The four oxen and the lion | 36 comments (36 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

The EU is in a phase of strengthening supra-national institutions and the EPP wants to do that under its own terms.

That would be nice (even if the EPP held the reins) but it's not what's happening. what we're seeing is more inter-governmental stuff and in particular big countries, led by France and Germany, trying to impose a directorate on everybody else.

This has long been a temptation of France, which Germany used to resist, with the help of federalist countries like the Benelux, but now that the Dutch are on the side of the "we are virtuous and want the evil Southerners to pay for -their- our banks' sins" they are helping the German attempts.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 05:07:07 AM EST

Re: If only (none / 1)

That would be nice (even if the EPP held the reins)

No, that wouldn't be nice. See what creating the ECB has wrought.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 05:44:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There is a difference (none / 1)

between what is done by EU institutions without political legitimacy what is done by EU institutions with political legitimacy and right wing leadership.

It may look the same, but in one case, they do the "common wisdom" of the Serious People (ie, TINA) whereas in the other case they do rightwing policies which can be fought off as such, and reversed once you get a left wing leadership.

If people vote for rightwing governments, they can't complain about rightwing policies. If they vote for leftwing governments and get rightwing policies or TINA, then they have a right to be pissed.

EU institutions with clear political legitimacy/responsibility would be a massive progress.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 06:48:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: There is a difference (none / 0)

That is a distinction without a difference, because you're not considering the issue of institutions set up by right-wing governments, which institutionalise TINA.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 08:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There is a difference (none / 0)

between institutional rules and political legitimacy. Both can impose or change policies, but only one (political legitimacy) can change the other.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 09:23:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Talking past each other, as usual. (none / 0)

Please answer this question.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 09:43:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If only (none / 0)

Is this the kind of "supranational institution" you would allow the EPP to set up?

"Would it go too far if we envisaged . . . giving euro area authorities a much deeper and authoritative, say in the formation of the country's economic policies if these go harmfully astray?" asked Mr Trichet, suggesting "a direct influence, well over and above the reinforced surveillance that is presently envisaged?"
...
The central banker's boldest suggestion was a "new concept" for the euro zone that envisioned cases of "compulsory" intervention from EU leaders and the ECB in "major fiscal spending items and elements essential for the country's competitiveness".
...
"Confronting the challenges of the future requires strengthening the institutions of economic union - the `E' in EMU," he said. "Would it be too bold, in the economic field, with a single market, a single currency and a single central bank, to envisage a ministry of finance of the Union?"
In Mr Trichet's view, this EU finance ministry need not administer a budget but monitor directly fiscal and competitiveness policies. This ministry could ensure closer integration of financial services across the EU and sit on boards of international financial institutions.

No, thanks.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 06:22:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If only (none / 0)

I believe that what you're assuming here is that we can fix the problems introduced by EPP ideology later. Is this really a safe assumption? Weren't you previously pleased that the EU was stuck, given who was running the place?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 10:46:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If only (none / 0)

Jerome was never on the side of those who welcomed paralysis:

Despite arguments by some on this site that the French "Non" to the EU Constitution brought in a welcome period of paralysis at a time when neo-liberal ideas dominate in Brussels, I continue to think that this vote was an unmitigated disaster

(from 5 years ago)

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 12:17:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think history has borne him out. (none / 0)

I fail to see how the current crisis could have been worse, had the EU constitution been ratified. Perhaps this is a failure of imagination on my part, but I believe that we would have been spared a large part of the nationalist backlash which has so badly damaged the European project these recent years.

_{It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue
- Queen Elizabeth II}

by eurogreen on Thu Jun 9th, 2011 at 08:38:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think history has borne him out. (none / 0)

Would we have gotten different national (and EU-level) politicians as a result?

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Jun 9th, 2011 at 09:07:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think history has borne him out. (none / 1)

That so many average people were averse to a strong EU enabled a power vacuum at the center of the current EU. The people most likely to fill that vacuum were those with the least regard for the aspirations of the average voter precisely because the average voter was not keen on the project itself.

by Upstate NY on Sat Jun 11th, 2011 at 10:43:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think history has borne him out. (4.00 / 2)

Looking at the constitution/Lisbon treaty from a perpetually eurosceptic country some things come to mind:

That the French people votes no is seen as a sign of democracy in France - "why are we not allowed to vote?".
That the EU runs over the votes and institutes basically the same system anyway is seen as an indication of the lack of democracy in the EU (the federal level that is). Though that is as was already expected.
The symbolic stuff would not have created any support for the EU project as such. More likely to have created derision, in particular considering how poorly the federal level does PR.

So for Sweden, it would not have mattered. The success of the Sweden democrats (our ugly party) is not based on anti-EU sentiment, it is based on anti-foreigner sentiment and capitalisation on general discontent.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Jun 9th, 2011 at 12:40:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think history has borne him out. (none / 1)

Are you suggesting that European nationalism would have just disappeared with the constitution? Or be even faintly changed?

That, suddenly, we would all be friends?

The only way for such a thing to advance now (and back then by the way), is by annihilation of democracy (which in part happened with the Lisbon treaty, by the way). I would postulate that anyone that want to force more integration now is, to put it bluntly, an enemy of democracy.

Note the word "force", it is important. One thing is trying to convince the peoples of Europe to unite further (good luck). Another, despotic, is push forward against what is the current will of the peoples of Europe. The many peoples of Europe (we are not one people, for sure).

by cagatacos on Fri Jun 10th, 2011 at 06:53:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think history has borne him out. (4.00 / 2)

Then, you are subscribing with Dani Rodrik's The Paradox of Globalization.

In his latest book, he identifies a fundamental 'trilemma': that we cannot simultaneously pursue democracy, national self-determination, and economic globalization.

"Eurozone leaders have turned a €50bn Greek solvency problem into a €1,000bn existential crisis for the European Union." David Miliband

by Kostis Papadimitriou on Sat Jun 11th, 2011 at 02:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think history has borne him out. (none / 0)

You cannot pursue either democracy or national self determination while the current form of globalization is effective. Globalization, as currently practiced, is driven by financial elites who are hostile to democracy and national self determination. They deploy their money to suborn all significant governments where democracy is an issue and they call pariah on any who attempt self determination. Others can only have control of things they are not concerned with, so long as they remain unconcerned. Want to challenge them? Get a sling and a rock. It has worked before, reportedly.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Jun 11th, 2011 at 10:38:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I think history has borne him out. (4.00 / 3)

It was "ratified", disguised as the Lisbon Treaty, once rejected by the Irish, if memory serves, and brought back a year later, with minor changes to be voted in. This process, I would imagine, had the Irish persisted in saying "No", would have had involved N iterations of referenda until the "yes" vote triumphed. It was not, despite its equivalence to the rejected Constitutional treaty, brought to vote elsewhere in the EU.

This charade of forcing a treaty, repeatedly rejected by the peoples of the EU, by hook or by crook, was IMHO the most flagrant display of the EU elites' total disregard of european public opinion, and fed a legitimacy crisis that in turn "tuned out" large parts of the people of the EU to any discussion of the European project. Worse, the EU then handled the Crisis with neoliberalism embedded as a constitutional mandate. This didn't help. In fact, this contempt for popular dissatisfaction fed the nationalist far right, on the ascendant right now across the EU, and affecting policy in many countries already.

Were there a broader coalition against the passage of any treaty not prepared by a special constitutional session of the European Parliament, specifically elected on that mandate, instead of the SD subscribing to the neoliberal constitutional agenda remarketed as a sneaky Treaty, things just might have been a tad better at this point.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sat Jun 11th, 2011 at 06:12:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If only (none / 1)

Regarding the second Irish referendum (3 years ago), to my question

So, what if the no wins?

Frank Schnittger answered

There is no plan B, and the EU project will probably be in a state of semi-paralysis for some time - until the next major global crises, where the woefully inadequate response of the EU will probably force a re-think. Big projects like the EU need big crises like WWII and the Cold War to move them forward. Let's hope it doesn't take another war...

The yes did win, and yet here we are in 2011 with the EU in a state of semi-paralysis, putting up a woefully inadequate response to a major internal EU crisis and no impetus for a re-think but rather more TINA.

Other than the expansion to 27 which was done in total haste and was supposed to have happened after the new treaty in any case, "the EU project" has been in semi-paralysis for the better part of 20 years. ... the Council, where the political impetus for "the EU project" has to come from, has been stocked with petty-minded nationalists who can't even bring themselves to campaign for their own treaty.

and

The world is likely to see an upheaval in the 2010's and the EU won't know what hit it because of these dunces.

Economics is politics by other means

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 12:23:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If only (4.00 / 4)

For Greece, it feels like having lost a war never fought.

"Eurozone leaders have turned a €50bn Greek solvency problem into a €1,000bn existential crisis for the European Union." David Miliband

by Kostis Papadimitriou on Tue Jun 7th, 2011 at 05:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The four oxen and the lion | 36 comments (36 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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