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Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
100.000 Greeks won't starve to death, jesus. At worst they'll emigrate to Germany and live on the dole, which would have a certain poetic justice to it.

a) Not how excess mortality from economic deprivation works.

b) Just to underscore the serious nature of the policies the Germans (and their friends) are imposing on Greece, you cite mass depopulation as a preferable alternative to the policies currently being implemented. How is that solution any different from the forcible relocation of a conquered population? Except that it's carried out by stealing the victims' hospitals and water, rather than by waving a gun at their face.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:49:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
This isn't the 30's, nor is it third world Russia.

Speaking of population transfers, that's not a bug of the EMU project, it's a feature. Google "optimum currency area".

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:52:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
If population transfer at gunpoint is a feature of the EMU, then I want out.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
No guns involved. But people got to move where the jobs are. Or they will be unemployed. That's life in a single currency. We see that in Sweden as well, where the inland and the north is being depopulated.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:02:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
But we have a bunch of programs and transfers that keeps the depopulation slow and steady.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:12:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
As has the EU, in the form of those regional support funds.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:19:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
The policies currently being imposed on Greece are going to involve rather a lot of guns long before it gets to the point of mass depopulation.

That the guns will be applied to those who do not leave rather than those who do does not make it any less a depopulation at gunpoint.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:16:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
I don't know about gunpoint...

El Pais: La CEOE pide quitar la prestación a quien rechace cualquier oferta de empleo

Feito ha abogado, además, por abordar cuestiones eludidas como el subsidio de desempleo, que debe ser retirado al beneficiario en cuanto no acepte la primera oferta de empleo. Ha remarcado que en el resto de países europeos es "inconcebible" que los desempleados cobren paro si han recibido una oferta de trabajo. "Como si es en Laponia", ha subrayado. Por otra parte, ha defendido que eliminar puestos de trabajo en las Administraciones no generará más paro, pues liberará fondos públicos para pagar a proveedores y que éstas puedan volver a contratar.
The [Spanish Business Owner Association] CEOE demands the withdrawal of [unemployment] subsidies from those who reject any job offer
Feito also advocated to tackle issues evaded [by the recent labour reform] such as the unemployment subsidy, which must be taken away from the beneficiary as soon as they don't accept the first job offer. He stressed that in the rest of European countries it is  "inconceivable" that the unemployed receive payments if they have had a job offer. "Even if it is in Lappland", he underscored. On the other hand, he defended that to eliminate jobs in the public administrations will not generate more unemployment, since it will free up resources to pay providers so that these can rehire.
Nothing against Lappland per se, you know, but there aren't even jobs for all the Finns there...

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:05:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (4.00 / 2)
There are lots of EU states that don't require you to take the first job offer you get. And the employers in all of them say the same damn thing about the others.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:08:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Also, if you are forced to take such a job under any conditions, are you freely entering into your labour contract?

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:54:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Freedom is such a relative notion...
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 05:40:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Has ever a cleaner of toilets signed their labour contract freely, or only because they need the money badly?
by Katrin on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:15:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
However, even if they need the money badly they may be able to reject a particularly bad or inconvenient offer and not lose benefits.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:31:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Completely agree with that. I was just pointing at the relativity of the "free will".
by Katrin on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:37:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
The point is that the Spanish patrons want to leave none.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 06:41:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
Lappland has an unemployment rate of about 2%. All skilled Greek miners are welcome. Hell, all unqualified Greeks who want to work hard for high salaries and feel like going to one year mining school in Sweden are welcome to Lappland.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:10:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
This might sound ironic but it isn't: Where does one start to find more info on this? I know some younger people who'd jump at the chance if the pay is decent.

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:47:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
I would guess Starvid refers to this:

Job Seekers - LKAB

Work with us

LKAB will hire 1,200 people over the next three years. That's almost two a day. We're offering exciting career opportunities in 30 companies in 14 different countries! And there are 200 different positions to choose from.

There may be talk of crisis in Europe and of unrest on the American market, but the reality in Sweden's northern orefields is a bit contradictory. LKAB's new main levels, the build up of extra capacity and the three new mine projects in Svappavaara combined with retirements in large numbers all contribute to our record recruitment needs. We may very soon suffer a lack of manpower resources. We will need an enormously broad skills spectrum ranging from various types of civil engineers and specialist positions as well as mechanics, mine workers and electricians.

Because LKAB is the dominant mining company.

Though I have no idea what the 2% number refers to, unemployment in Sweden is mostly calculated on regional basis, placing Lappland in both Norrbotten and Västerbotten, neither having a 2% unemployment or anything close to it.

It was btw mentioned on the news the other day that Greek workers migration to Sweden has increased significantly.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 05:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Not only LKAB, but Northland resources as well. Same for all the associated support companies. Unemployment in Norrbotten is what I referred too. I've read somewhere that the latest unemployment numbers were 2.3%. On top of this, Sweden has a succesful history of labour immigration during the 50's and 60's, mainly from Italy, Hungary and Greece.

Anyway, here is information (in Swedish!) about the one year study program.

Job applications should be sent to LKAB, Boliden, Lundin Mining or Dannemora Mineral ("my" mine, yay). A command of Swedish is probably needed, or at worst, excellent English skills. And make no mistake: mining is no more the simple job where you just need big muscles and thick skull. The jobs are about operating very expensive and very heavy machinery, so previous experience of that kind is likely very useful.

Average pay for a miner who is 25-39 years old is 27900 kronor per month, which is 3000 euros. Foreign labour is sorely needed to combat miner wage inflation and the kinda militant unions. ;)

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 09:23:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
PS. As mentioned above, not only underground workers are needed, but engineers, mechanics and so on. If you know people who are good at fixing heavy duty diesel engines or electric motors, well, it doesn't hurt at least sending some e-mails.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 09:44:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Starvid:
Unemployment in Norrbotten is what I referred too. I've read somewhere that the latest unemployment numbers were 2.3%.

Svenskt Näringsliv disagrees. 7,8% vs a national average of 7,5% for 2011. The numbers comes from SCB.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:46:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Well there you go. Possible was unemployment in Kiruna then?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 05:09:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
That sounds more likely. Kiruna has what, 25000 inhabitants? (And is half the size of Belgium...) So with a boom in the mine and a relocation project that moves the town in order to make way for more mining they should have really low unemployment right now.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Wed Feb 22nd, 2012 at 08:58:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
And BTW: "mining school" and similar "hurdles to the opening of professions and entrepreneurship" are now a thing of the past in Greece.  What Munchau said about the "categorical imperative"...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 21st, 2012 at 04:54:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Swedish, Finnish or Norwegian Lappland?

Assuming it is Swedish Lappland, you loose benefits in Sweden if you turn down a job offer with a salary that is more then 90% of your unemployment benefits and there is also rules on what counts as a manageble distance (that grows with time). So no.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:20:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
You never ever lose Socialbidrag. Not even if you're a drug addict who entirely refuse to cooperate with the authorities.

"Försörjningsstöd har utgetts till missbrukare för kostnader för bl.a. bostad, trots att han inte följt uppgjord behandlingsplanering enligt Regeringsrättens dom RÅ 2009 ref 103.[3] Missbrukaren anförde i målet att han om han inte fick försörjningsstöd skulle mista sin bostad och "måste driva runt på stan". Det finns en politisk önskan att ingen i Sverige skall tvingas sova utomhus, svälta eller känna sig tvungen att begå brott för att få pengar till mat."

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:27:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (4.00 / 2)
I was talking about A-kassa.

But do note that that is a drug addict that is willing and able to appeal his case all the way. Not all druga addicts are.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:34:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
Acceding or refusing medical treatment can't be used as a criterion for punitive measures, though.

Unless you want to skirt the edge of the Nürnberg Declaration on medical ethics. Which you usually don't want to do.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 05:39:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 1)
So, is Canary Islands to Umeå a manageable distance by Swedish standards?

Because it is for the Spanish CEOE.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:33:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
You spent much time in Greece?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 02:58:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
More than in any other country bar Sweden. But it was a long time ago.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:03:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
It's improved, but still reminds me of Ireland 20 years ago. Which is still catching up with the core of ten years ago ...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:05:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Re: Demonization (none / 0)
Oh, it's going to get worse than both.

tens of millions of people stand to see their lives ruined because the bureaucrats at the ECB don't understand introductory economics -- Dean Baker
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Feb 20th, 2012 at 03:19:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Debts, promises and the erosion of democracy | 423 comments (422 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
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