The Portuguese suicide | 53 comments (52 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: The Portuguese suicide (none / 0)

When empires collapse the results can be quite devastating to a large number of people.

How long did it take to recover from the collapse of the Roman Empire?

Can't say I'm going to miss the US either, but I'm not at all looking forwards to the pain that is going to come.

_{aspiring to genteel poverty}

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Jun 20th, 2011 at 03:55:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (4.00 / 2)

I would be a lot less worried about the time it will take to recover from the collapse of the American empire, and a lot more about the fact that any half-way serious succession crisis is likely to involve casualties counted in eight or nine figures.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jun 20th, 2011 at 03:59:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (none / 0)

It didn't take that long to recover from the Spanish, French, British, Austrian, Ottoman or Russian empires.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Jun 20th, 2011 at 04:34:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (4.00 / 2)

If there is a replacement in the wings - say a European Union - then maybe. Otherwise I'll go with JakeS for 8 or 9 figures.

_{aspiring to genteel poverty}

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Jun 20th, 2011 at 06:57:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (none / 0)

Not sure about that. If you combine victims of African civil wars you get a rather large number.

by Jute on Wed Jun 22nd, 2011 at 03:07:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (none / 0)

And longer time. Other longer-term effects of these imperial collaspes were the Balkan Wars, partially the Lebanon and Iraq civil wars, the WWII-era Central European ethnic cleansings, the Pakistan/India wars. Though the death toll relative to the total population is still much less and the timescale is still far shorter than for the Roman Empire.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jun 22nd, 2011 at 04:22:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (none / 0)

Aw c'mon, it's like being constipated and needing to take a huge shit. Yeah, it hurts, might be a little bloody, but if you don't do it now, it'll only be worse when you do, or ... what? Go ahead, try to give up shitting. Let me know how that works out.

They tried to assimilate me. They failed.

by THE Twank (yatta blah blah @ blah.com) on Mon Jun 20th, 2011 at 04:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (none / 0)

Not proposing to try and prop up a dead horse. I agree that the longer it hangs in there the worse it will be.

_{aspiring to genteel poverty}

by edwin (eeeeeeee222222rrrrreeeeeaaaaadddddd@@@@yyyyaaaaaaa) on Mon Jun 20th, 2011 at 07:01:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (4.00 / 2)

How long did it take to recover from the collapse of the Roman Empire?

This is often overstated. The parts of the Empire that collapsed into the dark ages were the parts that had never been civilized (as in, having a well-established and indigenous culture of cities, settled life, and state-level social organization). Minus Italy, the parts of the Empire that had long traditions of civilization survived and thrived in the post-Roman period. And Italy had been so destroyed by the Roman slave-economy that it hardly even counted as civilized by the time the empire ended, and what veneer of civilization that remained was destroyed in the Byzantine re-conquest.

by Zwackus on Tue Jun 21st, 2011 at 05:53:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (4.00 / 2)

the parts that had never been civilized (as in, having a well-established and indigenous culture of cities, settled life, and state-level social organization)

Hm. Which ones would that be? Cities like London, Paris, Cologne, Marseille, Barcelona, Carthago, Cherchell, Carnuntum had that for at least three centuries, which I'd count as well-established, but there were Dark Ages at all places. These regions didn't just choose neo-barbarism on a whim, they were overrun by Germanic tribes who first pillaged then took control. But then in most places, in spite of the population loss, the existing majority populations with well-established settled life culturally assimilated their rulers (see the success of Church Latin, Athanasian Christianity, Romance local languages in France and Spain).

Italy had been so destroyed by the Roman slave-economy

What do you mean? Wasn't there slave economy on all parts of the empire?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Jun 22nd, 2011 at 04:39:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Portuguese suicide (none / 0)

The difference between France, Spain, England and North Africa and what became the Byzantine Empire is that the basic character of The West^<tt.TM</tt> was changed to a greater extent than was the case further east. The whole half millennium from 500-1,000 AD in the west was a period of synthesis and regeneration of social and political institutions, integrating the previous traditions with those of the German tribes that had invaded. And, of course, North Africa and Spain were overwhelmed by Islam about half way through this period.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Jun 24th, 2011 at 10:35:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Portuguese suicide | 53 comments (52 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

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