Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

A more complete response:

No. I compared my estimate of the apparent response of the majority of Germans to an economic policy that is unjust, punitive and damaging to foreigners to the response of the majority of Germans to Nazi policy towards minorities. Ignoring something monstrous is different from supporting it.

As to the moral worth of the policies themselves, I feel similarly about the policies of the USA, of which I an a native, towards Latin America, which I find comparable in monstrosity, especially Chile under Allende, Guatemala since 1954, El Salvidor and Honduras, to what the Nazis did, but more insidious, as they are lower in intensity and easier to disguise. And Latin America is only a start.

I have to live with the knowledge that my country, in my name, is daily committing monstrous acts. At least I am willing to acknowledge what I cannot, yet, change.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:49:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

Babbling about the american policies versus South america 40 years past doesn't change that your comment is idiotic, vile and enabling.

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:53:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I am obviously lacking in the ability to compartmentalize.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 04:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

...or in the ability to recognise different sets of meaning and connotation. Not an unusual thing, these days.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:05:11 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

Perhaps. I do not see these things from the same perspective, obviously, but the fact that the '30s were traumatic for so many, not just the obvious victims, should not make those events a taboo for discussion and even comparison. While specific events today are vastly different, it may be that there are commonalities that are at play, however painful that may be to contemplate.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:52:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I am absolutely not advocating to treat them as taboo! I am advocating awareness of the different sets of meaning.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:57:28 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I believe you and your down-thread comments certainly support your assertion.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 06:56:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Enabling of what, and of whom?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:02:54 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

of genocide. of fascism. white-washing and minimizing is enabling.

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:14:11 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)

You know, when you were born Germany had been a democracy for 25 to 30 years and it remains one. But Greece, Spain and Portugal were dictatorships, tolerated by Germany as part of the West (hey, they were in NATO or as close to in it it didn't matter).

So don't fucking go lecturing people about fascism, okay?

And apparently there were a lot of Germans who ceased to be fellow travellers as early as the night of long knives, well before the holocaust was in evidence. So not all conparisons to Nazi Germany have to be about the holocaust. You could have chosen to take ARGeezer's argument along those lines.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

I am lecturing now. Very funny. And spain was what when you were born? And no, calling the citizens of democratic state supporters of a fascist dictatorship is not inside the bounds of discourse.

Do really don't see the problem with the misuse of terms like fascism or dictatorship?

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Not that I like to get this personal, I was born the day after Franco died so we didn't have a democratic constitution until I was 3, we had a involutionist coup when I was 5 and a bit, and we were still having domestic terrorism deaths until just about yesterday. You don't happen to have personal memories of the RAF, I suspect. ETA murdered somebody on my street and exploded one car bomb in the neighbourhood of my school.

Do you want to go on?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

You started this remember?

And in my lifetime, including ma adult life the RAF was still quite active.

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:41:20 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

calling the citizens of democratic state supporters of a fascist dictatorship is not inside the bounds of discourse.

The Greek government is not fascist... yet.

It will qualify as soon as the elections are postponed, however, as Germany is currently demanding that they are.

So yes, Merkel's government is supporting a fascist coup in Greece. And 85 % or so of the German population is cheering on them as they do so.

If you do not see why this is a problem, then you are not a part of the solution.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

If I would live in your alternative timeline, I would see that as a problem too.

Happily I don't.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:44:14 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

What alternative timeline are you talking about?

Are you meaning to say that Schäuble has not suggested that the Greek elections should be postponed?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Let's say for arguments sake, that he has suggested that.

a) are they postponed?

b) will they be postponed?

c) wouldn't that be - up to certain time of course - quite legal under the greek constitution?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:38:54 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

So you are denying that he has, in fact, said that?

And why does Greek compliance or non-compliance with Stasi 2.0's antidemocratic demands make a difference to whether Stasi 2.0 was supporting antidemocratic actions?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:43:21 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

I am never dying nor admitting anything in that respect. I don't know. Was that the famous video or are we talking about more official statements.

To you second question, isn't it quite important to your fascism in greece thesis, if things actually happen?

And my c), isn't a election until 2013 (or 2014) not necessary anyway?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:49:52 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

denying.

I don't make up stories about dying, not even my own.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:51:29 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

You're a joke.

Greece faces call to put off elections

EUROZONE finance ministers are considering a German demand for Greece to postpone its national election as a condition of another huge bailout.
According to diplomats close to the talks, ministers meeting in Brussels tonight to decide on a E130 billion ($159bn) loan package may require a delay to the Greek election due in April so the nation's unelected technocratic government can implement harsher austerity measures.
Germany's demand, which will strengthen Greek claims the rescue package is undemocratic, is being pressed by Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and supported by The Netherlands, Finland and Italy, which, like Greece, is ruled by unelected technocrats.

Also, this just in from the FT: Greece must default if it wants democracy (by Wolfgang Münchau)

When Wolfgang Schäuble proposed that Greece should postpone its elections as a condition for further help, I knew that the game would soon be up. We are at the point where success is no longer compatible with democracy. The German finance minister wants to prevent a "wrong" democratic choice. Similar to this is the suggestion to let the elections go ahead, but to have a grand coalition irrespective of the outcome. The eurozone wants to impose its choice of government on Greece - the eurozone's first colony.
...
A senior German official has told me that his preference is to force Greece into an immediate default. I can therefore only make sense of Mr Schäuble's proposal to postpone elections as a targeted provocation intended to illicit an extreme reaction from Athens. If that was the goal, it seems to be working. Karolos Papoulias, the Greek president, fired back at Mr Schäuble's "insults". Evangelos Venizelos, finance minister, said certain elements wanted to push Greece out of the eurozone. Conspiracy theories abound. Hardly a day passes by without a cartoon in the Greek press of Angela Merkel and Mr Schäuble in Nazi uniforms. German MPs expressed outrage at the Greek outrage. Bild, the German mass-market daily, is calling for Greece to be "kicked out" of the eurozone. I shudder at the thought of an act of violence committed against Germans in Greece or Greeks in Germany. This is the kind of conflict that could easily escalate.
...
The German strategy seems to be to make life so unbearable that the Greeks themselves will want to leave the eurozone. Ms Merkel certainly does not want to be caught with a smoking gun in her hand. It is a strategy of assisted suicide, and one that is extremely dangerous and irresponsible.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

The usual speculation and a link to walled content. Of an australian murdoch newspaper.

But I have looked it up now and he did say something like what. We will see tomorrow how far that is an official demand and more important, if the election are delayed. If the elections go on as planned, can we then lay the endless babbling about fascism to rest?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

What, Stasi 2.0 has suddenly taken to making mouth-noises that are not demands?

And no, we are not going to let you make apologies for Stasi 2.0's support of fascism just because he happens to lose. Because the fact that he happens to lose is not his doing. Support for annulling elections is support for annulling elections, whether elections are held in the end or not.

And no, supporting the annulment of elections is not an acceptable bargaining ploy either, so don't bother making that particular vapid excuse.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

You do know that anulling a election is something quite different?

I know you are on "was it over when the germans bombed pearl harbour" roll, but still.

"And no, supporting the annulment of elections is not an acceptable bargaining ploy either, so don't bother making that particular vapid excuse."

Still makino my arguments in your head?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:51:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

And I will lecturing everybody about fascism I want you self appointed expert.

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:28:45 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

So not all conparisons to Nazi Germany have to be about the holocaust.

There are some cultural differences. They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that. Here the same picture is understood as an accusation about genocide.

It's differences too few people know.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:30:49 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that.

Well, Germans should understand that anti-Nazi resistance nonagenarian heroes are very pissed off. Maybe BILD should point that out to Merkel.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Yes, maybe. I think it is wiser not to rely on Bild doing it, though. That's why I pointed out that metaphors have different meanings in different cultures, right?

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:48:34 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

With Merkel's popularity at a high, I think this is all hopeless.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:56:29 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I am not using the word "hopeless" so quickly. But it is awful.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 06:00:23 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

As it was in the USA when G W Bush had high ratings after invading Iraq.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:58:59 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

Good comparison.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:30:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

There are some cultural differences. They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that. Here the same picture is understood as an accusation about genocide.

If the economic policies she's pushing were implemented throughout the European Union, the number of dead bodies would be similar to the holocaust. The German interpretation of that photoshop may actually be closer to the fact of the matter than the author's intended message.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:55:48 AM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

Possibly. That would be irony then.

It is a matter of communication skills. With these tropes you will definitely get a reaction. If that's all you want, fine. BUT if you have an intended message and want your interlocutor to understand it, I suggest you use something else. Unfair accusations will only drive Merkel's approval rates up, by the way.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:40:12 AM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I guess such communication needs to be more like psychotherapy than rhetoric. Similarly, in the US South, when one points out what seems rather obvious racism the response is a vigorous rally to the color bar. But psychotherapy only works when the subject actually wants to understand what is happening and denial is one of the most powerful psychic defenses and, hence, the most common. When it is overcome it is often by crushing trauma.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 01:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

>If the economic policies she's pushing were implemented throughout the European Union, the number of dead bodies would be similar to the holocaust. <

Nuts, really nuts.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:45:24 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

When Russia was subjected to these policies, approximately one million Russians died, of a population of around 100 million.

The EU has 500 million citizens.

Do the math. It's not that hard.

Of course, if Germany, Austria and the Netherlands were exempted, it would only be 2/3 of the holocaust. But we're still in the right ballpark.

Major industrial depressions are not a fucking game. Get that?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:52:29 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

The holocaust wasn't a game either. Nor a cheap rhetoric trick.

Get that?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:06:24 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

If you don't like that comparison, then maybe you should stop defending policies which, were they implemented everywhere they are being pursued, would give rise to seven-figure body counts.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Of course I only defend these policies in your fantasy.

You really are drunk on your own rhetoric.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:19:47 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

So when I point out that the main enemies of Europe are Merkozy, her minions and the nutters in the BuBa, I'm defending neoliberals in the countries that have suffered German protectionist attacks for the last twenty years.

But when you herpaderp about how unfair it is that I point out the simple fact that the most vocal and most powerful enemies of Europe are all German, then you're not associated with them at all.

I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that's a double standard or not.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:41:26 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

So you "point out" and I "herpaderp".

Is that supposed to be an argument now?

And you are defending neoliberal elites all over europe by giving them the convenient excuse that they are underr attack from Germany. I don't excuse anybody. So yes, that is different behavior.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Herp (none / 1)

Derp

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:01:57 PM EST
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Re: Herp (1.50 / 2)

Asshole.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:03:09 PM EST
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Malkovich? (none / 1)

Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:06:42 PM EST
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Re: Malkovich? (none / 1)

Have I broken you?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:24:48 PM EST
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Re: Malkovich? (4.00 / 3)

Heat/light threshold anybody?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:52:30 AM EST
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Re: Malkovich? (none / 0)

Take a deep breath and count to ten everybody...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:06:56 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

You don't excuse it, you just flat out deny it.

I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that is better or worse than pointing it out.

And yes, you are herpaderping when you not only make elementary mistakes such as failing to net out cyclical flows in a flow of funds model and stonewall when this obvious newbie mistake is pointed out to you.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:10:52 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

This comment really flabbergasted me, so I really feel grateful that you posted it. Are you seriously saying that in Germany, today, just like in the irrelevant subarctic backwater of Sweden with it's completely collapsed history education, the dominant view about WW2 is that it was mainly about the Holocaust, with some fighting on the fringes? Christ...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:54:41 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)

No, not at all. I am entirely concerned with communication within Europe.

Some Greeks sent a message alluding to World War II.
In Germany a message about the Holocaust arrived.
There was only one message.

Shit.

But history education would be another interesting topic.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 04:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

And apparently there were a lot of Germans who ceased to be fellow travellers as early as the night of long knives...

Or worse, had to continue to go along with what they knew was evil to protect the very lives of their family, which I understand. When in a moral swamp there is often no moral move to be made. That is what I fear we are approaching as the Global Financial Rip-Off proceeds unchecked, its true essence studiously ignored by most of the media and politicians.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:03:38 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

I hate to tell you this, IM, but, when it comes to enabling lawless, authoritarian government, even if it does not fully comply with common definitions of fascism, that horse has long left the barn. It is called Uncle Sam. We have just become more subtle in how we handle dissent and opposition as well as how the financial elite manage the political system. Like the Roman Empire, we cling to the forms of the republic to mask the fact that the substance is history. For that it is the blindness of the vast majority of US citizens that is to blame. Being one of them I have to accept my share.

The typical US citizen would react to the above statement much like you reacted to my statement. I had and have no intent to facilitate fascism, here, in Germany or anywhere. Pointing out that self-absorbed blindness to the actions of leaders has and can lead to national disasters is different from 'enabling' such developments. Ignoring those actions is 'enabling', and I have to wonder if your response was tactical.

Neither the Jews, the Germans, the Armenians, the Turks, the North American indigenous people, the USA, Spain or France or any victim or perpetrator population have a monopoly on genocide or domestic terror. Neither do any in those populations have veto authority on the ability of others to discuss what happened and any parallels that can be drawn to prevent recurrence, and that was the clear intent of my comment. I have Cherokee ancestors who came over the Trail of Tears to Oklahoma, where I was raised through Arkansas to which I have retired.

It has taken me a lifetime to come to some understanding of how this and other aspects of my society has affected me and, were you to complain that my understanding is highly imperfect I would certainly agree. At least I do try to understand and I don't try to shut down anyone who wants to discuss the subject, which is what you seem to be trying to do.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 06:53:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I'm wondering about what comparison you are making. All governments are lawless and authoritarian - the difference is just a matter of degree, but of course, that matter of degree is very important.

by rootless2 on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 08:02:51 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

The comparison here was between the real and the ideal depictions of 'democracy', of which I have a somewhat jaundiced view. To me it cannot exist unless it includes a significant degree of economic democracy, and what little we once had has been under attack in the USA since the '60s. What the USA and Germany both have is a highly managed democracy, the implementation of which Bernays would be proud.
(I had a much better link to a facsimile copy before my computer was struck by lightning last July.)

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:01:02 AM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I often see this theory, but I don't really see much evidence. The 1960s started with Jim Crow in full operation and ended in the Nixon era. There was a great deal of freedom for middle class white kids, at least personal freedom, but did the era of Cointelpro and of the Vietnam War had more democracy of any kind than the current era? Was there more "economic democracy" then? How?

The "left" or what remains of it, seems to me to be crippled by a weird nostalgia for what never was.

by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 11:31:17 AM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)

rootless2:

The "left" or what remains of it, seems to me to be crippled by a weird nostalgia for what never was.

LOL, you're a master of the trolly red-rag-to-a-bull.

Why do you care so much about the wheelchair-bound delusionary rump of the scare-quote left?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 11:45:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

I note you don't respond to my argument but focus on labeling. But the answer should be obvious: in the 1960s, the social justice movement loosely speaking, could pretty much be identified with the "left". And at that time "the left" actually meant something and really could be seen as a line of thought stretching back to the first and second internationals. Now though we have a "left" line of thought that heralds back to the height of the cold war as a golden age, from which we have fallen through the Powers of Neoliberalism. I find that to be a peculiar, incoherent, and historically confabulated argument. And it seems to me that the "left" has lost touch with a larger social justice movement.

by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 11:58:29 AM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

rootless2:

focus on labeling

I did so in that comment because you use labelling provocatively. If you only want reponses to your argument, only post your argument.

To which I reply below, and am to some extent in agreement with you.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

The "left" has - same way as the "right" - always been defined from the need to rally a mayority of the political power in order to rule. In Denmark and Norway we have today parties that are called Left - Venstre - as a result of being founded at a time when the defining charactheristica of the left/right divide was related to a) universal and equal voting rights and parliaments power over the executive and b) the abolishment of inherited economic privileges. The scene changed and they ended up on the right, but the party names stayed the same.

So I would disagree, there never was a coherent line of thought, only worse or better narratives.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:59:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

that's true enough, I guess i'm using "left" to refer to "social democrat to communists" but even that's an uneven track.

by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 09:07:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

rootless2:

The 1960s started with Jim Crow in full operation and ended in the Nixon era.

The '60s ended with Jim Crow over and done with, and Nixon thrown out of the White House - a couple of details your account left out.

Did the end of Jim Crow mean economic equality for African-Americans? No.

Did the end of Nixon mean a definitive step forward for democracy in America? No.

Was there greater "economic democracy" at that time than now? There was less income and wealth inequality, and the rise in lower incomes gave people the feeling they were part of society and not its garbage.

Was there more freedom? There were gains in freedom, and not only for middle-class white kids (and not only in America). The Civil Rights movement and radical middle-class white movement gave the impression the world was going to be changed. Was that impression confirmed by events? No. But it's not something that never existed, and neither was it insignificant.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:00:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Aggregate wealth inequality measures are deceptive. For example, do you really want to argue that in the USA there was less wealth inequality before the women's liberation movement and the various equal pay acts?

by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Do I want to go down your chosen rathole? No.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 12:32:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

It was your claim, not mine.

by rootless2 on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:52:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

I often see this theory, but I don't really see much evidence.

I was referring to workplace democracy, which was present in the '60s mostly as an ideal, i.e. the SDS manifesto. This has largely been driven out of the public debate, though some creative companies have seen the competitive advantages and moved in that direction, so, while there are some trade-offs, as a tool to transform society, and especially as a tool that might be reenforced by law and regulation, it has been largely forgotten and is no current threat to 'market discipline'.

The Civil Rights Act was an important, historic step in the right direction, but not as a tool for economic democracy, certainly after the assassination of MLK. The women's liberation movement gave women options but has done little to close the pay gap and, in fact, the response by business seems to have been: "Oh good! Now we can require the wife to work for 2/3ds to 3/4rs of her husbands wage and thereby put pressure on rising wages." It would not surprise me to find this having been directly discussed by Chamber of Commerce leaders.

The ideal has largely been forgotten while the implementation of the progressive reforms have been implemented in ways destructive to the original intent but friendly to business, largely due to the influence of business organizations on governments through campaign finance and on public opinion through owned media and 'think tank' propaganda.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 10:51:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

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