthly human state, either in a personal incarnation or, more often, via religious institutional representatives (i.e., a church), replacing or dominating civil government. Theocratic governments enact theonomic laws. Theocracy should be distinguished from other secular forms of government that have a state religion, or are merely influenced by theological or moral concepts, and monarchies held "By the Grace of God". A theocracy may be monist in form, where the administrative hierarchy of the government is identical with the administrative hierarchy of the religion, or it may have two 'arms,' but with the state administrative hierarchy subordinate to the religious hierarchy.

Now, for Morocco and Egypt.

Morocco: The ruler of this country - Mohammed IV is a proclaimed descendant of the infallible Prophet Mahomet; he retains the ultimate authority to dissolve the legislature, to appoint or dismiss the Prime Minister and members of his cabinet. This is NOT anecdotal and is significantly more "theocratic" by nature than governing "By the Grace of God" (and BTW - "govern" the Queen of England does not). Furthermore, Morocco's penal code is rooted in Sharia which is openly promulgated by the Government. Given this, one can effectively argue that Morocco is a form of theocracy.

Egypt: The original text of Article 2 of the 1971 Egyptian Constitution read: 'Islam is the religion of the State, Arabic is its official language, and the principles of Islamic Sharia are a principal source of legislation.' On May 22, 1980, the text of Article 2 was changed to read, 'Islam is the religion of the State, Arabic is its official language, and the principles of Islamic Sharia are THE principal source of legislation.' The result of this amendment effectively transformed Egypt into a 'constitutional theocracy,' in which no legislation could contravene Islamic legal principles. The widespread existence of official, government-established Sharia courts in Egypt (as in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Sudan, Yemen) provide further evidence of the theocratic nature of Egyptian government. That this fact mortally offends some Egyptians changes not the fact that there are similarities between the Egyptian and the Saudi Arabian social orders.

The law being a direct expression of political orientation, one can say that the political system in these two countries subjects its citizens to God's Word Will and Law. That's not theocratic?

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 12:59:38 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 2)

You could at least try to get some basic facts right if you're going to post on here.

The current ruler of Morocco is Mohammed VI, not Mohammed IV. E.g. Mohammed VI of Morocco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mohammed VI is generally opposed by Islamist conservatives, and some of his reforms have angered fundamentalists. He also created a new family code, or Mudawana, which granted women more power.^[3]

Quite the firebrand theocrat.

As for Egypt - how many allegedly Sharia stonings have there been there recently?

Of course to the nuttier fringes of the neo-con West all Arabic countries are the same by definition, so it's unrealistic to expect to any nuance, experience or local insight.

So far you're doing an excellent job of living down to that assessment.

Did you know that Canada is a theocracy too?

ICL - Canada - Constitution Act 1982

Whereas Canada is founded upon the principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

So are Germany, Ireland, Australia, and the Bahamas - among others.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 01:46:01 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

May I suggest that you go to Wikipedia and change the definition of what a theocracy is by adding: "the characteristic of theocracies is when there are Sharia stonings". You can also add: "Germany, Ireland, Austria and the Bahamas - among others, are theocracies." Don't forget to sign and add your e-mail to the post.

by Lynch on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 02:03:11 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 1)

And what the hell does any of this have to do with Al Qaeda terrorism and 9/11? My inklings tell me that you are pushing Islamophobia, hate for Islam in support of the right wing Zionists and Neocons here in America.

Yet your persistent historical and substantive errors seem to make you totally unqualified to discuss anything in this area. Why don't you give it up?

by shergald on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 02:20:16 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Why should we do that? I don't think that anyone here believes that?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Aug 18th, 2010 at 05:13:32 PM EST
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Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Huh? It's really Rhetoric 101.

Lych: gives Wikipedia's definition of what a theocratic state is - one that is governed by immediate divine guidance... whose officials are regarded as divinely guided... which enacts theonomic laws. It can be argued that this is the case in Egypt given that its constitution stipulates that Sharia (read: infallible, theonomic law) is THE principal source of the country's legislation, and that its executive branch applies this divine legislation through state sponsored Sharia courts.

ThatBritGuy responds by saying: "Egypt can't be a theocracy coz there haven't been any Sahria stonings lately"... and goes on to say that "if this is your definition [it's Wikipedia's, not mine] of what a theocratic state is then Canada, Germany, Ireland, Australia and the Bahamas - among others - are also theocratic states"

If ThatBritGuy so firmly believes what he wrote, I suggest he amend Wikipedia to reflect his beliefs, either:
a) by adding something like "theocracies are governed by immediate divine guidance... practicing Sharia stoning" or
b) by leaving the definition as is and adding something like "according to this definition, Canada, Germany, Ireland, Australia and the Bahamas - among others - are theocratic states" or
c) by enlightening us all with his very own, completely different definition.

For the record - I never said that Saudi Arabia and Egypt (or all Arabic countries for that matter) were the same. What I said was that there were similarities between some of these countries. That, surprisingly, seems to be an indiscernible nuance to some around here who, instead of trying to understand the broader picture of what is being discussed, take the time and energy to point out a typo (IV instead of VI) thinking that it will somehow give more weight to their arguments. Also, I am not what you would refer to as a Neo-Con... nor am I Sarah Palin's admirer. That's such a grossly simplistic way of interpreting our (much more complex) socio-political landscape.

by Lynch on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 01:32:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles (none / 0)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 12:40:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (4.00 / 2)

Lynch:

he retains the ultimate authority to dissolve the legislature, to appoint or dismiss the Prime Minister and members of his cabinet.

So he is a monarch with real powers. As commonly the case with monarchs, the position is inherited.

Lynch:

For believers, theocracy is a form of government in which divine power governs an earthly human state, either in a personal incarnation or, more often, via religious institutional representatives (i.e., a church), replacing or dominating civil government.

I.e. if Morocco was a theocracy, their ruler would be appointed (in a real, not just formal way) by the church.

If theocracy is defined as a) a monarch with real powers (absolute or limited by constitution) who b) claims authority by divine will (grace of god, descendant of prophet/god) and c) enacts laws that lends support from religious texts, then most of the world prior to the 20th century would be defined as theocracies. I find such a definition less useful.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 06:23:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Since the Wikipedia entry about theocracy has been mentioned, maybe this further precision could help clarify some disputed notions:

Theocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theocracy should be distinguished from other secular forms of government that have a state religion, or are merely influenced by theological or moral concepts, and monarchies held "By the Grace of God".

That's what we've been saying haven't we?

Also:

For believers, theocracy is a form of government in which divine power governs an earthly human state, either in a personal incarnation or, more often, via religious institutional representatives (i.e., a church), replacing or dominating civil government

(my emphasis)

By this definition, the Vatican comes up on top.

by Bernard on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 07:49:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Furtermore, theocracy is not caesaropapism

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 09:04:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 1)

All hail nominalism!

By laying out pros and cons we risk inducing people to join the debate, and losing control of a process that only we fully understand. - Alan Greenspan

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 09:08:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Amusing examples of French Presidents and powerless Queens aside, what would be comparable to the current Egyptian system is if the (let's say French) Constitution proclaimed Catholic Canon Law as being supreme in the interpretation of civil and penal justice, and if the state financed Catholic Tribunals to administer that Canon Law throughout France. If that were the case, you'd all be screaming that France is an oppressive, freedomless, bigoted theocracy. Of course, you'd have a valid point. And yet at the same time, you're all arguing that Egypt isn't a theocracy and that I'm producing... what was the word? Drivel? Inquisitive indeed, and just so arrogant!

I fail to understand why so many of you go out of your way to defend (or at least ignore) Islam's excesses while at the same time being so quick to denigrate Christianity and the Jews. Instead of criticizing Wahhabist bigotry on ET, we get "Yellow Crescents Armband Alerts". While it's certainly commendable to denounce racism, it's outright dangerous to denounce it in a unilateral manner because doing so will just exacerbate racism on both sides.

by Lynch on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 01:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Lynch:

you go out of your way to defend (or at least ignore) Islam's excesses while at the same time being so quick to denigrate Christianity and the Jews.

Perfect strawman. So, saying that Egypt is not a theocracy means defending Islam's excesses (whatever that means)? We simply don't accept your narrative equating Islam and terrorism, period.

And could you please tell us when we denigrated the Jews? Or Christianity?

FYI, I have lived more than ten years in Arab countries, including Morocco and Saudi Arabia, so I am well aware of the oppression and crimes that are committed in the name of Islam...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 02:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

I'm not sure we're reading the same thread. Perhaps you could point out where I equate Islam with terrorism.

by Lynch on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 03:44:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Lynch:

he retains the ultimate authority to dissolve the legislature, to appoint or dismiss the Prime Minister and members of his cabinet.

So does the President of the French Republic...

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 06:37:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

Oh, and by the way, the President of the French Republic, as the successor of the French kings, is canon of many churches, starting with the The Papal Archbasilica of St. John Lateran

Les titres de chanoine du président de la République française

Le président de la République française est ainsi, en tant que chef de l'État et successeur des rois de France :
premier chanoine de l'Archibasilique de Saint-Jean-du-Latran
proto-chanoine de la cathédrale d'Embrun (proto-chanoine : c'est le titre du premier des chanoines, qui a préséance sur tous les autres chanoines)
proto-chanoine de Notre-Dame de Cléry
chanoine honoraire de la cathédrale de Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne
chanoine honoraire de l'église de Saint-Hilaire de Poitiers
chanoine honoraire de l'église de Saint-Martin de Tours
chanoine honoraire de l'église de Saint-Martin d'Angers
chanoine honoraire de l'église de Saint-Martin de Chalons

"Ce qui vient au monde pour ne rien troubler ne mérite ni égards ni patience." René Char

by Melanchthon on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 06:51:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque (none / 0)

...and let's not forget: co-prince of the principality of Andorra, along with the Bishop of Urgell, Catalonia, Spain

by Bernard on Thu Aug 19th, 2010 at 07:35:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama waffles on the Ground Zero mosque | 114 comments (114 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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