Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics | 69 comments (69 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (4.00 / 5)

Yes, in so far as I have not seen a leftist government do a radical push for co-op's or other forms that would give power directly to the workers. Closest the swedish soc-dems came in 44 years of consecutive power (no, I am not counting the break in the summer of 1936) was a program to grant stock power to the unions, administered by union bosses.

Most what they did accomplish in ways of building movements that were controlled by those working in them, was accomplished while in a harsh opposition role. I think the need and desire to build organisations went away as they began to see state power as the main mean, held by party elite for the benefits of party elite.

Maybe soc-dems and commies were both wrong. The important thing is not wheter state power is conquered by elections or by force, but that state power forms the parties into being another owner instead of a mean to get power of the means of production into the hands of the proletariat.

So what then? Maybe back to the 19th century also-rans anarchists and utopian socialist. Maybe study why some co-ops does not get captured and combine with new organisational models such as those Chris pushes.

But it appears to be a Gordian knot. If the state is conquered by socialists, it eats the socialists. And if the state is not conquered by socialists, it also tends to eat the socialists (back in the 1930ies, when Coop was better functioning and dangerous, they had a thick file at the security service).

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sat May 28th, 2011 at 03:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (4.00 / 2)

The old left had the problem that its roots were industrial, so there was a tendency to think of "jobs" and "worker participation" in centralised, large-scale, industrial terms.

That was partly the legacy of Marx, for whom the "means of production" were industrial.

There are signs it's starting to ease, and there's a hint of a tendency towards diversification and more free and organic forms of participation.

What's missing on the left at the moment - at least in the UK - is the usual need to move beyond oppositional theatre (e.g. UKUncut) towards demanding seats at the policy table for all issues, not just single-issue campaigns.

That may be starting to happen in Spain. We'll see.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun May 29th, 2011 at 10:55:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (none / 0)

That was partly the legacy of ~~Marx~~ Engels, for whom the "means of production" were industrial.

FIFY.

(I'm increasingly convinced that what most Marxians represent as Marx's views are as much an unkind caricature as what most Liberals present Adam Smith's views to be.)

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun May 29th, 2011 at 06:52:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (4.00 / 2)

Kind of. Marx did the abstraction thing, but given the time in which he was writing, he also mentioned "industry" rather a lot.

And when most workers were industrial workers, it's not totally surprising that (say) the Soviets and the Maoists) turned him into a kind of angry patron of worker-deified industrial revolution.

If there's a lacuna in Marx, it's exactly that absence of realistic post-industrial alternatives.

There's not a lot of nature in Marx. There are people, and there are machines and resources, but he knew nothing about eco-systems or symbiotic embedding, so they're not included as original Marxist concepts.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun May 29th, 2011 at 07:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (4.00 / 2)

Much of the time what American "liberals" say when they say, "I believe in some of what Adam Smith said, but I also believe in ..." is a better representation of what Smith said in the second half than in the first.

Of course, no free market propaganda mill pays to get large numbers of cheap copies of Theory of Moral Sentiment reprinted.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon May 30th, 2011 at 12:22:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (none / 0)

Hell, I'd be satisfied if people would actually read Wealth of Nations, rather than having it on display on their bookshelf to impress their friends (or, even worse, read abridged versions edited by people who have never read anything but abridged versions in the first place...).

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon May 30th, 2011 at 12:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (none / 1)

For a while, The Liberty Press (subsidiary of the Liberty Fund, (not far from a free market propaganda mill, though with some "class" ---now apparently defunct) ) did something reasonably close to that.

Liberty Press, Indianapolis, 1976 & 1984

The Theory of Moral Sentiments, Adam Smith

isbn: 0865970122

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Mon May 30th, 2011 at 12:48:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (none / 0)

I have classic full text editions of TMS and WON, both from Liberty Press and at excellent prices. Also works by David Hume. They used to offer scholarships for best essays on libertarian subjects. If they are no longer selling their full text editions of classic works that is a loss.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jun 13th, 2011 at 12:39:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We had to read it in grad school ... (none / 0)

... but few grad schools would require dogmatic history anymore, and, indeed, I believe that where I went would no longer require it after it tipped.

The problem was the number grinding mill attached, where despite 1/2 University appointments, they had full votes in the department.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Mon May 30th, 2011 at 12:54:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (none / 0)

..utopian socialist.

Who were these? F.Engels called "utopians" those who demanded reforms. Who had beliefs in mixed economy. He himself wanted total capitulation of markets without having not what so ever clue, how capital is allocated in the "dream" society.

Who was the utopian? Old leftist double speak and still no one in the left wants to be an "utopian." They are a hopeless case.

by kjr63 on Sun May 29th, 2011 at 11:55:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (4.00 / 2)

It is a broad (and from its origins pejorative) term for the pre-Marx and/or anti-Marx socialists.

My thoughts mainly went to the attemtps at communities to realise an alternative outside the realm of state power. But there is probably a lot more that has been downplayed by later socialists when the soc-dem/commie split became the major focal point.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sun May 29th, 2011 at 03:00:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics (none / 0)

I made the argument, following Polanyi, that the biggest Utopian experiment ever conducted was the implementation of Classical Economics in England in the 19th century. See WHO Are The Utopians? After all, based primarily on theory, the Classical Economists managed, with the not too surprising support of business, to convince politicians to totally restructure laws to make the society subservient to the economy -- a first in human history. In many ways this was more radical than what the Jacobins attempted in 18th Century France, and it largely succeeded. That success is the great grandfather of TINA!

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Jun 13th, 2011 at 12:48:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Herb Gintis critique of progressive economics | 69 comments (69 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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