Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
Display:
There have been considerable currency transfers out of Greek banks, but there have been no bank runs. Which is a great mystery actually, as a bank run would be the rational thing at this stage.  If I had euros in a Greek bank account, I'd transfer them out of the country ASAP.

I think you're interestingly wrong.

First, the circumstantial evidence:

German banks target worried Greeks in Germany

Greeks worried about a debt restructuring or a euro exit increasingly transfer their money to banks abroad, Bild-Zeitung reports. According to the mass circulation tabloid German banks such a savings bank in Munich have posted signs in their windows advertising in Greek and German that Greek costumers will be advised in Greek. According to the paper €30bn have already been transferred from Greece abroad since the crisis started.

(May 2011)

So that's 30 billion in a year, easily 15% of GDP.

Now let's look at Target2 balances:

... The first point to clarify is that there appears to be absolutely no correlation between the current account data of Greece and the TARGET2 balances.  In fact, Greece has been running a constant CAD since it joined the Euro, yet TARGET2 balance discrepancies didn't start showing up until 2008 which is the time Greece's CAD actually began to improve.

(Professor Sinn strays off target, 14 March 2012)

It does look like a run on the country to me. And in fact it started in 2008 because of the generalised flight to safety that started then.

It's only because of the existence of the European System of Central Banks that we haven't actually seen an Albania-style (forget Russia, that's for wimps) banking crisis in Greece.  Of course the German economic establishment is making noises about how they would like to actually use the Target2 balances to cause just such a crisis in the European periphery.

So, I'm sorry to say, both you and Jerome are wrong on this one. I said interestingly wrong because you'd be right before about 1970 when electronic banking started (I'm taking the emergence of ATM technology as a watershed).

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 06:08:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not a run, that's a walk.

A bank run does mean people hysterically fighting to enter into banks to gain physical access to cash or to their accounts. On a national scale. I saw that happen in Moscow (in that case they changed banknotes over night and people were only allowed to change a small number of the larger banknotes - those that everybody used for non-dollar savings - per person, it's not pretty. That where you see exchange rates move on an hourly basis or more frequently, and people get desperate and do desperate things.

That happened at least twice in 92-93. Then in 98 you had another kind of run - the internal kind, with banks closing overnight and savers losing it all (but well-informed insiders allowed to withdraw money before doors closed. Several of my Russian friends who were supposed to come to my wedding in September 1998 did not make it because they were ruined or too busy trying to salvage some of their assets.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:01:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What do you call the loss of access of French banks to Eurodollar liquidity last August? Also a walk?

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:04:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nothing which could not be resolved by timely central bank intervention to maintain financial stability, which after all is the job of central banks.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:06:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know as well as I do that's not the job of the Bundesbank, or of the ECB as understood by the Bundesbank.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:08:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still, they did intervene and they did resolve the issue.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:14:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes, as long as it's banks and not sovereigns that are being liquidity-squeezed, it's all right.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's a US problem, not a eurozone problem, in that they don't have a banking system that does infrastructure funding and have to rely on outsiders, whom they can on a whim decide are not trustworthy, thereby shooting themselves (and them alone) in the foot in the process. Why should we care whether European banks get access to dollars or not?

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I beg to differ. The French banks would have keeled over were it not for emergency operations such as this because the ECB itself didn't have enough dollars to backstop the dollar liquidity needs of the French banks once the Eurodollar deposits evaporated.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:15:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the intervention happened. Even a broken clock shows the right time twice a day.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:18:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, intervention by the Fed (not by the ECB, but through the ECB, for practical reasons) to save their part of the system.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:22:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The ECB was not doing their job. What American institutions were being saved, when it was the French banks that had the liquidity problems? Who was rescued from the impending doom of missing payments on USD interest rate swaps?

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The US money markets were rescued.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:29:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, no wrong was going to befall any French institutions after defaulting on their dollar obligations?

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:33:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
why the fuck do you keep on putting in my mouth things I haven't said?

Of course they'd be in deep shit, as in officially bankrupt, but then there's nothing preventing their regulator from taking them over and letting creditors live with that - especially foreign creditors in a foreign currency (they'd probably get access to the USD portfolio, which are probably decently sound, and that would actually be settled relatively easily). The  euro-side bankruptcy would be a good thing, by forcing the dezombiefication of the bank, but that would make the wrong people unhappy - again, less of a problem for France, which could nationalize the local bits and just let the international stuff become a bad bank, à la Dexia (where Belgium took back the retail/local bank), but without the state guarantees.


Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:44:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because you keep pretending it was just the US that had a problem here. It was the Europeans who were rescued from default.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:46:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why should we care whether European banks get access to dollars or not?

Hello? <facepalm>

Because they have large asset portfolios denominated in US Dollars which require access to dollar funding?

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:18:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Again, why should we care. The only people that would suffer if the European banks could not rollover their dollar funding were the US money markets who lent them these dollars.

Sure, that could turn systemic, but you keep on explaining that central banks have ways to solves systemic problems. and in that case, that would have been the job of the Fed, which is supposedly sane.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I submit the situation would have been French (not American) banks defaulting on their US Dollar obligations, which is a problem for the Banque de France and by Extension the ECB which had to be rescued by the Fed.

You'll remember Dean Baker's Time for the Fed to Take Over the European Central Bank's Job

In this case the Fed would be intervening in the European economy for the same reason as China - to sustain our domestic economy. If the eurozone collapses, there are no easy tools in the Fed's bag of tricks that will allow it to quickly offset the negative impact on the U.S. economy. It would make far more sense to act preemptively to prevent this disaster from happening. This can be seen as an essential part of its legal mandate to maintain full employment.

Of course this sort of intervention will look horrible from the standpoint of the eurozone countries. It will appear as though they cannot be trusted to manage their own central bank and deal with their own economic affairs.

Unfortunately, this is the case. They have entrusted the continent's most important economic institution to a group of ideological zealots who are infatuated by the sight of low inflation rates even as whole economies collapse in ruins and tens of millions of people needlessly go unemployed.

Perhaps the Europeans will respond to this affront by putting some serious people in charge of the ECB who are committed to maintaining a functioning economy in the eurozone.  If that is the outcome, it will be a win-win for all involved. But if they can't rise to the task, we should not allow the ECB ideologues to wreak havoc on the lives of tens of millions of innocent people in Europe, the developing world and here in the United States.



There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:29:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess we're not in a crisis, then, just a hiccup.

See you at the other side of the Depression, maybe in 2025...

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:05:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
saying there  are no "bank runs" as such is not saying that it's not a crisis, just being a bit less hyperbolic. Your point below that the financial system is broken is correct.

Wind power
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Still, there are bank runs. The fact that there isn't an interbank market means there are runs on most banks, being papered over by the ECB.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:25:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well yes, back to the core problem, which is bankrupt banks whose bankruptcies have not yet been acknowledged. Zombie banks, and we are sacrificing our economies to save their creditors.

This is not a euro problem, this is a massive scale redistribution problem. The only euro problem I see is that we proved that we can't have euro-zone convergence the easy way, i.e. via private-debt fueled consumption. It needs t be public transfers for investment.

Wind power

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:28:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It needs to be public transfers for investment.

I submit this is, in practice, forbidden by the Eurozone's constituent regulations.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:30:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Even if you'd cancel out all the debt by having the banks write down their loans, you'd still have a number of periphery nations who just aren't competitive, and who won't bounce back until the EU lets them, or we wait out the grinding internal devaluation, which eventually will result in full employment. In the long run.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:31:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
who won't bounce back until the EU lets them

I'm not holding my breath.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:31:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
grinding internal devaluation, which eventually will result in full employment. In the long run.
Sorry, no.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sooner or later the resistance to nominal wage cuts will fade (when the pain gets intense enough), salaries will fall, and you'll see an export-led resurgence. But if this will require 3 years of recession or 10, is an open question.

But I think it far more likely that before the levels of pain needed to achieve that are reached, countries will choose to leave the Eurozone.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:36:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People will die f lack of health care before "competitiveness" is restored.

I have made the point repeatedly that the same worker is very much more productive with better physical plant. Therefore, there are two ways to "improve" accounting measures of worker productivity. To punish the worker for having to work with crap equipment, or to invest in improving their equipment.

The capitalists who decided to not invest in proper equipment in the first place are not punished, only the workers who had no say in the matter.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:39:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
there are two ways to "improve" accounting measures of worker productivity

Which are not mutually exclusive.

The capitalists who decided to not invest in proper equipment in the first place are not punished, only the workers who had no say in the matter.

The capitalist which does not run a successful plant will go broke and lose the thing that makes him a capitalist: his capital.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:42:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The capitalist which does not run a successful plant will go broke and lose the thing that makes him a capitalist: his capital.

Hmm, limited liability and political connections.

We're talking oligarchy here.

And when their country goes to hell the government borrows from the IMF in order to prop the exchange rate long enough for them to get their savings out at a favourable rate. Or, in the case of the Eurozone, the government refuses to institute capital controls and accepts "rescue" after "rescue" while the oligarchs decamp to Luxembourg with their money.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:45:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also, after 3 to 5 years of depression the physical plant itself is degraded beyond repair (like a tissue starved of blood gets gangrenous or necrotic). Then there's no wage level that will restore competitiveness because the job is lost.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:43:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Low salaries beget new investment, and if the domestic capitalist are bled dry, it will come in the form of foreign direct investment.

Anyway, much plant (except in heavy industry) becomes outdated and is written off pretty quickly, even if not in 3 years.


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Low salaries beget new investment, and if the domestic capitalist are bled dry, it will come in the form of foreign direct investment.

Want to bet on how long it takes for FDI into Greece to pick up? Do you think it makes a difference how many people die of the effects of economic depression in the interim?

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:51:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a perfect instance of in the long run, we're all dead. For rather short values of long run.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:51:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you can't fund basic services to the degree that it results in mass casualties, you'd better start raising taxes.

But this doesn't change what I say. Even if you get an increased mortality, you will eventually return to full employment via salary cuts. It won't be fun and it won't be pretty and most importantly it will be a really stupid way to do things, but eventually you will reach full employment.

I'm not arguing this is the good way to do things, I'm just saying that eventually that's what will happen, even if I also think the devaluation road is far more politically likely (and a lot smarter).

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:55:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If you can't fund basic services to the degree that it results in mass casualties, you'd better start raising taxes.

You know the reason basic services in Greece are failing is not the taxes have not been raised. But, of course, the middle of a recession is the wrong time to fire your doctors and nurses and raise taxes on everyone else.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:57:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know I don't disagree with you here. I am after all a Keynesian.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You sound a lot like a Samuelsonian.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:02:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Who just happened to be one of the most influential Keynesian economists ever.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:06:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]


Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:49:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Then, neither is Paul Krugman. But I suppose you prefer Joan "North Korea" Robinson?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Mar 18th, 2012 at 09:39:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Krugman is indeed a neoclassical rather than a Keynesian.

I don't know Robinson, but from a cursory perusal of Google, her contributions to economic theory look respectable enough.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:29:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sigh... It is not really helpful to the clarity of the debate to invent new definitions whom no one use, but yourself.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Mar 18th, 2012 at 01:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's not conducive to debate to accept and repeat neoclassical newspeak.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 05:58:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What kind of an argument is that?

What if we call him Paul "Mahathir" Krugman?

Milton "Pinochet" Friedman was correct that monetary contraction made the Great Depression worse.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 04:56:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And still, people complain over Friedman advising Pinochet on economic issues, all the time.

While I haven't read any of Robinsons texts (and I should), I kinda find it hard to believe that someone who thought the Cultural Revolution was an excellent idea from a social and economic point of view, really has any reality-based advice to offer us,

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 08:22:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wikipedia: Joan Robinson
Initially a supporter of neoclassical economics, she changed her mind after getting acquainted with John Maynard Keynes. As a member of "the Cambridge School" of economics, Robinson assisted with the support and exposition of Keynes' General Theory, writing especially on its employment implications in 1936 and 1937 (it attempted to explain employment dynamics in the midst of the Great Depression).

In 1933, in her book, The Economics of Imperfect Competition, Robinson coined the term "monopsony," which is used to describe the buyer converse of a seller monopoly.

In 1942 Robinson's An Essay on Marxian Economics famously concentrated on Karl Marx as an economist, helping revive the debate on this aspect of his legacy.

During the Second World War, Joan Robinson worked on a few different Committees for the wartime national government. During this time, she visited the Soviet Union as well as China. She developed an interest in underdeveloped and developing nations and contributed a lot that is now understood in this section of economics.

In 1949, she was invited by Ragnar Frisch to become the vice president of the Econometric Society but declined, saying she couldn't be part of the editorial committee of a journal she couldn't read.

In 1956, Joan Robinson published her magnum opus, The Accumulation of Capital, which extended Keynesianism into the long-run. Six years later, she published another book about growth theory, which talked about concepts of "Golden Age" growth paths. Afterwards, she developed the Cambridge growth theory with Nicholas Kaldor. During the 1960s, she was a major participant in the Cambridge capital controversy alongside Piero Sraffa.

Close to the end of her life she studied and concentrated on methodological problems in economics and tried to recover the original message of Keynes' General Theory. Between 1962 and 1980 she wrote many economics books for the general public. Robinson suggested developing an alternative to the revival of classical economics.

At least two students who studied under her have won the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences: Amartya Sen and Joseph Stiglitz.

Also, Robinson made several trips to China, reporting her observations and analyses in China: An Economic Perspective (1958), The Cultural Revolution in China (1969), and Economic Management in China (1975; 3rd ed, 1976), in which she praised the Cultural Revolution. She also stated in reference to divided Korea that "[o]bviously, sooner or later the country must be reunited by absorbing the South into socialism." These statements caused significant damage to her reputation, and possibly cost her the Nobel Prize for Economics. During her last decade, she became more and more pessimistic about the possibilities of reforming economic theory, as expressed, for example, in her essay "Spring Cleaning".

Quite an intellectual trip, I must say.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 08:32:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...is a dangerous thing:

All PDF. Harcourt appears to be the author of a major book on Post-Keynesian economics: The Structure of Post-Keynesian Economics: The Core Contributions of the Pioneers in which Joan Robinson features majorly.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 08:46:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And still, people complain over Friedman advising Pinochet on economic issues, all the time.

Friedman was on the record as saying that he preferred a "free market"(sic) dictatorship over democratic socialism.

This bears pointing out, repeatedly, because there is this persistent mythology that right-wingers are pro-democracy.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 06:18:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Right-wingers are pro-Democracy™ - which has the same relationship to real democracy that Rupert Murdoch has to quality journalism.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 07:33:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
How ducky wonderful the compares:

United States GDP per capita:  $48,147

Nasty socialist scumbags from the Frozen North:

Nordic countries GDP per capita: $62,959

My case.

It rests.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 at 07:46:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Think that's household GDP, not per capita.

Unless both regions are doing a helluva lot better than I thought. :)

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2012 at 05:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you implying the economic systems of the Nordic countries have more in common with North Korea than with the US?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Mar 20th, 2012 at 08:11:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That would be the Republican view.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 20th, 2012 at 08:12:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As your signature mentions, the Republican story is not always the same as the truth.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Mar 20th, 2012 at 08:37:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Stockholm Syndrome Pt. 1 - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 04/21/09 - Video Clip | Comedy Central
The Stockholm Syndrome Pt. 1 Wyatt Cenac travels to Sweden to wake up their hauntingly thin citizens from their socialist nightmare.


Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Tue Mar 20th, 2012 at 08:37:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sweden is often compared to Germany (high CA surplus, hi-tech manufacturing and so on), but one interesting difference is that while German real wages have stagnated for the last decade, Swedish real wages have increased by 20% during the same period.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Tue Mar 20th, 2012 at 10:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
According to CIA facts 2011, GDP average per cap, USA = 48.000 bucks, Scandinavia + Finland = 42.000.

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 20th, 2012 at 08:33:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But of course by the time you throw in free education, free healthcare and affordable, practical public transportation, we Nordics are way ahead.

As usual, GDP doesn't tell us that much.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue Mar 20th, 2012 at 08:36:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
eventually you will reach full employment.
If you kill enough people, eventually the remainder will be employed
I'm not arguing this is the good way to do things, I'm just saying that eventually that's what will happen
Well, I am arguing the EU is acting as a force of evil, and in large part it is because the institutions are designed to act this way. It would take courageous civil servants and politicians to not do what they-re doing, since they could plausibly be accused of breaking the letter of the EU treaties and regulations.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:00:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not arguing from a moral point of view here. If I did, well, sure, I agree that the ECB is acting very badly. And stupidly.

But that does not change the argument about what would eventually happen, as it is not a normative argument. And furthermore, you know just as well as I do that equilibrium would not be achieved by the unemployed starving to death.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:04:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
equilibrium would not be achieved by the unemployed starving to death

You're right: they are, and it isn't.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sooner or later the resistance to nominal wage cuts will fade (when the pain gets intense enough), salaries will fall, and you'll see an export-led resurgence.

No, you will see another wave of plant closures as the deflationary impact of protectionist wage dumping hits the balance sheets of firms that in any properly managed macroeconomy would be fundamentally sound.

And then you will see a trade war, not totally unlike the good, old-fashioned sort with import duties and customs barriers. Except instead of competing to see who can raise import duties higher before their domestic economy starts breaking for lack of raw materials, we'll be seeing who can raise unemployment higher before their democracy breaks from paramilitary organisations being the only viable career prospect for anybody born after 1990.

And unlike the counterfactual presented of the in the diary body, this is a repeatedly observed and well described phenomenon.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:48:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
VoxEU: The Central Bank as the Market Maker of last Resort: From lender of last resort to market maker of last resort (13 August 2007)
When banks were the main providers of credit, the financial stability mandate of central banks could be summarised as their lender of last resort function: in times of crisis, lend freely, at a penalty rate and against collateral that would be good in normal times but may be impaired in times of crisis.1 The counterparties of the central bank in these lender of last resort operations were commercial banks (shorthand for deposit-taking institutions whose main liabilities were deposits withdrawable on demand and subject to a sequential service (first-come, first served) constraint. Their main assets were illiquid loans. This financial structure invited bank runs when confidence in the banks was undermined, for whatever reason. In the days when banks were the dominant intermediaries, a credit crunch or liquidity squeeze manifested itself in the inability of banks to borrow; a lender of last resort that targeted banks was the right vehicle for dealing with liquidity crises and credit squeezes in that set-up.

These days are gone in the globally integrated modern financial systems characterising all advanced industrial countries and an increasing number of emerging markets.

Today, external finance to non-financial corporations and to financial institutions is increasingly provided not through banks but through the issuance of tradable financial instruments directly to the financial markets or indirectly to the financial markets through banks and other financial institutions whose assets are, thanks to securitisation and similar techniques, liquid in normal times.  Now that financial markets (and non-bank financial institutions) have increasingly taken over the function of providing credit and all forms of finance to deficit spending units, a credit crunch or liquidity crunch manifests itself in a different way from the world described by Walter Bagehot's lender of last resort (see Walter Bagehot (1873), Lombard Street: A Description of the Money Market).

Today, a credit crunch or liquidity squeeze manifests itself as disorderly financial markets. Because of pervasive Knightian uncertainty (risk that is perceived as immeasurable and not possible to calculate or quantify), fear and in the limit, panic, little or no trade occurs in certain classes of financial instruments (say subprime mortgage-backed `collateralised debt obligations' CDOs) because there is no market maker with both the knowledge to price these financial instruments and the deep pockets to credibly post buying and selling prices. The precise way in which such micro-market failure (the failure to match willing buyers and sellers at prices acceptable to both) occurs differs for exchange-traded instruments and over-the-counter financial instruments (instruments for which bilateral bargaining over a deal is the normal exchange mechanism), but the solution is the same: the central bank has to become the market maker of last resort.

This was like 3 weeks into the subprime crisis. 5 years into it, the ECB remains at war with central banking.

And, yes, we have 'a run' in the sense that financial intermediation remains broken which, were it not for the globally integrated modern financial systems. 'A run' is a liquidity squeeze, and such things have been known (and continue) to afflict everything from nonfinancial firms to entire national economies during this crisis.

There are three stories about the euro crisis: the Republican story, the German story, and the truth. -- Paul Krugman

by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:13:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If generalised hysteria is an essential component of bank runs, then de-pegging - or the threat of de-pegging - does not necessarily cause bank runs.

If you want to use that definition of "bank run" (which we can do, sure), then my response to Louis' scaremongering is not to say "bank run already happening" - it is to say "Greece has already proven that it can manage a total collapse of its depository banking system without bank runs and other hysterics."

The operative point is the same: It is perfectly possible, with a minimum of planning, to wipe out savers and creditors wholesale without hysterics on the part of anybody outside the salmon-coloured press, and without a breakdown of the social order.

It is not similarly possible to wipe 20-30 per cent of the employable workforce off the face of the economy without a breakdown of the social order. At least inasmuch as one's definition of "social order" includes some semblance of parliamentary democracy and responsible government.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 08:37:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well who are we to doubt the German economic establishment? They clearly know what they are tliking about as evidenced by Germany's success. Like in 2005 when they told us that Germany would enter a long period of stagnation:

Kolumne: Thomas Fricke - Huch, wir sind Wirtschaftswunder | FTD.de Column: Thomas Fricke - Oops, we are economic miracle | FTD.de
Die Beschäftigung werde "in den kommenden Jahren bestenfalls stagnieren", orakelte im November 2005 Jörg Krämer, damals Chefökonom der HVB, heute bei der Commerzbank - weil Angela Merkels Große Koalition, die damals gerade angetreten war, "durchgreifende Arbeitsmarktreformen nicht einmal erwogen" habe. Jetzt werde der "Fluch der unterlassenen Reformen" über uns kommen, versprach Krämer. Ähnlich klang's bei Rürups Sachverständigen: Die Haushaltslage sei "desolat", das geringe Wachstumspotenzial behindere "eine durchgreifende Erholung".The employment level would "stagnate in the coming years, at best," Jörg Krämer, then chief economist of the HVB , now at Commerzbank prophetised in November 2005 - because Angela Merkel's grand coalition government, which then had just assumed office, had "not even considered far-reaching labor market reforms." Now the "curse of of the forsaken reforms" will come upon us, promised Krämers. Similar Rürups Sachverständigenrat: The budget situation was "desperate" low growth potential prevents a "sustained recovery".
by generic on Sat Mar 17th, 2012 at 07:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Display:

Occasional Series