Greek National Liberation Front - 70th anniversary | 15 comments (15 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Revolution? (none / 1)

So what is the core argument? That the corrupt ruling class in Greece are the primary culprits in the current debacle? If so can anything short of a revolution resolve the crisis? And what would precipitate one, a disorderly default? And in this case, is the EU/IMF acting on behalf of the Greek kleptocracy?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 29th, 2011 at 07:53:39 PM EST

Re: Revolution? (4.00 / 5)

Well, at this point the crisis is unlikely to be resolved in Greece alone, anyway, so the question is moot.
It is useful however to point out that economies have histories, winners and losers. Because the narrative I'm hearing revolves around lazy workers and bad decisions that an entity called "Greece" made. At this point it is of some importance to remind people that this mess was not some sort of mass moral failing, but a historical result of the social hegemony of a rather particular ruling class. Once this is done, it gets harder to rationalize mass pauperization as a morally sound way to deal with the Greek end of the eurozone crisis. Anyway, historical background is always useful - especially when it runs contrary to general stereotypes and public wisdom, even regardless of current relevance.

And the ECB/IMF's first batch of measures were as if copy-pasted from the Union of Greek Industrialists permanent wishlist. I wouldn't say "on behalf of" but "in concert with" or "not hurting", certainly.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Thu Sep 29th, 2011 at 08:20:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revolution? (none / 0)

A nationalist narrative will talk in terms of Greece as a national actor as if it were a unitary entity. A conservative ideology will talk in terms of the moral failings of workers - of course not of capitalists or the ruling class. A Marxist/socialist narrative will talk in terms of the interests of the ruling class in Greece and global capital beyond being against the interests of the vast majority of the Greek people and thus the need for a revolution if the interests of the people are to prevail.

So my question isn't moot: which analysis are you advocating?

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Thu Sep 29th, 2011 at 09:24:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revolution? (4.00 / 4)

Generally speaking, obviously something like the third, with the obvious caveats regarding what "revolution" might mean, there is no Winter Palace to be taken anymore. Although the situation is complicated in the sense that what's happening in Greece is a stress test of policies that seem to be on the agenda, in various forms, all over Europe - and beyond. At this point though I agree with Varoufakis that the struggle is not so much about socialism or "benign social transformation" let's say, than about "arresting the freefall into a black hole at the bottom of which only xenophobia and aggregate misery lies"...
Anyway the particular history of the social formation in Greece might be generally useful in understanding the history of the forces at work and following what is happening and what is shaping reactions over here... that was (apart from the historical occasion and DoDo's request) what led me to post this diary.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Sep 30th, 2011 at 07:29:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revolution? (4.00 / 2)

The reason I am interested in this debate is that the EU/IMF has insisted on the reform and opening to competition of the Irish Medical and Legal oligopolies which tend to be dominated by small, self-regulating professions charging outrageous fees. In this limited sense the IMF/EU intervention may actually be partially progressive in challenging the local bourgeoisie's stranglehold on key economic sectors. If (for example) much of the Greek public sector is not actually very economically productive - or is actually preventing the emergence of a more productive economy - then the EU/IMF intervention might not be entirely retrogressive however painful it may obviously be for often lowly paid public sector workers. Hence my questions....

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Fri Sep 30th, 2011 at 09:14:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revolution? (4.00 / 5)

Ah now I understand! There were similar measures imposed by the troika in Greece. These might have the effect of opening up things like notary services or transport to more competition although the way things are set up I suspect that it will actually decrease competition as hundreds of independent truckers say, give way to two or three national or multinational corporations. But most of these were on a slow way to opening up and the sort of dislocation they are causing during a deep depression has societal repercussions.

What they have eliminated for example, are minimum fees for lawyers and engineers, a measure that seems to have been put originally in place as some sort of obstacle to total tax-evasion. The "opening-up" of certain professions especially in this climate will only have the effect of turning them into oligopolies. They are legislating an opening up of taxi licenses for example, a reasonable measure in regular times which is fought tooth and nail right now by the owners, who fear that they will be burdened with even more costs at a time when already most can't make ends meet. Of course investors have tried already to create taxi companies that would monopolize access to airports for example, in a business agreement with the El.Venizelos managers. So so much for competition.

Much of the Greek public sector is unproductive, but I would argue that so is much of the private sector. The size of the Greek public sector is (was) pretty much average for an OECD country, and there are areas where it is understaffed and others where it is overstaffed. So a rehaul of the public system is in order. But certainly not its reduction in size. Mass and indiscriminate sackings at a time of depression (and ~20% unemployment) are unlikely to help workers in either the private or the public sector.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Fri Sep 30th, 2011 at 10:08:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revolution? (4.00 / 4)

But we see the artificial divisions in America now just as they were in Greece. It's not only race that keeps the lower middle and working class separated. It's indoctrination and ideology. The Tea Party is weird and can't be explained easily.

In Greece, however, you have to overcome not only the divisions between the public and private spheres, but the remnants of the Civil War. This too is steeped in ideology. I think the documentary was well done and highly informative (the napalm video horrific!), but at the same time, while it acknowledged abuses by EAM (in terms of punishing traitors, perceived and real), it focused much more on the abuses of the royalists. The people in the video were Committed (with a capital C in the old Communist sense of the word) whereas most of the Greeks I know from the mountains were deeply ambivalent. And the ideological splits in Greek society seem to this day based on the specter of that ambivalence.

In many ways, it's similar to the USA.

by Upstate NY on Fri Sep 30th, 2011 at 09:06:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revolution? (4.00 / 2)

The Tea Party is weird and can't be explained easily.

For what it is worth I see the Tea Party as a top down structure created by elements of the very wealthy and designed to attract angry and dissatisfied elements from any part of the US political spectrum. But given the top down structure, those who have organized it have control of what elements and what issues are allowed access to the media and to have their actions funded. Opportunists who can figure this out and who are unencumbered by conscience or scruples then take off in the intended direction, benefiting both from the money and from the base of angry, dissatisfied Tea Party member support. It has become AstroTurfing on steroids.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Sep 30th, 2011 at 02:42:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revolution? (none / 0)

I think you just wrote Andrew Breitbart's Wiki.

by Upstate NY on Fri Sep 30th, 2011 at 10:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revolution? (none / 0)

LOL! Andrew Breitbart's Wiki:

Breitbart often appears as a speaker at Tea Party movement events across the U.S. For example, Breitbart was a keynote speaker at the first National Tea Party Convention at Gaylord Opryland Hotel in Nashville on February 6, 2010.[17] Breitbart later involved himself in a controversy over homophobic and alleged racial slurs being used at a March 20, 2010 rally at the United States Capitol in Washington, D.C. by asserting that slurs were never used, and that "It was a set-up" by Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic Party. Breitbart offered to donate $100,000 to the United Negro College Fund "for any audio/video footage of the N-word being hurled", claiming that they made it up. Breitbart insisted Congressman John Lewis and the several other witnesses were forced to lie, concluding that "Nancy Pelosi did a great disservice to a great civil rights icon by thrusting him out there to perform this mischievous task. His reputation is now on the line as a result of her desperation to take down the Tea Party movement."[18][19]

"Thanks" for the introduction. I hadn't heard of this t#*d. Perhaps I should try editing that wiki entry?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Oct 1st, 2011 at 01:07:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Revolution? (none / 0)

It describes him perfectly.

by Upstate NY on Sat Oct 1st, 2011 at 09:38:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Greek National Liberation Front - 70th anniversary | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Top Diaries

What's Next, After the Slam?

Shock Election Loss Rutte IV In Senate Race

Honduras Establishes Close Ties with China

A Return to Normalcy?

A Grand Slam for Ireland?

NI Protocol: It's all over bar the shouting?

Chinese peace principles for the war in Ukraine

The Windsor Framework

Recent Diaries

Neo-Nazi Marches Across Europe

Fascism Unites America, Israel and EU Neo-Nazis

What's Next, After the Slam?

Settler Extremism Blessed by Jerusalem Leaders

US Interference In Lebanon-Syria-Ira
q

City Agriculture - March 17, 2023

Shock Election Loss Rutte IV In Senate Race

Stalemate Endures, Pessimism Grows, Deaths Mount

Honduras Establishes Close Ties with China

A Grand Slam for Ireland?

Living In Spain and Social-Democracy

USA Censorship Act to Kill Disinformation

Flying Fortresses and Nuclear Threat

Universal Criticism Asylum Threshold EU Fortress

China Trade and Relations

SBU As a Terror Network

A Return to Normalcy?

Georgia and Foreign Agents or Spy Law

Nord Stream Blasts Timeline of Denial

Crimea As Endgame Before Going M.A.D.

Occasional Series