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No. I compared my estimate of the apparent response of the majority of Germans to an economic policy that is unjust, punitive and damaging to foreigners to the response of the majority of Germans to Nazi policy towards minorities. Ignoring something monstrous is different from supporting it.
As to the moral worth of the policies themselves, I feel similarly about the policies of the USA, of which I an a native, towards Latin America, which I find comparable in monstrosity, especially Chile under Allende, Guatemala since 1954, El Salvidor and Honduras, to what the Nazis did, but more insidious, as they are lower in intensity and easier to disguise. And Latin America is only a start.
I have to live with the knowledge that my country, in my name, is daily committing monstrous acts. At least I am willing to acknowledge what I cannot, yet, change. "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
So don't fucking go lecturing people about fascism, okay?
And apparently there were a lot of Germans who ceased to be fellow travellers as early as the night of long knives, well before the holocaust was in evidence. So not all conparisons to Nazi Germany have to be about the holocaust. You could have chosen to take ARGeezer's argument along those lines. tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
Do really don't see the problem with the misuse of terms like fascism or dictatorship?
Do you want to go on? tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
And in my lifetime, including ma adult life the RAF was still quite active.
calling the citizens of democratic state supporters of a fascist dictatorship is not inside the bounds of discourse.
The Greek government is not fascist... yet.
It will qualify as soon as the elections are postponed, however, as Germany is currently demanding that they are.
So yes, Merkel's government is supporting a fascist coup in Greece. And 85 % or so of the German population is cheering on them as they do so.
If you do not see why this is a problem, then you are not a part of the solution.
- Jake Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
Happily I don't.
Are you meaning to say that Schäuble has not suggested that the Greek elections should be postponed? tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
a) are they postponed?
b) will they be postponed?
c) wouldn't that be - up to certain time of course - quite legal under the greek constitution?
And why does Greek compliance or non-compliance with Stasi 2.0's antidemocratic demands make a difference to whether Stasi 2.0 was supporting antidemocratic actions?
To you second question, isn't it quite important to your fascism in greece thesis, if things actually happen?
And my c), isn't a election until 2013 (or 2014) not necessary anyway?
I don't make up stories about dying, not even my own.
Greece faces call to put off elections
EUROZONE finance ministers are considering a German demand for Greece to postpone its national election as a condition of another huge bailout. According to diplomats close to the talks, ministers meeting in Brussels tonight to decide on a E130 billion ($159bn) loan package may require a delay to the Greek election due in April so the nation's unelected technocratic government can implement harsher austerity measures. Germany's demand, which will strengthen Greek claims the rescue package is undemocratic, is being pressed by Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and supported by The Netherlands, Finland and Italy, which, like Greece, is ruled by unelected technocrats.
According to diplomats close to the talks, ministers meeting in Brussels tonight to decide on a E130 billion ($159bn) loan package may require a delay to the Greek election due in April so the nation's unelected technocratic government can implement harsher austerity measures.
Germany's demand, which will strengthen Greek claims the rescue package is undemocratic, is being pressed by Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and supported by The Netherlands, Finland and Italy, which, like Greece, is ruled by unelected technocrats.
When Wolfgang Schäuble proposed that Greece should postpone its elections as a condition for further help, I knew that the game would soon be up. We are at the point where success is no longer compatible with democracy. The German finance minister wants to prevent a "wrong" democratic choice. Similar to this is the suggestion to let the elections go ahead, but to have a grand coalition irrespective of the outcome. The eurozone wants to impose its choice of government on Greece - the eurozone's first colony. ... A senior German official has told me that his preference is to force Greece into an immediate default. I can therefore only make sense of Mr Schäuble's proposal to postpone elections as a targeted provocation intended to illicit an extreme reaction from Athens. If that was the goal, it seems to be working. Karolos Papoulias, the Greek president, fired back at Mr Schäuble's "insults". Evangelos Venizelos, finance minister, said certain elements wanted to push Greece out of the eurozone. Conspiracy theories abound. Hardly a day passes by without a cartoon in the Greek press of Angela Merkel and Mr Schäuble in Nazi uniforms. German MPs expressed outrage at the Greek outrage. Bild, the German mass-market daily, is calling for Greece to be "kicked out" of the eurozone. I shudder at the thought of an act of violence committed against Germans in Greece or Greeks in Germany. This is the kind of conflict that could easily escalate. ... The German strategy seems to be to make life so unbearable that the Greeks themselves will want to leave the eurozone. Ms Merkel certainly does not want to be caught with a smoking gun in her hand. It is a strategy of assisted suicide, and one that is extremely dangerous and irresponsible.
...
A senior German official has told me that his preference is to force Greece into an immediate default. I can therefore only make sense of Mr Schäuble's proposal to postpone elections as a targeted provocation intended to illicit an extreme reaction from Athens. If that was the goal, it seems to be working. Karolos Papoulias, the Greek president, fired back at Mr Schäuble's "insults". Evangelos Venizelos, finance minister, said certain elements wanted to push Greece out of the eurozone. Conspiracy theories abound. Hardly a day passes by without a cartoon in the Greek press of Angela Merkel and Mr Schäuble in Nazi uniforms. German MPs expressed outrage at the Greek outrage. Bild, the German mass-market daily, is calling for Greece to be "kicked out" of the eurozone. I shudder at the thought of an act of violence committed against Germans in Greece or Greeks in Germany. This is the kind of conflict that could easily escalate.
The German strategy seems to be to make life so unbearable that the Greeks themselves will want to leave the eurozone. Ms Merkel certainly does not want to be caught with a smoking gun in her hand. It is a strategy of assisted suicide, and one that is extremely dangerous and irresponsible.
But I have looked it up now and he did say something like what. We will see tomorrow how far that is an official demand and more important, if the election are delayed. If the elections go on as planned, can we then lay the endless babbling about fascism to rest?
And no, we are not going to let you make apologies for Stasi 2.0's support of fascism just because he happens to lose. Because the fact that he happens to lose is not his doing. Support for annulling elections is support for annulling elections, whether elections are held in the end or not.
And no, supporting the annulment of elections is not an acceptable bargaining ploy either, so don't bother making that particular vapid excuse.
I know you are on "was it over when the germans bombed pearl harbour" roll, but still.
"And no, supporting the annulment of elections is not an acceptable bargaining ploy either, so don't bother making that particular vapid excuse."
Still makino my arguments in your head?
So not all conparisons to Nazi Germany have to be about the holocaust.
There are some cultural differences. They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that. Here the same picture is understood as an accusation about genocide.
It's differences too few people know.
Well, Germans should understand that anti-Nazi resistance nonagenarian heroes are very pissed off. Maybe BILD should point that out to Merkel. tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
If the economic policies she's pushing were implemented throughout the European Union, the number of dead bodies would be similar to the holocaust. The German interpretation of that photoshop may actually be closer to the fact of the matter than the author's intended message.
It is a matter of communication skills. With these tropes you will definitely get a reaction. If that's all you want, fine. BUT if you have an intended message and want your interlocutor to understand it, I suggest you use something else. Unfair accusations will only drive Merkel's approval rates up, by the way.
Nuts, really nuts.
The EU has 500 million citizens.
Do the math. It's not that hard.
Of course, if Germany, Austria and the Netherlands were exempted, it would only be 2/3 of the holocaust. But we're still in the right ballpark.
Major industrial depressions are not a fucking game. Get that?
Get that?
You really are drunk on your own rhetoric.
But when you herpaderp about how unfair it is that I point out the simple fact that the most vocal and most powerful enemies of Europe are all German, then you're not associated with them at all.
I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that's a double standard or not.
Is that supposed to be an argument now?
And you are defending neoliberal elites all over europe by giving them the convenient excuse that they are underr attack from Germany. I don't excuse anybody. So yes, that is different behavior.
I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that is better or worse than pointing it out.
And yes, you are herpaderping when you not only make elementary mistakes such as failing to net out cyclical flows in a flow of funds model and stonewall when this obvious newbie mistake is pointed out to you.
But history education would be another interesting topic.
And apparently there were a lot of Germans who ceased to be fellow travellers as early as the night of long knives...
The typical US citizen would react to the above statement much like you reacted to my statement. I had and have no intent to facilitate fascism, here, in Germany or anywhere. Pointing out that self-absorbed blindness to the actions of leaders has and can lead to national disasters is different from 'enabling' such developments. Ignoring those actions is 'enabling', and I have to wonder if your response was tactical.
Neither the Jews, the Germans, the Armenians, the Turks, the North American indigenous people, the USA, Spain or France or any victim or perpetrator population have a monopoly on genocide or domestic terror. Neither do any in those populations have veto authority on the ability of others to discuss what happened and any parallels that can be drawn to prevent recurrence, and that was the clear intent of my comment. I have Cherokee ancestors who came over the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma, where I was raised through Arkansas to which I have retired.
It has taken me a lifetime to come to some understanding of how this and other aspects of my society has affected me and, were you to complain that my understanding is highly imperfect I would certainly agree. At least I do try to understand and I don't try to shut down anyone who wants to discuss the subject, which is what you seem to be trying to do. "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
The "left" or what remains of it, seems to me to be crippled by a weird nostalgia for what never was.
LOL, you're a master of the trolly red-rag-to-a-bull.
Why do you care so much about the wheelchair-bound delusionary rump of the scare-quote left?
focus on labeling
I did so in that comment because you use labelling provocatively. If you only want reponses to your argument, only post your argument.
To which I reply below, and am to some extent in agreement with you.
So I would disagree, there never was a coherent line of thought, only worse or better narratives. Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
The 1960s started with Jim Crow in full operation and ended in the Nixon era.
The '60s ended with Jim Crow over and done with, and Nixon thrown out of the White House - a couple of details your account left out.
Did the end of Jim Crow mean economic equality for African-Americans? No.
Did the end of Nixon mean a definitive step forward for democracy in America? No.
Was there greater "economic democracy" at that time than now? There was less income and wealth inequality, and the rise in lower incomes gave people the feeling they were part of society and not its garbage.
Was there more freedom? There were gains in freedom, and not only for middle-class white kids (and not only in America). The Civil Rights movement and radical middle-class white movement gave the impression the world was going to be changed. Was that impression confirmed by events? No. But it's not something that never existed, and neither was it insignificant.
I often see this theory, but I don't really see much evidence.
The Civil Rights Act was an important, historic step in the right direction, but not as a tool for economic democracy, certainly after the assassination of MLK. The women's liberation movement gave women options but has done little to close the pay gap and, in fact, the response by business seems to have been: "Oh good! Now we can require the wife to work for 2/3ds to 3/4rs of her husbands wage and thereby put pressure on rising wages." It would not surprise me to find this having been directly discussed by Chamber of Commerce leaders.
The ideal has largely been forgotten while the implementation of the progressive reforms have been implemented in ways destructive to the original intent but friendly to business, largely due to the influence of business organizations on governments through campaign finance and on public opinion through owned media and 'think tank' propaganda. "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
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