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Given the sky-high blind arrogance of so many Tories, it is a miralce that the party still manages to deceive so many non-upper-class people into voting for them.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 15th, 2012 at 11:04:22 AM EST
Yes, but it's the same trick the repugs perform in the US.

Don't get it, but whatever it is, it obviously works

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Sun Jul 15th, 2012 at 11:07:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But IMO the repugs are more self-conscious and pragmatic about demagoguery than most Tories from local councillor upwards.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sun Jul 15th, 2012 at 11:19:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it's just that the billionaires who run the Rethuglican Party are better coordinated and have better media control than their Tory equivalents.
by rifek on Sat Jul 21st, 2012 at 09:19:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When the left/liberals go against the silent majority on social/cultural issues, it pushes the working classes into voting for the right and against their own economic interests. Why does this happen? Because the working classes of the West have become so wealthy since the war ended, that they now consider economic issues secondary to social and cultural ones.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Wed Jul 18th, 2012 at 04:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, let's impoverish everyone else and have the socially backwards paradise the working classes long for?

If you are not convinced, try it on someone who has not been entirely debauched by economics. — Piero Sraffa
by Migeru (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2012 at 04:43:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't see how you reach that conclusion?

My argument is that as long as you don't overstretch on social progressivism, you will keep economic progressivism. Overstretch and you might well lose both.


Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Jul 18th, 2012 at 04:49:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well - we do rather seem to have completely lost social progressivism already, don't we?

Depending on what you mean by 'economic progressivism' we may well have lost that too.

But here is a thing - social progressivism isn't particularly about cash. It's about having a vision for the future.

Economic progressivism has no vision at all. It's about the next quarter, or occasionally about the next year.

If you limit your politics to economics, you have a car with an overheated engine, no brakes, and no steering wheel.

Perhaps this isn't an entirely good thing.

I'd suggest that the tragedy of Thatcher, Sarkozy, Merkel, Cameron, Blair and the rest, isn't just that they're clearly lying little shits and unpleasant people.

It's that they have no vision beyond strictly limited self-interest. They have no ability to plan for a more creative and enjoyable future.

Getting rid of the banks isn't going to be nearly enough. We need to find people with passion, imagination and intellect and put them in charge of things - not just to make things happen, but to make it possible for better things to happen.

At a guess we're not going to find those people among the usual suspects.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2012 at 06:00:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
ThatBritGuy:
At a guess we're not going to find those people among the usual suspects.

hardey ha..

if those 'unpleasant little shits' would move out of the middle of the road, we would be able to get somewhere better.

they're fifth columnists who open the town gates to the robbers without.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2012 at 06:34:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The middle of the road is the best place to be hit by a bus or a hit-and-run driver.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Jul 18th, 2012 at 09:24:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed. Squatting in the middle of their own side is understandable, straddling the centre line facing each other brings total stasis.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Fri Jul 20th, 2012 at 08:23:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes? Bill Clinton is quite the charmer, as far as we know. That doesn't change anything about his New Democrats policies.
by IM on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 04:05:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You are assuming facts not in evidence. a) a good part of the working class doesn't think it is wealthy If they don't seem to care about economic issues it is because they have resigned. And b) the divide in so called social issues is a young/old divide. Not a class divide.

 While I don't have proof at my fingertips either, at least I do have an example: the pirates in Germany get a very considerable share of working-class votes. And diffuse as they are, social conservatives they are not.

by IM on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 04:03:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suspect this whole "the working class is social conservative" spiel is mostly based on party leaders deciding that the working class wants what they are ready to give them. Uneasy about job security and cuts in the healthcare system? Well how about we restrict immigration?
by generic on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 06:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In the UK the working class are famously racist. Labour was never entirely immune to this.

Unfortunately they don't get that immigration and job theft are always allowed because they lower wages.

So it's trivially easy for demagogues to encourage immigration for business, then turn it into a political issue at election time.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 07:39:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Worse here in the US, which is why we have a significant part of the electorate riled up over a non-white president.
by rifek on Sat Jul 21st, 2012 at 09:22:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I recomend Krugmans The Conscience of a Liberal, where he discusses the Civil rights issue from this perspective. Or just talk to some working class people. My impression is that social radicalism, or whatever you would like to call it, is very much concentrated to the upper middle class: journalists, teachers, doctors, academics and so on.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Jul 19th, 2012 at 10:37:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
When the left/liberals go against the silent majority on social/cultural issues, it pushes the working classes into voting for the right and against their own economic interests. Why does this happen? Because the working classes of the West have become so wealthy since the war ended, that they now consider economic issues secondary to social and cultural ones.

Insofar as cause is generally recognized to precede consequence, this story is untenable in the face of the historical experience of Western Europe. Union busting came first, the ugly parties followed in its wake like stink on a dogshit.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jul 22nd, 2012 at 10:09:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure how things stand in Denmark, but around here unions are not in the least busted.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Sun Jul 22nd, 2012 at 12:15:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The gutting of their ability to prevent strikebreaking and maintain closed shops is already complete. The rise of part-time, temporary, "flexible" work has destroyed the ability to organize several whole sectors.

But more importantly, with the shift from full-employment policies to permanent-unemployment policies, the sack regained its power to compel obedience, and workers are not yet reduced to the sort of devil-may-care desperation required to effectively organize in that sort of environment. Unless current policies are reversed, they will be. But that will be then, and this is now.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Jul 23rd, 2012 at 03:57:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have found Moral Foundations Theory interesting. Test here.

Basically 'the left' go to 'Care/harm' and set up camp, while conservatives draw on 'Loyalty/betrayal', 'Authority/subversion', 'Sanctity/degradation'.

With Britain being rigidly class-based, few 'poor' people believe in what Pratchett referred to as 'Vote yourself rich. However there is plenty of energy to invest in your assorted granfalloons.

-----
sapere aude

by Number 6 on Tue Jul 24th, 2012 at 10:26:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting.

Having just done the Moral Foundations Questionnaire (don't seem to be able to include the picture of the result) I note that at least at that one conservatives are more even then liberals in that they care about the things liberals care about (harm/care, fairness/reciprocity (including issues of rights)) almost as much as they care about the conservative issues (ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect, and purity/sanctity) while liberals care much more about care&fairness then loyalty&authority and even less about purity. Not sure if this is an effect of calibration of the scale.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue Jul 24th, 2012 at 12:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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