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Well, if Artus is right, the benefit that has been generally postulated on this site (exchange-rate depression helping German exports) is not that important, since their exports exhibit a great degree of price inflexibility (if that's the term). So where, indeed, is the overwhelming benefit of the Euro for the Germans?

It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II
by eurogreen on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 03:31:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, several things.

There is some inflexibility -although I would be prudent before stating that it is long-run inflexible. China may decide at some point that it will build some machines themselves. Or stop buying so many -then Germany would need the peripheral countries again.
But if the exchange rate was to double -and it may well be the order of magnitude, considering what the imbalances are- I'm not so sure that even short-run inflexibility would be so clear.

Now, imagine that this problem is not too big anyway. There remains another one: since Germany is determined to have a massive surplus, it needs to invest its savings abroad. Will it be all that happy to be facing a yearly depreciation of around 6-8% for the foreseeable future? After all, level of exports is not the obvious main target of a properly run economy. It may be that with its own currency, Germany's exports remain strong (although unlikely that they will be so strong, just look at when and how the trade surplus did open). But they would not be better off -certainly, savers would not be. And they are the ones that matter, as we well know.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 04:53:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, Germany would be better off, because exports are costs and imports are benefits. Germany would get more benefits for its costs.

Would suck to be a rentier in that economy, but fuck the rentiers.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 01:42:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That would suggest that leaving the Euro would be much better for German workers than for large German investors. Given that lowering wages has been a decades long goal of German conservatives, such a development  would give those running policy in Germany a significant incentive to compromise to maintain the Euro, were their membership in the EZ to be threatened.

But it doesn't answer the question of what would cause Germany to want to leave the Euro.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 02:04:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I do realise that costs would be reduced.

Still, I strongly doubt that a doubling of the currency would be harmless for the export, so to maintain their sacrosanct trade surplus they would have to gut their consumptions outright.

And the whole point of having a trade surplus is to invest it. So that would make very little sense if the exchange rates eat it up.

The whole German model becomes moot without someone to pay for their mercantilist policies.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 02:27:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And the whole point of having a trade surplus is to invest it. So that would make very little sense if the exchange rates eat it up.

This again is straight out of Hobson's Imperialism. For the British investor class in the second half of the 19th Century excess profits from British factories were invested in India, which Britain controlled directly. For Germany the Eurozone, as currently constituted, provided the same benefits and serves the same purpose. And, so far, the Troika has been a lot cheaper for Germany than all the colonial regiments Britain used to maintain in India.

I'll bet the Irish, Portuguese, Greeks, Italians and Spaniards never thought they were hiring an imperial master when they joined the Euro-zone, not to mention France. Maybe no one noticed because they did not have to learn German.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 02:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"I'll bet the Irish, Portuguese, Greeks, Italians and Spaniards never thought they were hiring an imperial master when they joined the Euro-zone, not to mention France. Maybe no one noticed because they did not have to learn German. "

Germany did not have a trade surplus then.

But indeed, had the Schröder policies been spelt out clearly ahead of the integration, it's unlikely that it would have gathered much support in Europe. The point was felt to be strengthening the European model (of decent social protection, for a start), not killing it, which is the apparent target at the moment.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 03:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cyrille: "There remains another one: since Germany is determined to have a massive surplus, it needs to invest its savings abroad. Will it be all that happy to be facing a yearly depreciation of around 6-8% for the foreseeable future?"

That would certainly be a problem for existing investments in Euro-zone countries were Germany to leave the Euro-zone. But most of the depreciation would likely occur immediately, rendering EZ countries X-Germany attractive targets for new investment. And, while German investors may take an immediate hit on the value of its foreign assets, should  not  assets become more competitive and, thus, their net present value should increase to offset the immediate loss due to currency revaluation?  

I agree that, medium to long term, there are probably hard limits as to how high a new Deutchmark could go relative to other countries without Germany becoming uncompetitive in its core products. Although a lot of those losses could well be to relocated subsidiaries of German parents. But would that not start bringing the downside of globalization home to Germany and result in a hollowing out of German Industry?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 02:30:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, either Germany keeps its surplus and the appreciation will continue, or it does not and it does not.

Arguing that DM appreciation would not affect the surplus, or indeed increase it, implies that the appreciation would continue absent a majorly active central bank policy to manipulate the exchange rate.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 03:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, it seems true that a country can usually defend the upper bound of an exchange rate by just issuing new currency to buy foreign currency, for instance. Is that not what the Swiss Central Bank has been doing? It seems like there ought to be some negative consequences and chief amongst them would be the possibility of domestic inflation. If I have got that right that would be a serious problem for many Germans - allegedly their biggest nightmare. It would indeed be ironic.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 07:18:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's looking increasingly likely that inflation is a fiscal, not a monetary phenomenon, as Chris Cook has been pointing out for a long time.

Also, central bank reserves don't circulate, so I'm not convinced "printing money" to accumulate foreign reserves to depress your exchange rate will "lead to inflation". If anything, it is an attempt to arrest deflation (explicitly in the case of Switzerland). But, if by depressing your currency you sustain your country's current account surplus (and Switzerland's is over 10% of GDP) then you get deflation anyway because a current account surplus is a drain on your money base.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 02:15:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"Also, central bank reserves don't circulate, so I'm not convinced "printing money" to accumulate foreign reserves to depress your exchange rate will "lead to inflation"."

I think you've got this backwards: the strategy would lead to increased reserve in foreign currency, but with more of the domestic currency on the open markets.
So, provided that those who exchange currency for DM are interested in spending them, it could lead to inflation/reduced deflation.

Especially if the quantities are huge.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 02:24:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But if those foreigners were massively buying your domestic assets you wouldn't have a current account surplus.

Just look at Switzerland's last two years...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 03:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's an entirely different argument from lack of circulation of central bank reserves.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 05:16:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe it's a different argument but it all boils down to the same thing: expanding the central bank's balance sheet is not inflationary.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 05:28:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But if those foreigners were massively buying your domestic assets you wouldn't have a current account surplus.

It might be possible for Germany to create a 'Euro- Deutschmark' funding market, analogous to the London Euro-dollar funding market, but such a market might be prone to more volatility and gaming as it would be a much smaller market. And then BuBa would acquire the same obligation of lender of last resort wrt Euro-Deutschmarks as the Fed has towards Eurodollars and Germans could have a major hissy over that. And the gaming possibilities could make the 'mark' the subject of a double entendre joke amongst FX traders.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 10:32:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The Fed has no LOLR function with respect to Eurodollars, that's why Eurodollar deposits pay higher yields than dollar deposits...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 12:06:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
None-the-less the Fed did support the Euro-dollar in 2008 and since by swaps with foreign central banks and the ECB as well as by being LOLR for the US arms of banks in London that needed dollar funding - indirect support but very real support. This came out very clearly in Perry Mehrling's Money and Banking course which I am just finishing.

The basic fact is that only the central bank for a given currency can perform LOLR functions for holders of debt denominated in that currency. It is important that this be done not so much for the sake of the bank but for the sake of the various derivative dealers that might be in departments of that bank.

The basic assumption of the assets being financed is:

Risk-less Asset = Risky Asset + Risk Insurance.
or
Risk-less Asset = Risky Asset + CDS + IRS + FXS

But risk insurance must be priced. If the derivative dealers in CDSs, IRSs and FX swaps are not supported in a crisis then they will not make markets. If they do not make markets risk insurance can no longer be priced and the risky assets get liquidated in a very disorderly and damaging fashion.

So it is the job of the Central Banks to provide liquidity as required until the panic is controlled. They effectively become dealers of last resort and have to begin to issue CDSs, IRSs and FXSs themselves and carry these instruments on their balance sheets. It is to be hoped that, seeing that they HAVE to perform such functions that they jointly agree to regulations that will make such an eventuality less likely. But that is very much a work in progress, if that is not too generous a term. Have a helping of Hopium.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 01:07:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Adding, of course, that it is in the futures market that a lot of the risk arbitrage is performed, so that they also need support in crisis.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 03:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru:
It's looking increasingly likely that inflation is a fiscal, not a monetary phenomenon, as Chris Cook has been pointing out for a long time.

Well, to all but die-hard austerians, it is becoming increasingly obvious that deflation is a fiscal phenomenon.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Dec 1st, 2013 at 08:02:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, immediate negative effect necessarily, but it would be active exchange rate management to stop appreciation, which is not what we expect to go down well with the German psyche.

Anyway, if all countries start doing that sort of thing, nothing stops the periphery (and France) countries to do the same... but with a lower exchange rate! Then we'll get central banks printing and printing, ad libitum, with no limit.
Then, once the periphery central banks have accumulated enough to essentially purchase Germany, a nice bout of inflation could ensue. Of course, the game would stop long before that.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Fri Nov 29th, 2013 at 02:22:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Anyway, if all countries start doing that sort of thing, nothing stops the periphery (and France) countries to do the same... but with a lower exchange rate! Then we'll get central banks printing and printing, ad libitum, with no limit.

In principle, yes. In practice, if two central banks commit to doing this at the same time, then they will fix the exchange rate instead.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Nov 30th, 2013 at 08:48:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's a fairly commonly-stated German opinion that it doesn't matter if the euro rises, Germany will still be an export champion (one economist or whatever said that a euro at 1.45 USD would not be a problem). And that view is supported by Artus's price elasticity numbers, since German exports are at 0.3, very inelastic (meaning they don't have to reduce their prices to clinch deals).

However, the ROEZ as a whole tends to moderate the position of the euro wrt other major currencies. The view often stated here is that, if Germany still had the DM, it would be considerably stronger than the euro. In fact, it would strengthen as a function of German export volumes. That would crimp Germany's style. So it is reasonable to think that Germany gets an advantage from the euro.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Nov 28th, 2013 at 05:41:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd really question the price-elasticity numbers because there doesn't seem to be enough comparative data to generate them accurately.

As such, a lot of the talk about Germany's ability to remain an export champion at higher exchange rates is largely either:

  • naive extrapolation from a simpler time (W. Germany)

  • macho myth making rooted in a belief that price doesn't matter if quality is high enough. That's true for some sectors and segments of other sectors, but when you add all that up, it's a smaller market than people think.

  • ignorance of the new world of global trade. The key point here is that to remain competitive companies (e.g. Mercedes Benz) have developed factories in other parts of the world (e.g. USA, China) and the profits from those factories may stay constant, but their value on the company balance sheet changes if the exchange rate moves up. Nobody I know of has written about this regarding Germany, but there are some commentaries on Japan (particularly Sony) that highlight how this causes problems.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sun Dec 1st, 2013 at 05:46:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's true the elasticity figures are Natixis' own calculations, based on what is not specified.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Dec 1st, 2013 at 06:01:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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