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Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
>Those Germans in control do not appear to care one bit about the welfare of any but the financiers and uber wealthy and the majority of Germans are just being 'good Germans' and going along quietly, mostly, without realizing the price they are paying.>

Did you just compare a economic policy you don't like with support of the holocaust?

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:28:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
No. I compared my estimate of the apparent response of the majority of Germans to an economic policy that is unjust, punitive and damaging to foreigners to the response of the majority of Germans to Nazi policy towards minorities.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:39:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
In other words, you minimized the holocaust. Just swell.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
The devastation currently produced in Greece is certainly comparable to what was happening in Germany prior to Kristallnacht, though totally different in character. In the case of Greece people are being thrown out of work and every means of helping them is being attacked or dismantled by the Troika. We will be lucky to get through this without a humanitarian catastrophe.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:58:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
Now you are smearing the greek, too. No, I don't a a massacre of Alabaniaas or gypsies or wahtever is likely in Greece.

though totally different in character.

In other words, not comparable at all..

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:06:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
Well, I suppose that massacres of minorities is a worry if the right wing gets sufficiently empowered, but the immediate threat to which I referred was starvation coupled with lack of heat and medical care.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:47:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
Getting the power cut off, getting people fired and bashing the health care system in the name of 'reform' is a vastly more subtle but still effective way to bring about a humanitarian catastrophe. Afterwards all can lament together "How could we have known?"

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)
When you realize that the history in Greece was much more about famine (700k dead or 12 to 15% of the population) than it was about gunshots or hangings or the like) you realize there is some resonance there.

I don't understand the Greek politicians at this point. It's pretty clear that Germany will never agree to the ECB issuing Eurobonds.

When the people's lifetime savings run out in a year or so, the Greek pols will have absolutely no choice.

by Upstate NY on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 09:47:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
Now you are smearing the greek, too.

I will ask our Greek posters to indicate if they so construe what I said. I don't know whether you are being hysterical or obtuse.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:52:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
I don't think someone comparing everything, but everything to fascism or the trail of tears should call others hysteric.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 08:07:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)
The critical words here are 'humanitarian catastrophe.'

I've said before there's a good case to be made the results of German action against Greece - and let's be clear that this action is being led by the German financial and political class - is a crime against humanity.

Whether or not it's 30s style Hitler/Franco fascism is irrelevant. It's obviously old-fashioned colonial economic dictatorship with a nasty dose of racism mixed in.

The effects are literally disastrous.

Or perhaps you're not bothered if people die?

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 08:27:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
>Or perhaps you're not bothered if people die?<

Actually I laugh. Dastardly. And twirl my moustache.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:33:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
Let's take that as a 'no' then, shall we?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
I made no comparison to fascism. My comparison was between the response of the majority of the German people in the mid '30s to the actions of the Nazi government to the response of the majority of the German people today to the actions of the current CDU government. The CDU is not fascist, but the actions of its political and financial leadership towards the Greek people are inflicting great harm to which that portion of German society that supports the CDU seems callously indifferent.

Plus there is a self-absorbed arrogance in much of the commentary I have seen that seems to minimize, dismiss and/or objectify the consequences of these policies on the average Greek, who has, perhaps, a similar degree of influence on the actions of their government as does the average German worker on their government, or perhaps we should be comparing the average unemployed workers.

The response of much of the press and most of the conservative leaders seems to be to scapegoat the Greeks and other peripheral peoples and to steadfastly refuse to consider that German actors had a role in the events leading up to the crisis. You would think that Greek criminals broke into German banks and made off with billions of euros. No acknowledgement that, in order for Germany to run a trade surplus others have to run a trade deficit or that my surplus is your deficit. Instead it is all moral framing. Germans run surpluses because they are morally superior and Greeks, Portuguese, Irish, Spanish and Italians run deficits because they are feckless. This is nonsense and surely you should know that. So how can it be justified?  

This is, I fear, only a step away from the sort of dehumanizing, demeaning and delegitimizing that, in the '30s, proved a prelude to actions that lead to death and destruction. The damage will not be done by German brownshirts, police officers or military this time, but will result in large scale excess deaths due to starvation, hypothermia and illness that are a direct consequence of the actions on which German leaders are insisting.

The fact that Germans will not literally have blood on their hands and did not specifically decide for specific individuals to die makes little difference to the moral content of the policy, and, to me, makes it no less repugnant. It strikes me as arrogant indifference and disdainful disregard for human suffering and I find it appalling. Again.

It is the attitudes that lead to condoning inhuman actions that I am comparing, not the political affiliations of the actors.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 11:43:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 5)
"The damage will not be done by German brownshirts, police officers or military this time, but will result in large scale excess deaths due to starvation, hypothermia and illness that are a direct consequence of the actions on which German leaders are insisting."

Well, the recent history of the West has been one of outsourcing and delocalisation of large parts of activity. That apparently includes the destruction of communities of "others".

It makes it all the easier to maintain the arrogant indifference. And to somewhat plausibly deny any accusation of sadism.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 04:10:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
ARGeezer:
Germans will not literally have blood on their hands

no but the greek riot control troops will, and they -inadvertently, probably- are de facto working for the BB's interests, against those of their own people.

causing the breakdown of a country to defend the rich of another is a new ball game, or at least a new iteration of an old one...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 09:05:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
"My comparison was between the response of the majority of the German people in the mid '30s to the actions of the Nazi government to the response of the majority of the German people today to the actions of the current CDU government. The CDU is not fascist, but the actions of its political and financial leadership towards the Greek people are inflicting great harm to which that portion of German society that supports the CDU seems callously indifferent."

But that is  a comparison. And a cheapening of fascism.  

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:33:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
It's a comparison of an attitude of indifference and lack of compassion in the mid `30s and an attitude of indifference and lack of compassion in 2012, yes.

Nu krieg dich mal'n büschen ein.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:39:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)
Hey, people are committing suicide in Greece. They are giving their children away to social services. You will say I exaggerate, but in 10 years time we'll look back to a debt crisis of Biblical proportions. Literally, as in Nehemiah 5
3 Others were saying, We are mortgaging our fields, our vineyards and our homes to get grain during the famine.

4 Still others were saying, We have had to borrow money to pay the king's tax on our fields and vineyards.

5 Although we are of the same flesh and blood as our countrymen and though our sons are as good as theirs, yet we have to subject our sons and daughters to slavery. Some of our daughters have already been enslaved, but we are powerless, because our fields and our vineyards belong to others.

6 When I heard their outcry and these charges, I was very angry.

7 I pondered them in my mind and then accused the nobles and officials. I told them, You are exacting usury from your own countrymen! So I called together a large meeting to deal with them

8 and said: As far as possible, we have bought back our Jewish brothers who were sold to the Gentiles. Now you are selling your brothers, only for them to be sold back to us! They kept quiet, because they could find nothing to say.

9 So I continued, What you are doing is not right. Shouldn't you walk in the fear of our God to avoid the reproach of our Gentile enemies?



tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:45:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
Just go on with the demonization. That will help.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:49:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Demonization (4.00 / 2)
I'm just (metaphorically) taking a page from David Graeber's book on the anthropology of debt.

To our modern sensitivity, seeing parents give away their children to social services because they can't pay the bills or are being foreclosed and evicted from their homes is about as morally abhorrent as giving one's children to slavery, which was a common occurrence in ancient times. Back then, there were debt jubilees. This text describes just one of them. The creditors were shamed into agreeing by a moral outrage. The moral outrage then was to cause "countrymen" or "brothers" to be enslaved. The outrage now is the lack of "solidarity". But how far does solidarity extend today? Is there "European solidarity"? I'm sure Greece contributed money to the European disaster fund that was set up after the Elbe floods of 2002. Because of European solidarity. It offends to hear the likes of Jean Claude Juncker to describe the ongoing negotiations of the second Greek "bailout" as "European solidarity" with the addendum that the Greeks still have to show they deserve it.

For fuck's sake, I'll demonize JC Juncker if I feel like it. I already said he was an idiot in February 2010 and I stand by everything I said in that thread.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:00:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
What the else has Graebers book to do with anything? No need for an argument ad hitlerum. bBck in the day, when Aznar compared S. Hussein to Hitler, did you cheer?

If anything is a genocide , nothing is. Is that so complicated?

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:09:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
Oh, it has to do with the fact that he points out the history of debt crises in which moral outrage hinged around things like enslaving your own people to pay for debts. If you want I'll look for his actual quote and his footnote, to see if he was referring to Nehemiah o something else.

What I'm saying is that it is a moral outrage that European "solidarity" allows what's going on in Greece (and to a lesser extent in Portugal or Spain - but we'll get there).

Look, I'm 35 years old and I've been a convinced pro-European all my adult life. I'm a hair's breadth away from changing that statement to "I've drunk the European kool-aid".

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Graeber (none / 0)
There are other moral arguments to be made about debt than "debts must be repaid".

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:14:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Graeber (none / 0)
That is no justification to use smears and to compare everybody to fascist or fascist supporter. Ia m pretty sure how to make the term fascism meaningless in ten easy steps is not part of Graebers book.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:17:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Graeber (none / 1)
As you know I don't give a damn when you call "Godwin" on me.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:26:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Graeber (none / 0)
And I should care about that why?
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:30:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Graeber (none / 1)
So we're even.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Why not? You are arguing in a purely nationalistic way anyway.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
Hah.

I'm attempting to expand the "us" to include all of Europe (at least). Which appears to be a non-starter in this here continent of ours. Despite "solidarity" being in the preamble of the Treaties.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:22:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Your us has a sharp border to the north.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (4.00 / 2)
Yes, the French used to say "l'Afrique commence aux Pyrénées".

But it was them who said it.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (3.33 / 3)
When Germany murders, in cold blood, a full percent of the Greek population, then yes, that tends to create very sharp borders.

And I'll have none of your facile denial that this is a German project, has been a German project from day one, and that Germany and German intellectuals (and I use the term loosely) have been at the forefront of the immiseration of Greece.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:40:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
>When Germany murders, in cold blood, a full percent of the Greek population,<

Now that is just a vile fantasy.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
No, that's the Russian experience with the consequences of the policies Germany is foisting on Greece.

Murdering someone by privatising his tap water and his hospitals kills him just as dead as a bullet to the back of the head, so I fail to see why the former should be considered more acceptable than the latter.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:42:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Jake, will you freaking calm down? Your line of argument is not very helpful, and 100.000 Greeks won't starve to death, jesus. At worst they'll emigrate to Germany and live on the dole, which would have a certain poetic justice to it.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
they cannot get the dole in Germany unless they paid into social security there, so that is not very accurate.
by stevesim on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:55:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
I'm sure these is some kind of basic welfare in Germany too, to stop unemployed people from starving to death. I mean, in Sweden we keep paying people, no matter how undeserving they are or even if they are recently immigrated from a country on the other side of the planet.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:03:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
nope.  Schroeder got rid of that.
by stevesim on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:04:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Srsly? o_O

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:07:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (4.00 / 2)
there are residency requirements and/or social security payments that have to be made -  I believe at least 6 months of payments, not sure about residency requirements.

and, the payments have been drastically cut so that people cannot even afford to smoke if they are on benefits and cigarettes in Germany are pretty cheap.

by stevesim on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Unless you're suggesting that the Greeks should be applying for asylum in other EU countries.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Dude, if you cannot support yourself any EU country can deport you back to your country and be within their rights under "free movement" rules.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:20:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Really? The Stockholm police did that with Romanian gypsies and got rapped on the fingers.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
I believe I have linked to this on several occasions
Right of residence for more than three months

The right of residence for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions. Applicants must:

  • either be engaged in economic activity (on an employed or self-employed basis);
  • or have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. The Member States may not specify a minimum amount which they deem sufficient, but they must take account of personal circumstances;
  • or be following vocational training as a student and have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay;
  • or be a family member of a Union citizen who falls into one of the above categories.

Residence permits are abolished for Union citizens. However, Member States may require them to register with the competent authorities within a period of not less than three months as from the date of arrival. Proof of registration will be issued immediately on presentation of:

  • an identity card or valid passport;
  • proof that the above conditions are complied with (see Article 9 of the Directive on the proof required for each category of citizen). Union citizens engaged in training must show, by means of a statement or any other means, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and for the members of their families to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State. This will be sufficient to prove that they comply with the resources condition.

Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit for family members of Union citizens. These permits are valid for five years from their date of issue.

Under certain conditions the death of the Union citizen, his or her departure from the host Member State, divorce, annulment of marriage or termination of partnership does not affect the right of family members who are not nationals of a Member State to continue residing in the Member State in question.

It's free movement of workers (if that), not free movement of people.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:38:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
100.000 Greeks won't starve to death, jesus. At worst they'll emigrate to Germany and live on the dole, which would have a certain poetic justice to it.

a) Not how excess mortality from economic deprivation works.

b) Just to underscore the serious nature of the policies the Germans (and their friends) are imposing on Greece, you cite mass depopulation as a preferable alternative to the policies currently being implemented. How is that solution any different from the forcible relocation of a conquered population? Except that it's carried out by stealing the victims' hospitals and water, rather than by waving a gun at their face.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
This isn't the 30's, nor is it third world Russia.

Speaking of population transfers, that's not a bug of the EMU project, it's a feature. Google "optimum currency area".

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
If population transfer at gunpoint is a feature of the EMU, then I want out.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
No guns involved. But people got to move where the jobs are. Or they will be unemployed. That's life in a single currency. We see that in Sweden as well, where the inland and the north is being depopulated.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
But we have a bunch of programs and transfers that keeps the depopulation slow and steady.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:12:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
As has the EU, in the form of those regional support funds.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
The policies currently being imposed on Greece are going to involve rather a lot of guns long before it gets to the point of mass depopulation.

That the guns will be applied to those who do not leave rather than those who do does not make it any less a depopulation at gunpoint.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:16:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
I don't know about gunpoint...

El Pais: La CEOE pide quitar la prestación a quien rechace cualquier oferta de empleo

Feito ha abogado, además, por abordar cuestiones eludidas como el subsidio de desempleo, que debe ser retirado al beneficiario en cuanto no acepte la primera oferta de empleo. Ha remarcado que en el resto de países europeos es "inconcebible" que los desempleados cobren paro si han recibido una oferta de trabajo. "Como si es en Laponia", ha subrayado. Por otra parte, ha defendido que eliminar puestos de trabajo en las Administraciones no generará más paro, pues liberará fondos públicos para pagar a proveedores y que éstas puedan volver a contratar.
The [Spanish Business Owner Association] CEOE demands the withdrawal of [unemployment] subsidies from those who reject any job offer
Feito also advocated to tackle issues evaded [by the recent labour reform] such as the unemployment subsidy, which must be taken away from the beneficiary as soon as they don't accept the first job offer. He stressed that in the rest of European countries it is  "inconceivable" that the unemployed receive payments if they have had a job offer. "Even if it is in Lappland", he underscored. On the other hand, he defended that to eliminate jobs in the public administrations will not generate more unemployment, since it will free up resources to pay providers so that these can rehire.
Nothing against Lappland per se, you know, but there aren't even jobs for all the Finns there...

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (4.00 / 2)
There are lots of EU states that don't require you to take the first job offer you get. And the employers in all of them say the same damn thing about the others.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Also, if you are forced to take such a job under any conditions, are you freely entering into your labour contract?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:54:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Freedom is such a relative notion...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 05:40:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Has ever a cleaner of toilets signed their labour contract freely, or only because they need the money badly?
by Katrin on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:15:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
However, even if they need the money badly they may be able to reject a particularly bad or inconvenient offer and not lose benefits.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:31:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Completely agree with that. I was just pointing at the relativity of the "free will".
by Katrin on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
The point is that the Spanish patrons want to leave none.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:41:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
Lappland has an unemployment rate of about 2%. All skilled Greek miners are welcome. Hell, all unqualified Greeks who want to work hard for high salaries and feel like going to one year mining school in Sweden are welcome to Lappland.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
This might sound ironic but it isn't: Where does one start to find more info on this? I know some younger people who'd jump at the chance if the pay is decent.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:47:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
I would guess Starvid refers to this:

Job Seekers - LKAB

Work with us

LKAB will hire 1,200 people over the next three years. That's almost two a day. We're offering exciting career opportunities in 30 companies in 14 different countries! And there are 200 different positions to choose from.

There may be talk of crisis in Europe and of unrest on the American market, but the reality in Sweden's northern orefields is a bit contradictory. LKAB's new main levels, the build up of extra capacity and the three new mine projects in Svappavaara combined with retirements in large numbers all contribute to our record recruitment needs. We may very soon suffer a lack of manpower resources. We will need an enormously broad skills spectrum ranging from various types of civil engineers and specialist positions as well as mechanics, mine workers and electricians.

Because LKAB is the dominant mining company.

Though I have no idea what the 2% number refers to, unemployment in Sweden is mostly calculated on regional basis, placing Lappland in both Norrbotten and Västerbotten, neither having a 2% unemployment or anything close to it.

It was btw mentioned on the news the other day that Greek workers migration to Sweden has increased significantly.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 05:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Not only LKAB, but Northland resources as well. Same for all the associated support companies. Unemployment in Norrbotten is what I referred too. I've read somewhere that the latest unemployment numbers were 2.3%. On top of this, Sweden has a succesful history of labour immigration during the 50's and 60's, mainly from Italy, Hungary and Greece.

Anyway, here is information (in Swedish!) about the one year study program.

Job applications should be sent to LKAB, Boliden, Lundin Mining or Dannemora Mineral ("my" mine, yay). A command of Swedish is probably needed, or at worst, excellent English skills. And make no mistake: mining is no more the simple job where you just need big muscles and thick skull. The jobs are about operating very expensive and very heavy machinery, so previous experience of that kind is likely very useful.

Average pay for a miner who is 25-39 years old is 27900 kronor per month, which is 3000 euros. Foreign labour is sorely needed to combat miner wage inflation and the kinda militant unions. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 09:23:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
PS. As mentioned above, not only underground workers are needed, but engineers, mechanics and so on. If you know people who are good at fixing heavy duty diesel engines or electric motors, well, it doesn't hurt at least sending some e-mails.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 09:44:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Starvid:
Unemployment in Norrbotten is what I referred too. I've read somewhere that the latest unemployment numbers were 2.3%.

Svenskt Näringsliv disagrees. 7,8% vs a national average of 7,5% for 2011. The numbers comes from SCB.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Well there you go. Possible was unemployment in Kiruna then?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 05:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
That sounds more likely. Kiruna has what, 25000 inhabitants? (And is half the size of Belgium...) So with a boom in the mine and a relocation project that moves the town in order to make way for more mining they should have really low unemployment right now.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Feb 22nd, 2012 at 08:58:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
And BTW: "mining school" and similar "hurdles to the opening of professions and entrepreneurship" are now a thing of the past in Greece.  What Munchau said about the "categorical imperative"...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:54:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Swedish, Finnish or Norwegian Lappland?

Assuming it is Swedish Lappland, you loose benefits in Sweden if you turn down a job offer with a salary that is more then 90% of your unemployment benefits and there is also rules on what counts as a manageble distance (that grows with time). So no.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:20:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
You never ever lose Socialbidrag. Not even if you're a drug addict who entirely refuse to cooperate with the authorities.

"Försörjningsstöd har utgetts till missbrukare för kostnader för bl.a. bostad, trots att han inte följt uppgjord behandlingsplanering enligt Regeringsrättens dom RÅ 2009 ref 103.[3] Missbrukaren anförde i målet att han om han inte fick försörjningsstöd skulle mista sin bostad och "måste driva runt på stan". Det finns en politisk önskan att ingen i Sverige skall tvingas sova utomhus, svälta eller känna sig tvungen att begå brott för att få pengar till mat."

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (4.00 / 2)
I was talking about A-kassa.

But do note that that is a drug addict that is willing and able to appeal his case all the way. Not all druga addicts are.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
Acceding or refusing medical treatment can't be used as a criterion for punitive measures, though.

Unless you want to skirt the edge of the Nürnberg Declaration on medical ethics. Which you usually don't want to do.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 05:39:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
So, is Canary Islands to Umeå a manageable distance by Swedish standards?

Because it is for the Spanish CEOE.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
You spent much time in Greece?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
More than in any other country bar Sweden. But it was a long time ago.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
It's improved, but still reminds me of Ireland 20 years ago. Which is still catching up with the core of ten years ago ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Oh, it's going to get worse than both.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
You should rephrase that as "I am arguing in a purely nationalistic way".

I've never seen Migeru being an apologist for Spain, though I've been around a LOT longer than you.
Whereas you are here quite happy to give logical seniority to German conventional wisdom over the laws of arithmetics.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 04:04:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Pulling rank?

I have never defended german conventional economic wisdom. or shifted the blame to say the US or Spain or whatever other country. I just tend to point out that the global cultural dominance of certain economic dogmas can't be fought by indulging in nationalism.

I would like to achieve a bit more of a international left. Or at least european left.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
I have never defended german conventional economic wisdom.

Bwahahahahahah

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:11:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
And that isn't an argument either.
by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:24:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (4.00 / 2)
Look, I'm 35 years old and I've been a convinced pro-European all my adult life. I'm a hair's breadth away from changing that statement to "I've drunk the European kool-aid".

Hear fucking hear. Except I'm 26.

You know, this is the big disaster. Not mass unemployment in a few countries for a few years, or massive bond losses, or Europe looking like a bunch of silly squabbling children to the rest of the world. The big disaster is the destruction of the European dream. Caused, ironically, by a premature project to improve European solidarity and community through a common currency. Remember those days when Nazi arguments in European squabbles were totally totally out of bounds? It was just a few years ago. Can't people remember why Jean Monet et al even started the damn union anymore?

Maybe the original problem was that the EMU project was invented by people who had experienced the war, and implemented by people who hadn't.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:45:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (4.00 / 2)
The problem with the EMU project is that it was conceived by idealists who believed in voodoo economics, and implemented by sadists who believe (or pretend to) in voodoo economics.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:40:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Starvid:
Look, I'm 35 years old and I've been a convinced pro-European all my adult life. I'm a hair's breadth away from changing that statement to "I've drunk the European kool-aid".

Hear fucking hear. Except I'm 26.

yup, me too and i'm 60. destruction of a dream, for the basest of motives. makes me want to scream...

we had two european generations with remarkable little nationalism outside of football, now the next one will hear murmurs of geno-hatred from the adults rocking their cradles.

what a freaking waste. just when the eurozone was standing for something new too, worldwide.

like showing some spine with the pollution tax against airlinss right now. that's the EU i believe in, and am seeing under dire attack.

next time fix a common fiscal policy before a common currency.

massive, mortal DUH!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 10:14:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
international aid (4.00 / 4)
I'm sure Greece contributed money to the European disaster fund that was set up after the Elbe floods of 2002. Because of European solidarity.

Oh. Well, I hope the anecdote lightens up the tone again, instead of triggering off something about ungratefulness or so. No the Greeks didn't send money. They sent something worth soandso much. Er, something they could spare.

Think of it, there were wet people on the roofs in that cold winter and nobody knew what to do with the shipload of raisins from Greece... In the end the raisins were given to the schoolchildren of Hamburg. My husband still remembers them, a big bag of raisins was something poorer children hadn't had before in those times.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:16:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: international aid (none / 1)
Well, raisins you only have to grow with your labour and your soil, whereas fiat Euros, well, you have to have all those Central Bankers shit a gold ingot.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:21:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
Just go on with the demonization. That will help.

Yes, yes it will.

Because Greece (and Spain, and Portugal, and Ireland, and Italy) need to wake the fuck up and realise that Germany is not their friend. Germany is not behaving in a friendly manner. And that means that they need to start playing hardball against Germany. Beginning with selectively defaulting on foreign institutions, setting up barriers to German imports to match the German barriers against their imports, and generally behave as self-interested nation-states rather than as members of a political union.

Germany is destroying the European Union, and you are making bullshit mouth-noises about how the Netherlands and Finland are complicit, as if that makes it OK.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:51:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
The grrek and spanish and irish etc elites want to thank you for your spirited defense of their interests.

Whatever happened to the "main enemy in the own country"?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:41:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
My country is not in the EMU.

Of the countries that are in the EMU, Germany is the biggest part of the problem.

We frequently criticise the neoliberal morons of other countries, but those criticisms are less visible because those neoliberal morons lack such spirited defenders as the German ones have.

And, again, Germany is the biggest contributor, bar none, to the problem.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:47:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
A more complete response:

No. I compared my estimate of the apparent response of the majority of Germans to an economic policy that is unjust, punitive and damaging to foreigners to the response of the majority of Germans to Nazi policy towards minorities. Ignoring something monstrous is different from supporting it.

As to the moral worth of the policies themselves, I feel similarly about the policies of the USA, of which I an a native, towards Latin America, which I find comparable in monstrosity, especially Chile under Allende, Guatemala since 1954, El Salvidor and Honduras, to what the Nazis did, but more insidious, as they are lower in intensity and easier to disguise. And Latin America is only a start.

I have to live with the knowledge that my country, in my name, is daily committing monstrous acts. At least I am willing to acknowledge what I cannot, yet, change.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:49:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
Babbling about the american policies versus South america 40 years past doesn't change that your comment is idiotic, vile and enabling.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
I am obviously lacking in the ability to compartmentalize.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
...or in the ability to recognise different sets of meaning and connotation. Not an unusual thing, these days.
by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:05:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
Perhaps. I do not see these things from the same perspective, obviously, but the fact that the '30s were traumatic for so many, not just the obvious victims, should not make those events a taboo for discussion and even comparison. While specific events today are vastly different, it may be that there are commonalities that are at play, however painful that may be to contemplate.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:52:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
I am absolutely not advocating to treat them as taboo! I am advocating awareness of the different sets of meaning.
by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:57:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
I believe you and your down-thread comments certainly support your assertion.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 06:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
Enabling of what, and of whom?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:02:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
of genocide. of fascism. white-washing and minimizing is enabling.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:14:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)
You know, when you were born Germany had been a democracy for 25 to 30 years and it remains one. But Greece, Spain and Portugal were dictatorships, tolerated by Germany as part of the West (hey, they were in NATO or as close to in it it didn't matter).

So don't fucking go lecturing people about fascism, okay?

And apparently there were a lot of Germans who ceased to be fellow travellers as early as the night of long knives, well before the holocaust was in evidence. So not all conparisons to Nazi Germany have to be about the holocaust. You could have chosen to take ARGeezer's argument along those lines.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
I am lecturing now. Very funny. And spain was what when you were born? And no, calling the citizens of democratic state supporters of a fascist dictatorship is not inside the bounds of discourse.

Do really don't see the problem with the misuse of terms like fascism or dictatorship?  

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
Not that I like to get this personal, I was born the day after Franco died so we didn't have a democratic constitution until I was 3, we had a involutionist coup when I was 5 and a bit, and we were still having domestic terrorism deaths until just about yesterday. You don't happen to have personal memories of the RAF, I suspect. ETA murdered somebody on my street and exploded one car bomb in the neighbourhood of my school.

Do you want to go on?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
You started this remember?

And in my lifetime, including ma adult life the RAF was still quite active.

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
calling the citizens of democratic state supporters of a fascist dictatorship is not inside the bounds of discourse.

The Greek government is not fascist... yet.

It will qualify as soon as the elections are postponed, however, as Germany is currently demanding that they are.

So yes, Merkel's government is supporting a fascist coup in Greece. And 85 % or so of the German population is cheering on them as they do so.

If you do not see why this is a problem, then you are not a part of the solution.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
If I would live in your alternative timeline, I would see that as a problem too.

Happily I don't.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
What alternative timeline are you talking about?

Are you meaning to say that Schäuble has not suggested that the Greek elections should be postponed?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
Let's say for arguments sake, that he has suggested that.

a) are they postponed?

b) will they be postponed?

c) wouldn't that be - up to certain time of course - quite legal under the greek constitution?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
So you are denying that he has, in fact, said that?

And why does Greek compliance or non-compliance with Stasi 2.0's antidemocratic demands make a difference to whether Stasi 2.0 was supporting antidemocratic actions?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:43:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
I am never dying nor admitting anything in that respect. I don't know. Was that the famous video or are we talking about more official statements.

To you second question, isn't it quite important to your fascism in greece thesis, if things actually happen?

And my c), isn't a election until 2013 (or 2014) not necessary anyway?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:49:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
denying.

I don't make up stories about dying, not even my own.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
You're a joke.

Greece faces call to put off elections

EUROZONE finance ministers are considering a German demand for Greece to postpone its national election as a condition of another huge bailout.

According to diplomats close to the talks, ministers meeting in Brussels tonight to decide on a E130 billion ($159bn) loan package may require a delay to the Greek election due in April so the nation's unelected technocratic government can implement harsher austerity measures.

Germany's demand, which will strengthen Greek claims the rescue package is undemocratic, is being pressed by Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and supported by The Netherlands, Finland and Italy, which, like Greece, is ruled by unelected technocrats.

Also, this just in from the FT: Greece must default if it wants democracy (by Wolfgang Münchau)
When Wolfgang Schäuble proposed that Greece should postpone its elections as a condition for further help, I knew that the game would soon be up. We are at the point where success is no longer compatible with democracy. The German finance minister wants to prevent a "wrong" democratic choice. Similar to this is the suggestion to let the elections go ahead, but to have a grand coalition irrespective of the outcome. The eurozone wants to impose its choice of government on Greece - the eurozone's first colony.

...

A senior German official has told me that his preference is to force Greece into an immediate default. I can therefore only make sense of Mr Schäuble's proposal to postpone elections as a targeted provocation intended to illicit an extreme reaction from Athens. If that was the goal, it seems to be working. Karolos Papoulias, the Greek president, fired back at Mr Schäuble's "insults". Evangelos Venizelos, finance minister, said certain elements wanted to push Greece out of the eurozone. Conspiracy theories abound. Hardly a day passes by without a cartoon in the Greek press of Angela Merkel and Mr Schäuble in Nazi uniforms. German MPs expressed outrage at the Greek outrage. Bild, the German mass-market daily, is calling for Greece to be "kicked out" of the eurozone. I shudder at the thought of an act of violence committed against Germans in Greece or Greeks in Germany. This is the kind of conflict that could easily escalate.

...

The German strategy seems to be to make life so unbearable that the Greeks themselves will want to leave the eurozone. Ms Merkel certainly does not want to be caught with a smoking gun in her hand. It is a strategy of assisted suicide, and one that is extremely dangerous and irresponsible.



tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
The usual speculation and a link to walled content. Of an australian murdoch  newspaper.

But I have looked it up now and he did say something like what. We will see tomorrow how far that is an official demand and more important, if the election are delayed. If the elections go on as planned, can we then lay the endless babbling about fascism to rest?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
What, Stasi 2.0 has suddenly taken to making mouth-noises that are not demands?

And no, we are not going to let you make apologies for Stasi 2.0's support of fascism just because he happens to lose. Because the fact that he happens to lose is not his doing. Support for annulling elections is support for annulling elections, whether elections are held in the end or not.

And no, supporting the annulment of elections is not an acceptable bargaining ploy either, so don't bother making that particular vapid excuse.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
You do know that anulling a election is something quite different?

I know you are on "was it over when the germans bombed pearl harbour" roll, but still.

"And no, supporting the annulment of elections is not an acceptable bargaining ploy either, so don't bother making that particular vapid excuse."

Still makino my arguments in your head?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:51:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
And I will lecturing everybody about fascism I want you self appointed expert.
by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
So not all conparisons to Nazi Germany have to be about the holocaust.

There are some cultural differences. They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that. Here the same picture is understood as an accusation about genocide.  

It's differences too few people know.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty.  Germans don't understand that.

Well, Germans should understand that anti-Nazi resistance nonagenarian heroes are very pissed off. Maybe BILD should point that out to Merkel.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
Yes, maybe. I think it is wiser not to rely on Bild doing it, though. That's why I pointed out that metaphors have different meanings in different cultures, right?
by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
With Merkel's popularity at a high, I think this is all hopeless.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
I am not using the word "hopeless" so quickly. But it is awful.
by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 06:00:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
As it was in the USA when G W Bush had high ratings after invading Iraq.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
Good comparison.
by Katrin on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:30:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
There are some cultural differences. They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that. Here the same picture is understood as an accusation about genocide.

If the economic policies she's pushing were implemented throughout the European Union, the number of dead bodies would be similar to the holocaust. The German interpretation of that photoshop may actually be closer to the fact of the matter than the author's intended message.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:55:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
Possibly. That would be irony then.

It is a matter of communication skills. With these tropes you will definitely get a reaction. If that's all you want, fine. BUT if you have an intended message and want your interlocutor to understand it, I suggest you use something else. Unfair accusations will only drive Merkel's approval rates up, by the way.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:40:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
I guess such communication needs to be more like psychotherapy than rhetoric. Similarly, in the US South, when one points out what seems rather obvious racism the response is a vigorous rally to the color bar. But psychotherapy only works when the subject actually wants to understand what is happening and denial is one of the most powerful psychic defenses and, hence, the most common. When it is overcome it is often by crushing trauma.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 01:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

>If the economic policies she's pushing were implemented throughout the European Union, the number of dead bodies would be similar to the holocaust. <

Nuts, really nuts.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
When Russia was subjected to these policies, approximately one million Russians died, of a population of around 100 million.

The EU has 500 million citizens.

Do the math. It's not that hard.

Of course, if Germany, Austria and the Netherlands were exempted, it would only be 2/3 of the holocaust. But we're still in the right ballpark.

Major industrial depressions are not a fucking game. Get that?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:52:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
The holocaust wasn't a game either. Nor a cheap rhetoric trick.

Get that?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
If you don't like that comparison, then maybe you should stop defending policies which, were they implemented everywhere they are being pursued, would give rise to seven-figure body counts.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
Of course I only defend these policies in your fantasy.

You really are drunk on your own rhetoric.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
So when I point out that the main enemies of Europe are Merkozy, her minions and the nutters in the BuBa, I'm defending neoliberals in the countries that have suffered German protectionist attacks for the last twenty years.

But when you herpaderp about how unfair it is that I point out the simple fact that the most vocal and most powerful enemies of Europe are all German, then you're not associated with them at all.

I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that's a double standard or not.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
So you "point out" and I "herpaderp".

Is that supposed to be an argument now?

 And you are defending neoliberal elites all over europe by giving them the convenient excuse that they are underr attack from Germany. I don't excuse anybody. So yes, that is different behavior.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Herp (none / 1)
Derp

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:01:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Herp (1.50 / 2)
Asshole.
by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:03:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Malkovich? (none / 1)
Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:06:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Malkovich? (none / 1)
Have I broken you?
by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Malkovich? (4.00 / 3)
Heat/light threshold anybody?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:52:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Malkovich? (none / 0)
Take a deep breath and count to ten everybody...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:06:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
You don't excuse it, you just flat out deny it.

I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that is better or worse than pointing it out.

And yes, you are herpaderping when you not only make elementary mistakes such as failing to net out cyclical flows in a flow of funds model and stonewall when this obvious newbie mistake is pointed out to you.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:10:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
This comment really flabbergasted me, so I really feel grateful that you posted it. Are you seriously saying that in Germany, today, just like in the irrelevant subarctic backwater of Sweden with it's completely collapsed history education, the dominant view about WW2 is that it was mainly about the Holocaust, with some fighting on the fringes? Christ...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)
No, not at all. I am entirely concerned with communication within Europe.
  1. Some Greeks sent a message alluding to World War II.
  2. In Germany a message about the Holocaust arrived.
  3. There was only one message.

Shit.

But history education would be another interesting topic.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 04:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
And apparently there were a lot of Germans who ceased to be fellow travellers as early as the night of long knives...

Or worse, had to continue to go along with what they knew was evil to protect the very lives of their family, which I understand. When in a moral swamp there is often no moral move to be made. That is what I fear we are approaching as the Global Financial Rip-Off proceeds unchecked, its true essence studiously ignored by most of the media and politicians.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
I hate to tell you this, IM, but, when it comes to enabling lawless, authoritarian government, even if it does not fully comply with common definitions of fascism, that horse has long left the barn. It is called Uncle Sam. We have just become more subtle in how we handle dissent and opposition as well as how the financial elite manage the political system. Like the Roman Empire, we cling to the forms of the republic to mask the fact that the substance is history. For that it is the blindness of the vast majority of US citizens that is to blame. Being one of them I have to accept my share.

The typical US citizen would react to the above statement much like you reacted to my statement. I had and have no intent to facilitate fascism, here, in Germany or anywhere. Pointing out that self-absorbed blindness to the actions of leaders has and can lead to national disasters is different from 'enabling' such developments. Ignoring those actions is 'enabling', and I have to wonder if your response was tactical.

Neither the Jews, the Germans, the Armenians, the Turks, the North American indigenous people, the USA, Spain or France or any victim or  perpetrator population have a monopoly on genocide or domestic terror. Neither do any in those populations have veto authority on the ability of others to discuss what happened and any parallels that can be drawn to prevent recurrence, and that was the clear intent of my comment. I have Cherokee ancestors who came over the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma, where I was raised through Arkansas to which I have retired.

It has taken me a lifetime to come to some understanding of how this and other aspects of my society has affected me and, were you to complain that my understanding is highly imperfect I would certainly agree. At least I do try to understand and I don't try to shut down anyone who wants to discuss the subject, which is what you seem to be trying to do.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 06:53:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
I'm wondering about what comparison you are making. All governments are lawless and authoritarian - the difference is just a matter of degree, but of course, that matter of degree is very important.
by rootless2 on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 08:02:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
The comparison here was between the real and the ideal depictions of 'democracy', of which I have a somewhat jaundiced view. To me it cannot exist unless it includes a significant degree of economic democracy, and what little we once had has been under attack in the USA since the '60s. What the USA and Germany both have is a highly managed democracy, the implementation of which Bernays would be proud.
(I had a much better link to a facsimile copy before my computer was struck by lightning last July.)

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:01:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
I often see this theory, but I don't really see much evidence. The 1960s started with Jim Crow in full operation and ended in the Nixon era. There was a great deal of freedom for middle class white kids, at least personal freedom, but did the era of Cointelpro and of the Vietnam War had more democracy of any kind than the current era? Was there more "economic democracy" then? How?

The "left" or what remains of it, seems to me to be crippled by a weird nostalgia for what never was.

by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 11:31:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)
rootless2:
The "left" or what remains of it, seems to me to be crippled by a weird nostalgia for what never was.

LOL, you're a master of the trolly red-rag-to-a-bull.

Why do you care so much about the wheelchair-bound delusionary rump of the scare-quote left?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 11:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
I note you don't respond to my argument but focus on labeling. But the answer should be obvious: in the 1960s, the social justice movement loosely speaking, could pretty much be identified with the "left". And at that time "the left" actually meant something and really could be seen as a line of thought stretching back to the first and second internationals. Now though we have a "left" line of thought that heralds back to the height of the cold war as a golden age, from which we have fallen through the Powers of Neoliberalism. I find that to be a peculiar, incoherent, and historically confabulated argument. And it seems to me that the "left" has lost touch with a larger social justice movement.
by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 11:58:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)
rootless2:
focus on labeling

I did so in that comment because you use labelling provocatively. If you only want reponses to your argument, only post your argument.

To which I reply below, and am to some extent in agreement with you.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
The "left" has - same way as the "right" - always been defined from the need to rally a mayority of the political power in order to rule. In Denmark and Norway we have today parties that are called Left - Venstre - as a result of being founded at a time when the defining charactheristica of the left/right divide was related to a) universal and equal voting rights and parliaments power over the executive and b) the abolishment of inherited economic privileges. The scene changed and they ended up on the right, but the party names stayed the same.

So I would disagree, there never was a coherent line of thought, only worse or better narratives.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:59:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
that's true enough, I guess i'm using "left" to refer to  "social democrat to communists" but even that's an uneven track.
by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 09:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)
rootless2:
The 1960s started with Jim Crow in full operation and ended in the Nixon era.

The '60s ended with Jim Crow over and done with, and Nixon thrown out of the White House - a couple of details your account left out.

Did the end of Jim Crow mean economic equality for African-Americans? No.

Did the end of Nixon mean a definitive step forward for democracy in America? No.

Was there greater "economic democracy" at that time than now? There was less income and wealth inequality, and the rise in lower incomes gave people the feeling they were part of society and not its garbage.

Was there more freedom? There were gains in freedom, and not only for middle-class white kids (and not only in America). The Civil Rights movement and radical middle-class white movement gave the impression the world was going to be changed. Was that impression confirmed by events? No. But it's not something that never existed, and neither was it insignificant.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:00:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
Aggregate wealth inequality measures are deceptive. For example, do you really want to argue that in the USA there was less wealth inequality before the women's liberation movement and the various equal pay acts?
by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
Do I want to go down your chosen rathole? No.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
It was your claim, not mine.
by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)
I often see this theory, but I don't really see much evidence.

I was referring to workplace democracy, which was present in the '60s mostly as an ideal, i.e. the SDS manifesto. This has largely been driven out of the public debate, though some creative companies have seen the competitive advantages and moved in that direction, so, while there are some trade-offs, as a tool to transform society, and especially as a tool that might be reenforced by law and regulation, it has been largely forgotten and is no current threat to 'market discipline'.

The Civil Rights Act was an important, historic step in the right direction, but not as a tool for economic democracy, certainly after the assassination of MLK. The women's liberation movement gave women options but has done little to close the pay gap and, in fact, the response by business seems to have been: "Oh good! Now we can require the wife to work for 2/3ds to 3/4rs of her husbands wage and thereby put pressure on rising wages." It would not surprise me to find this having been directly discussed by Chamber of Commerce leaders.

The ideal has largely been forgotten while the implementation of the progressive reforms have been implemented in ways destructive to the original intent but friendly to business, largely due to the influence of business organizations on governments through campaign finance and on public opinion through owned media and 'think tank' propaganda.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 10:51:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
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