Greece: Of paupers and taxes | 143 comments (143 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 6)

Another interesting aspect of this is that austerity is not only reinforcing the worst behaviors that harm the country (such as tax evasion, destruction of community and commonality) but it is seen as simply yet another event that prevents Greece from ever escaping the trap of history.

We're 5 or 6 years into this debacle, and the signs point downward still. When you realize that Greece has these crises every 20 years, you then can't ever hope to build a functioning system that lasts. Balkan Wars, Asia Minor catastrophe, huge influx of refugees, Smyrna, the National Schism, Dictatorship in the 30s, Italian invasion and German occupation, Civil War, proxy gov't by CIA, the junta and the Colonels, now this, an economic meltdown that will take another 20 years to recover from IF they are lucky, but by then, concepts of government for the people will be so run down and tattered that they will simply anticipate the next historical crisis.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 12:08:31 PM EST

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 6)

Unless of course the phoenix rises from the ashes, and Greeks are quite taken by their newfound sustainable economy. while the chances for such a restructuring may be small, no one an predict what comes from the current horror.

Solar/wind marshall plan, for starters. (i know that's a stretch, but...)

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 03:28:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 5)

We need dreams to stay sane, and some might even come true.

by Katrin on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 03:36:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 4)

It's a fantasy. People in Germany seem to ascribe cultural or moral attributes to the people that cause this problem without once understanding the circumstances. Crises reinforce bad behaviors. The answer to the national schism was repression. The answer to German occupation was a political war. The answer to starvation was food imports in exchange for a military build-up and vassal-dom which evolved into the curtailment of civil rights and totalitarianism. The answer to fascism was then a ban on political prisoners which fostered corruption. Round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows.

In the interwar period, Germans behaved much the same as Greeks, proving once again that circumstances drive behavior.

Despite what people think, the current crisis makes Greek tax-dodging not only logical, but an absolute requirement.

by Upstate NY on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 04:07:58 PM EST
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Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

You're supposed to label snark

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 04:22:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 2)

I don't underestimate the power of modern people uprising, especially where least expected. The desire for a sustainable world is strong in many.

Just because the surface is clouded with Schock Doctrine and renewed fascism, doesn't mean there isn't a strong minority of those with vision.

I didn't write that as snark. In fact, i began the post because I wondered how many starved or went bankrupt or homeless in the hours we got sidetracked on Gold Bugs and Bretton Woods, and I wanted to recall that this is truly an uncivilized horror.

Then it occurred to me that the game isn't over, we haven't lost yet.

who knows what those billion women who danced against rape and gender violence three days ago might attempt next time?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 04:34:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 3)

And in Greece, circumstances might just force a return the resources already present there.

Young people aren't going to stand this shit much longer. Sure, some will be seduced by Golden Dawn, but more have already tasted a more satisfying siren call.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 04:37:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 3)

The misery and death that has already occurred can never be balanced out, especially when we ask "why" and there is no rational answer to be had.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 05:18:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

very true, though i think there is a rational answer: Shock Doctrine.

But that doesn't mean we should stop trying to ground vision into reality.

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 05:29:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

"Shock doctrine" doesn't do it for me. Germany and Greece are supposed to be on the same team. And Greece is a tiny little country; too small to be raided.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 05:38:41 PM EST
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Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

supposed to being the operative word.

The European Dream was fine while it lasted.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 05:44:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 9)

But it is part of a larger process.

Profits were increased in Germany durng the 90ies and 00ies by decreasing relative salaries through worse conditions for unemployed, this set both the stage for the persistent current account surplus and the moral play where the Germans (but not the owners) has already tightened their belts and it is time for the Greeks to do the same.

Pillaging Greece and crushing their wages will then create a pool of really cheap workers for the core (see the Amazon stories), which in turn will drive down wages there. Though not having passed yet, it is also obvious that conservative forces wants the EU to allow companies to set contracts according to the law of the land of their HQ, rather then the law of the land where the work is done. So once Greece is sufficiently crushed, companies can place a HQ there and employ cleaners in the core for Greek wages and with Greek laws (dictated by Troika). Then comes another round of cuts in the core to increase competetivness. And anger is diverted at the feckless southerners that are taking the jobs.

Run and run it goes, when it ends nobody knows.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 03:45:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 1)

Your take on this is frightening.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 03:58:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

And if the euro soon breaks up, what's the good to Germany?

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 04:00:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 7)

If the euro breaks up, the efforts to keep wages down would need to return to Germany. To Germany at large it might be good as the chance for political resistance increases with visible costs, but to the political and economical elite it would be bad in particular as they loose the newly acquired powers of the ECB. So the rational thing for said elite would be to try to avoid a break-up while promoting their policies. Practically this would consist of carrots and sticks being applied in relation to election that could end with a state breaking away. Threathen a world of hurt if the wrong party wins and give support to the right parties in the form of promises, bit of better terms before the elections and if necessary direct funds to the party coffers of the right parties.

There is of course the hope that they are sufficiently blinded by their ideology to act irrational. But when your best hope is that the powers that be are nuts, it is not good.

The world is a frightening place, I just try to make sense of it. Though it grants no control, the effort gives a sense of comfort.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 04:46:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

seems naive at this point to believe elite german banksters-behaving-badly care a fig for a. the euro (offshore stashes)
b. the people of europe
c. the people of germany

any evidence to support an antithesis?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 05:19:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 2)

A breakup of the euro has to hurt Germany since the currencies of the countries in its major market will be devalued against the Deutschmark hurting Germany's exports and increasing its imports; something that Germany has been avoiding.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 05:44:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

yes it will hurt germany's people, but by then their work will be done, and she will be the most pwerful pauper.

see why they aren't allowed nukes?

/snark

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 01:52:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 1)

After two days of having discussed the "why" of what's happening I can't find any answer that satisfies me. My mind is boggling.
Frankly it sounds as if we're in an insane assylum.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!

by LEP on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 02:18:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 5)

Maybe this will help:

Psychosis:

Psychosis is a loss of contact with reality that usually includes:
* False beliefs about what is taking place or who one is (delusions)
* Seeing or hearing things that aren't there (hallucinations)

For me a whole bunch of stuff became clear when I stopped assuming rationality and demanded proof.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 03:06:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

There is no such thing as a country too small to be raided.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Feb 18th, 2013 at 05:36:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 2)

Solar/wind marshall plan, for starters. (i know that's a stretch, but...)

I've argued before that that will likely just mean rent extraction by Siemens, which will install the solar and wind, use Greek sun and wind for free, and charge the Greeks for the use of the resulting electricity. Or, even better, just export the power and send the profit back home.

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 05:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

Migeru:

I've argued before that that will likely just mean rent extraction by Siemens

heh, you really are on to them...

probably already working out the spin to sell it as logical.

syriza must just be waiting for the votes to roll in next election...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 06:31:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 4)

syriza must just be waiting for the votes to roll in next election...

That's assuming there is a next election.

The dislike of government spending policy as such is overcome under fascism by the fact that the state machinery is under the direct control of a partnership of big business with fascism. The necessity for the myth of 'sound finance', which served to prevent the government from offsetting a confidence crisis by spending, is removed. In a democracy, one does not know what the next government will be like. Under fascism there is no next government.

(Political Aspects of Full Employment by Michal Kalecki)

I distribute. You re-distribute. He gives your hard-earned money to lazy scroungers. -- JakeS

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 09:09:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (4.00 / 8)

Right now they're using the Media and TV against SYRIZA accusing it of caving in and becoming more systemic, less radical and of flirting with terrorists, being irresponsible, violent and for lawlessness at the same time. It works, sort of, SYRIZA is stuck around its last electoral result and ND has fallen by "only" ~3-4% while the socialists are at around half of what they had last June and DIMAR a bit down. The nazis are at >10%, it seems that they have a hard percentage roof of at most 15%, but for the time being SYRIZA seems to have a similar roof at 30-32%. Making sure that popular dissatisfaction leads people to vote Nazi rather than turn left is a major subtheme of media manipulation - thus the toleration of Nazis and lack of horror stories about them despite the daily incidents that they're involved in...

Mind you things are going to hell really fast as social tensions are mounting again - SYRIZA is trying to make inroads where it has been weakest: rural populations and senior citizens. But these guys are perfectly capable of starting a civil war rather than allow outsiders to gain power: its not only their increasingly quasi-criminal ship-owning backers and bankers... there are skeletons in the former two-party closet enough to keep courts busy for a decade...

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake

by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 09:36:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

Siemens, bankers and shipowners paying some euros a day on the top of unemployment benefit paid by Greece to the people who build the plants. EU seems to be very good at solving the most pressing problem at the time but much worse at doing it in a fair way. Because unemployment is replacing bank and sovereing solvency as the main problem I would bet that something will done to "solve" it as previous problems have been "solved".

by Jute on Tue Feb 19th, 2013 at 08:21:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Greece: Of paupers and taxes (none / 0)

Crazy Horse:

Solar/wind marshall plan, for starters. (i know that's a stretch, but...)

ding fucking ding!!! hello?

it's not a stretch physically, it's the vested interests against it that are holding it back.... and the fact the greeks aren't articulate enough to demand it.

that it's a stretch is entirely their frame, i totally reject it as the BS it is
.

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Feb 17th, 2013 at 06:21:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Greece: Of paupers and taxes | 143 comments (143 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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