Whispers From a Dark Past | 55 comments (55 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Whispers From a Dark Past (4.00 / 8)

Oh I'm quite sure these people still lurk. After all, most military organisations have their reunions; I know that the WWII German Afrika corps and British 8th Army organisations are nowadays practically joined at the hip. You'd have to be hopelessly naive to imagine that the SS are too ashamed to have their own reunions, and not just in Paraguay.

And should they wish to go somewhere nice and sunny, why not a "friendly" country ? And you don't get friendlier than an old ally, with whom you probably forged bonds of comradeship and shared philosophy (where do the Liga Nord get their support ?).

But do they have power ? Can they influence policy ? Yes and no. Yes in that these people have always been "connected" and America needed Germany to be run by somebody. Once the figureheads had had their showtrial germany was officially exonerated, they were the good guys, all that bad stuff was nothing to do with them. They were allies now, so forgive and forget.

But no in that they do not want a fourth reich. Do german bankers want to run the continent ? Of course, but all bankers want to be in control. The guys in the Bank of England and the French equivalent are probably grinding their teeth in jealousy that they can't set the rules for the impoverishment and plundering of europe.

Just as the guys in chicago and Wall st want to impoverish and plunder the world. It doesn't make them nazis but it certainly makes them dangerous. Only a fool would let them loose on the ...oh wait

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon May 9th, 2011 at 11:52:12 AM EST

Wait (4.00 / 2)

If you're discussing attitudes remaining, perhaps under new disguises, then your comment can be taken at face value, though i'm not certain that't enough to buy your thesis.

But if you're really talking about "these people," i might remind you that a 16-year old emergency conscript at the end of the war would be 82 this month. and most of his surviving comrades would be mid-80's to mid-90's. Commanders perhaps older. Thus not particularly dangerous. Nor even particularly present.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 03:58:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 1)

It was something of a two-part answer.

the function of the hotel was the "face value" bit, I should imagine they struggle for custom from the well connected who, as you point out, are largely dying away. And the new generation of Hitler venerators are too ignorant and working class to have the money to appreciate the finery of such a boutique establishment.

the second part dealt with the next generation, and possibly the third who were the beneficiaries of the SS generation's connections, have taken the attitudes and the necessary masks for operating amongst modern elites. they have seen german economic success through industry, seen it come to dominate european finance and see that as their natural environment.

However, I concede that the assimilation of the ossies has brought a different set of cultural values into modern germany that are more aligned with authoritarians. After all, what else was a E Germany but a dictatorship where such personality types fought it out in the most brutal Darwinianism. They're eating the old westerners for breakfast

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 04:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (4.00 / 3)

Also remember that the hotel story took place in 1993.

i don't buy your second premise, except of course there will be some SS children and grandchildren who fit the profile in a country as large as here.

But most Germans i've met fit a wide enough profile as to be indistinguishable from the profile of any other place in the west. Though Yurpeens have several distinct cultural advantages over their USian counterparts. But that's not under discussion here.

Most Germans buy into the attempt at making civilization more sustainable, no matter their political stripe. And they bury stereotyping better.

And i don't buy the premise on the "Ossies." If anything causes a difference, it's that there isn't enough money or jobs in the east. And places like Leipzig or Dresden are havens of progressive thought and art, even if not so much political power.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 04:25:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 0)

Oh yeah, and the Ossies don't eat the westerners for breakfast, no way, no kinda day.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 04:26:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 0)

I don't know where anyone could have gotten that idea from, other than Merkel grew up in the East.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 04:30:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 0)

Mathematicians shouldn't build a theory on one data point, especially if the data point is barely relevant to Merkel's success. she was the protegé of the western chancellor who shepherded reunification, no?

if the ossies were eating wessies for breakfast, we'd find a predominant number of them in positions of power, at the Bundesbank, for example.

Merkel is an ossie, and Helen's point is crap. So?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 06:38:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 0)

So, we're in agreement.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 11th, 2011 at 01:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 0)

There are some 'EU = Fourth Reich" comments doing the rounds on the conspiracy boards (...it was all planned that way, y' see) so I'm wary of ascribing too much credibility to this argument. It matches very neatly anglo nationalistic sentiments about how the EU is essentially pro-fascist and anti-sovereignty.

It may (arguably) pro-fascist and anti-sovereignty economically, but I've yet to be convinced that it's a deliberate aim of - say - the European Parliament.

The Nazis weren't primarily financiers - although they were sponsored by same. They were primarily propagandists and manipulators.

We do know, however, that aside from well-known Nazi assimilation operations like Project Paperclip there were other CIA-Nazi links that remain murky at best.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 04:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 0)

Haven't encountered those arguments, as I apparently don't read the right "conspiracy theory" blogs. The diary, as I said, stemmed from a conversation Miguel and I had about the drift toward (now a solid movement toward) German control in the EU.
As well, the old story about the Nazi resort hotel has always needed a good airing out.

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri May 13th, 2011 at 03:10:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 1)

93 is 18 years ago. Loads of SS still alive then.

And we're not discussing the bulk of the population here, we're talking about elites who are character and outlook-wise, culturally very different. And not even the pols, who are nowadays simply the paid agents of the elites, but the people who exist in the large marbled buildings who may be seen but rarely identified.

That's who this is about. It's like many Brits are nice people (-ish), but there are people at the top who are not very nice. There were people in the UK who, right up to the outbreak of WWII were very much in favour of Herr Hitler and felt that Britain could do with a touch of his reforms. They were well-connected then and their offspring remain well connected, they even own a prominent newspaper which has consistently promoted socially conservative viewpoints since the 30s. And they run things here too.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue May 10th, 2011 at 05:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 1)

And we're not discussing the bulk of the population here, we're talking about elites who are character and outlook-wise, culturally very different. And not even the pols, who are nowadays simply the paid agents of the elites, but the people who exist in the large marbled buildings who may be seen but rarely identified.
That's who this is about. It's like many Brits are nice people (-ish), but there are people at the top who are not very nice. There were people in the UK who, right up to the outbreak of WWII were very much in favour of Herr Hitler and felt that Britain could do with a touch of his reforms.

Exactly.
In the US the Hearst newspaper chain sang the praises of Hitler right up to pear harbor.

The German culture was, like the American one, steeped in dominance dreams and self-deceptive justifications for same.
America remains in the same bloody teapot today. Under the brass plaques and apparent progressivism, ---does Germany?

Capitalism searches out the darkest corners of human potential, and mainlines them.

by geezer in Paris (risico at wanadoo(flypoop)fr) on Fri May 13th, 2011 at 03:16:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wait (none / 1)

despots are manifested in easily swayed, groupthink-habituated populations.

the same social genepool that creates unthinking loyalty to the 'patria' or state, can work in a positive direction when channeled into civic pride, social cohesion, and collaborative citizenry.

education is thus the linchpin of democracy, without history's hindsight we become condemned to repeat these obvious evolutionary dead-end roads.

our intellects thrive on complexity, when configured for curiosity. configured badly, they seek the familiar, simplistic port-in-a-storm refuge of nationalism-uber-alles and such monkey business...

critical thinking can be allied with vivid imagination, it just doesn't happen very often.

global vision can merrily unite with local activism, but the potency of that combo is not lost on our DL's.

until we connect the top (political elites) with the bottom (grassroots), we keep trying to make right merge with left instead, ignoring the vertical axis.

the latter, (L/R), is pure distraction, for vying for centrism makes politics bloodless, while still a killer sport... what matters is throwing off the present class yokes, and subbing with new concepts of excellence and distinction based on reality. for this we need to understand how economics is woven agenda, the warp to politics' woof....literally!

how we get there from here needs to be re-invented every day, as the whole game of human life-as-we-know-it is teetering on the verge of unviability. inventing new flavours of ice cream to sell in hell is not a business model...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri May 13th, 2011 at 07:04:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Whispers From a Dark Past | 55 comments (55 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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