Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

So not all conparisons to Nazi Germany have to be about the holocaust.

There are some cultural differences. They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that. Here the same picture is understood as an accusation about genocide.

It's differences too few people know.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:30:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that.

Well, Germans should understand that anti-Nazi resistance nonagenarian heroes are very pissed off. Maybe BILD should point that out to Merkel.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:40:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Yes, maybe. I think it is wiser not to rely on Bild doing it, though. That's why I pointed out that metaphors have different meanings in different cultures, right?

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:48:34 PM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

With Merkel's popularity at a high, I think this is all hopeless.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 05:56:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I am not using the word "hopeless" so quickly. But it is awful.

by Katrin on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 06:00:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

As it was in the USA when G W Bush had high ratings after invading Iraq.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sat Feb 18th, 2012 at 07:58:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

Good comparison.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:30:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

There are some cultural differences. They are there, don't pretend anything else. Merkel with swastika in a Greek paper is a statement about occupation and lost sovereignty. Germans don't understand that. Here the same picture is understood as an accusation about genocide.

If the economic policies she's pushing were implemented throughout the European Union, the number of dead bodies would be similar to the holocaust. The German interpretation of that photoshop may actually be closer to the fact of the matter than the author's intended message.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 02:55:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

Possibly. That would be irony then.

It is a matter of communication skills. With these tropes you will definitely get a reaction. If that's all you want, fine. BUT if you have an intended message and want your interlocutor to understand it, I suggest you use something else. Unfair accusations will only drive Merkel's approval rates up, by the way.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 03:40:12 AM EST
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Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

I guess such communication needs to be more like psychotherapy than rhetoric. Similarly, in the US South, when one points out what seems rather obvious racism the response is a vigorous rally to the color bar. But psychotherapy only works when the subject actually wants to understand what is happening and denial is one of the most powerful psychic defenses and, hence, the most common. When it is overcome it is often by crushing trauma.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 01:16:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

>If the economic policies she's pushing were implemented throughout the European Union, the number of dead bodies would be similar to the holocaust. <

Nuts, really nuts.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

When Russia was subjected to these policies, approximately one million Russians died, of a population of around 100 million.

The EU has 500 million citizens.

Do the math. It's not that hard.

Of course, if Germany, Austria and the Netherlands were exempted, it would only be 2/3 of the holocaust. But we're still in the right ballpark.

Major industrial depressions are not a fucking game. Get that?

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 05:52:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

The holocaust wasn't a game either. Nor a cheap rhetoric trick.

Get that?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:06:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 1)

If you don't like that comparison, then maybe you should stop defending policies which, were they implemented everywhere they are being pursued, would give rise to seven-figure body counts.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

Of course I only defend these policies in your fantasy.

You really are drunk on your own rhetoric.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

So when I point out that the main enemies of Europe are Merkozy, her minions and the nutters in the BuBa, I'm defending neoliberals in the countries that have suffered German protectionist attacks for the last twenty years.

But when you herpaderp about how unfair it is that I point out the simple fact that the most vocal and most powerful enemies of Europe are all German, then you're not associated with them at all.

I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that's a double standard or not.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

So you "point out" and I "herpaderp".

Is that supposed to be an argument now?

And you are defending neoliberal elites all over europe by giving them the convenient excuse that they are underr attack from Germany. I don't excuse anybody. So yes, that is different behavior.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 06:59:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Herp (none / 1)

Derp

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:01:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Herp (1.50 / 2)

Asshole.

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:03:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Malkovich? (none / 1)

Malkovich Malkovich Malkovich

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:06:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Malkovich? (none / 1)

Have I broken you?

by IM on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Malkovich? (4.00 / 3)

Heat/light threshold anybody?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:52:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Malkovich? (none / 0)

Take a deep breath and count to ten everybody...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:06:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (none / 0)

You don't excuse it, you just flat out deny it.

I'll leave it to the reader to judge whether that is better or worse than pointing it out.

And yes, you are herpaderping when you not only make elementary mistakes such as failing to net out cyclical flows in a flow of funds model and stonewall when this obvious newbie mistake is pointed out to you.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Feb 19th, 2012 at 07:10:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 2)

This comment really flabbergasted me, so I really feel grateful that you posted it. Are you seriously saying that in Germany, today, just like in the irrelevant subarctic backwater of Sweden with it's completely collapsed history education, the dominant view about WW2 is that it was mainly about the Holocaust, with some fighting on the fringes? Christ...

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 01:54:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy (4.00 / 3)

No, not at all. I am entirely concerned with communication within Europe.

Some Greeks sent a message alluding to World War II.
In Germany a message about the Holocaust arrived.
There was only one message.

Shit.

But history education would be another interesting topic.

by Katrin on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 04:11:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)

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