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from the comments:

7 Story Lines to Watch in the Euro Crisis This Fall - NYTimes.com

I don't agree in the expression "Euro crisis". To me it seems to be a bank crisis, a crisis of Greece itself (ongoing since 1820) and an additional real estate bubble in Spain. Greece need a complete restructuring of administration, infrastucture and the corrumpted political system. That will not work without political pressure on those politicians who are responsible for the current status assisted by bankers who made their benefits with high interest rates in Greece government bonds trusting in the responsibility of the stronger Euro nations. All payments from ECB and IMF are directed to the creditor banks. That 's helpfull for the banks only but not for the Greece economy. They do need programs to bring up economy after doing their homework.
On the other hand there is of course a misrelation between the spendings of national households and collateral effects on the value of the common currency. That need a fix by regulations, observations and a central control council in absence of a common democratic political body. Hopefully leading into a political integration of Europe. All in all this seems to me rather a great chance than a desaster.
Grant Greece another decade to correct the sins of more than a century. I think it's worth to help them.

    • JoanneN
    • Europe
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    You're right, it would take a decade. But it would take more than time: people need to have a sense of justice restored.

    The major failure of the EU has been its inability to bring about institutional change in Member States. Greek citizens have seen no real structural change in 30 years. The main improvement was in consumption, which was called 'development', but of course is anything but. Its politicians have carried on with the same old destructive clientilist party politics, except with a a lot more European tax-payer money to throw around.

    As a result, the flaws of Greek democracy have become even more entrenched. Now the same politicians are being asked to implement in a couple of years what they failed to do in the preceding 30. Meanwhile, citizens are asked to drastically reduce their standard of living, pay a lot more taxes (VAT has reached 24%, but cannot make up for the lower tax collection due to recession), and face worsening schools and hospitals - all without anyone in the political scene being called to account. How can this work?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty
by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 at 04:11:47 PM EST
I don't understand why people are going back over 100 years on Greek history.

Or 30 years.

Makes no sense.

30 years ago, Greece had a skeletal gov't and absolutely no gov't services. No gov't workers practically. It was a banana republic, and acted like one. 10 years prior to that they were a fascist regime. 15 years before that they were an American proxy. 5 years before that they were in civil war. 5 years before that they were occupied by a fascist army. 5 years before that they were governed by fascists. 10 years before that there was a national schism between the King and a rump new Greece in the north that had joined the country after WW1.

How far do we really have to go back to talk about Greeks sins, really?

Do Americans talk about Boss Tweed still?

Should we?

by Upstate NY on Mon Sep 3rd, 2012 at 10:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i don't think the tone is prosecutorial, but maybe i would if i were greek, dunno.

are the facts true or not, is what's interesting.

it's not like any counties in europe have exemplary histories!

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Sep 4th, 2012 at 04:11:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Until Andreas Papandreou, Greece had no gov't services to speak of, at all. That was 30 years ago. So, factually, the article is untrue. But even with Papandreou, the increase in gov't workers from incredibly low levels to levels still smaller not only than the European average but smaller than the USA's (by %) was only a sop for the left since the country's economy was still first and foremost a playground for oligarchs.

Greece went awry since the introduction of the euro.

by Upstate NY on Tue Sep 4th, 2012 at 09:54:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
American memory doesn't reach that far back.  As the old saw goes, "In Europe, 100 miles is a long way.  In the US, 100 years is a long time."
by rifek on Tue Sep 4th, 2012 at 03:28:59 PM EST
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With the fast trains in Europe, and the continuing US blockade on Cuba for something or other than happened before most of us were born, I wonder whether it's time to revise this?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Sep 4th, 2012 at 03:52:05 PM EST
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The Cuban Revolution was 1912? Here I thought that was the Mexican one.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Wed Sep 5th, 2012 at 12:45:57 AM EST
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