Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

of genocide. of fascism. white-washing and minimizing is enabling.

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:14:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)

You know, when you were born Germany had been a democracy for 25 to 30 years and it remains one. But Greece, Spain and Portugal were dictatorships, tolerated by Germany as part of the West (hey, they were in NATO or as close to in it it didn't matter).

So don't fucking go lecturing people about fascism, okay?

And apparently there were a lot of Germans who ceased to be fellow travellers as early as the night of long knives, well before the holocaust was in evidence. So not all conparisons to Nazi Germany have to be about the holocaust. You could have chosen to take ARGeezer's argument along those lines.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:19:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

I am lecturing now. Very funny. And spain was what when you were born? And no, calling the citizens of democratic state supporters of a fascist dictatorship is not inside the bounds of discourse.

Do really don't see the problem with the misuse of terms like fascism or dictatorship?

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:27:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Not that I like to get this personal, I was born the day after Franco died so we didn't have a democratic constitution until I was 3, we had a involutionist coup when I was 5 and a bit, and we were still having domestic terrorism deaths until just about yesterday. You don't happen to have personal memories of the RAF, I suspect. ETA murdered somebody on my street and exploded one car bomb in the neighbourhood of my school.

Do you want to go on?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:38:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

You started this remember?

And in my lifetime, including ma adult life the RAF was still quite active.

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

calling the citizens of democratic state supporters of a fascist dictatorship is not inside the bounds of discourse.

The Greek government is not fascist... yet.

It will qualify as soon as the elections are postponed, however, as Germany is currently demanding that they are.

So yes, Merkel's government is supporting a fascist coup in Greece. And 85 % or so of the German population is cheering on them as they do so.

If you do not see why this is a problem, then you are not a part of the solution.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

If I would live in your alternative timeline, I would see that as a problem too.

Happily I don't.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:44:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

What alternative timeline are you talking about?

Are you meaning to say that Schäuble has not suggested that the Greek elections should be postponed?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:31:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Let's say for arguments sake, that he has suggested that.

a) are they postponed?

b) will they be postponed?

c) wouldn't that be - up to certain time of course - quite legal under the greek constitution?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:38:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

So you are denying that he has, in fact, said that?

And why does Greek compliance or non-compliance with Stasi 2.0's antidemocratic demands make a difference to whether Stasi 2.0 was supporting antidemocratic actions?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:43:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

I am never dying nor admitting anything in that respect. I don't know. Was that the famous video or are we talking about more official statements.

To you second question, isn't it quite important to your fascism in greece thesis, if things actually happen?

And my c), isn't a election until 2013 (or 2014) not necessary anyway?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:49:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

denying.

I don't make up stories about dying, not even my own.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

You're a joke.

Greece faces call to put off elections

EUROZONE finance ministers are considering a German demand for Greece to postpone its national election as a condition of another huge bailout.
According to diplomats close to the talks, ministers meeting in Brussels tonight to decide on a E130 billion ($159bn) loan package may require a delay to the Greek election due in April so the nation's unelected technocratic government can implement harsher austerity measures.
Germany's demand, which will strengthen Greek claims the rescue package is undemocratic, is being pressed by Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble and supported by The Netherlands, Finland and Italy, which, like Greece, is ruled by unelected technocrats.

Also, this just in from the FT: Greece must default if it wants democracy (by Wolfgang Münchau)

When Wolfgang Schäuble proposed that Greece should postpone its elections as a condition for further help, I knew that the game would soon be up. We are at the point where success is no longer compatible with democracy. The German finance minister wants to prevent a "wrong" democratic choice. Similar to this is the suggestion to let the elections go ahead, but to have a grand coalition irrespective of the outcome. The eurozone wants to impose its choice of government on Greece - the eurozone's first colony.
...
A senior German official has told me that his preference is to force Greece into an immediate default. I can therefore only make sense of Mr Schäuble's proposal to postpone elections as a targeted provocation intended to illicit an extreme reaction from Athens. If that was the goal, it seems to be working. Karolos Papoulias, the Greek president, fired back at Mr Schäuble's "insults". Evangelos Venizelos, finance minister, said certain elements wanted to push Greece out of the eurozone. Conspiracy theories abound. Hardly a day passes by without a cartoon in the Greek press of Angela Merkel and Mr Schäuble in Nazi uniforms. German MPs expressed outrage at the Greek outrage. Bild, the German mass-market daily, is calling for Greece to be "kicked out" of the eurozone. I shudder at the thought of an act of violence committed against Germans in Greece or Greeks in Germany. This is the kind of conflict that could easily escalate.
...
The German strategy seems to be to make life so unbearable that the Greeks themselves will want to leave the eurozone. Ms Merkel certainly does not want to be caught with a smoking gun in her hand. It is a strategy of assisted suicide, and one that is extremely dangerous and irresponsible.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

The usual speculation and a link to walled content. Of an australian murdoch newspaper.

But I have looked it up now and he did say something like what. We will see tomorrow how far that is an official demand and more important, if the election are delayed. If the elections go on as planned, can we then lay the endless babbling about fascism to rest?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

What, Stasi 2.0 has suddenly taken to making mouth-noises that are not demands?

And no, we are not going to let you make apologies for Stasi 2.0's support of fascism just because he happens to lose. Because the fact that he happens to lose is not his doing. Support for annulling elections is support for annulling elections, whether elections are held in the end or not.

And no, supporting the annulment of elections is not an acceptable bargaining ploy either, so don't bother making that particular vapid excuse.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

You do know that anulling a election is something quite different?

I know you are on "was it over when the germans bombed pearl harbour" roll, but still.

"And no, supporting the annulment of elections is not an acceptable bargaining ploy either, so don't bother making that particular vapid excuse."

Still makino my arguments in your head?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:51:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

And I will lecturing everybody about fascism I want you self appointed expert.

by IM on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:28:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

So not all conparisons to Nazi Germany have to be about the holocaust.

There are some cultural differences. They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that. Here the same picture is understood as an accusation about genocide.

It's differences too few people know.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that.

Well, Germans should understand that anti-Nazi resistance nonagenarian heroes are very pissed off. Maybe BILD should point that out to Merkel.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Yes, maybe. I think it is wiser not to rely on Bild doing it, though. That's why I pointed out that metaphors have different meanings in different cultures, right?

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:48:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

With Merkel's popularity at a high, I think this is all hopeless.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I am not using the word "hopeless" so quickly. But it is awful.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 06:00:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

As it was in the USA when G W Bush had high ratings after invading Iraq.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

Good comparison.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:30:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

There are some cultural differences. They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that. Here the same picture is understood as an accusation about genocide.

If the economic policies she's pushing were implemented throughout the European Union, the number of dead bodies would be similar to the holocaust. The German interpretation of that photoshop may actually be closer to the fact of the matter than the author's intended message.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:55:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

Possibly. That would be irony then.

It is a matter of communication skills. With these tropes you will definitely get a reaction. If that's all you want, fine. BUT if you have an intended message and want your interlocutor to understand it, I suggest you use something else. Unfair accusations will only drive Merkel's approval rates up, by the way.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:40:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I guess such communication needs to be more like psychotherapy than rhetoric. Similarly, in the US South, when one points out what seems rather obvious racism the response is a vigorous rally to the color bar. But psychotherapy only works when the subject actually wants to understand what is happening and denial is one of the most powerful psychic defenses and, hence, the most common. When it is overcome it is often by crushing trauma.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 01:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

>If the economic policies she's pushing were implemented throughout the European Union, the number of dead bodies would be similar to the holocaust. <

Nuts, really nuts.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

When Russia was subjected to these policies, approximately one million Russians died, of a population of around 100 million.

The EU has 500 million citizens.

Do the math. It's not that hard.

Of course, if Germany, Austria and the Netherlands were exempted, it would only be 2/3 of the holocaust. But we're still in the right ballpark.

Major industrial depressions are not a fucking game. Get that?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:52:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

The holocaust wasn't a game either. Nor a cheap rhetoric trick.

Get that?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

If you don't like that comparison, then maybe you should stop defending policies which, were they implemented everywhere they are being pursued, would give rise to seven-figure body counts.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Of course I only defend these policies in your fantasy.

You really are drunk on your own rhetoric.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

So when I point out that the main enemies of Europe are Merkozy, her minions and the nutters in the BuBa, I'm defending neoliberals in the countries that have suffered German protectionist attacks for the last twenty years.

But when you herpaderp about how unfair it is that I point out the simple fact that the most vocal and most powerful enemies of Europe are all German, then you're not associated with them at all.

I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that's a double standard or not.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

So you "point out" and I "herpaderp".

Is that supposed to be an argument now?

And you are defending neoliberal elites all over europe by giving them the convenient excuse that they are underr attack from Germany. I don't excuse anybody. So yes, that is different behavior.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Herp (none / 1)

Derp

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:01:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herp (1.50 / 2)

Asshole.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:03:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Malkovich? (none / 1)

Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:06:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Malkovich? (none / 1)

Have I broken you?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Malkovich? (4.00 / 3)

Heat/light threshold anybody?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:52:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Malkovich? (none / 0)

Take a deep breath and count to ten everybody...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:06:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

You don't excuse it, you just flat out deny it.

I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that is better or worse than pointing it out.

And yes, you are herpaderping when you not only make elementary mistakes such as failing to net out cyclical flows in a flow of funds model and stonewall when this obvious newbie mistake is pointed out to you.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:10:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

This comment really flabbergasted me, so I really feel grateful that you posted it. Are you seriously saying that in Germany, today, just like in the irrelevant subarctic backwater of Sweden with it's completely collapsed history education, the dominant view about WW2 is that it was mainly about the Holocaust, with some fighting on the fringes? Christ...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)

No, not at all. I am entirely concerned with communication within Europe.

Some Greeks sent a message alluding to World War II.
In Germany a message about the Holocaust arrived.
There was only one message.

Shit.

But history education would be another interesting topic.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 04:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

And apparently there were a lot of Germans who ceased to be fellow travellers as early as the night of long knives...

Or worse, had to continue to go along with what they knew was evil to protect the very lives of their family, which I understand. When in a moral swamp there is often no moral move to be made. That is what I fear we are approaching as the Global Financial Rip-Off proceeds unchecked, its true essence studiously ignored by most of the media and politicians.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:03:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

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