The European Tribune is a forum for thoughtful dialogue of European and international issues. You are invited to post comments and your own articles.
Please REGISTER to post.
I'm no fan of Eurocentric history, but this really sounds like the author was trying to cash in on the recent popularity of "some ethnic group created the modern world", like that Irish book and the Jewish one not too long ago.
In terms of technology transfer, the biggest difference is that by the 1300's Europe had states worth mentioning, and people who could read - a much different situation than during the flowering of the Silk Road under the Tang in the 700's, or under the Han around 0 AD. During the Mongol period, Europe was developed enough to be receptive to advanced technologies that it had ignored in the past. One example is the Moldboard Plow, which was in use in China in the Han dynasty, but only adopted by the Europeans in the later Middle Ages.
The other thing I was responding to was the idea that the Mongols turned China into an export manufacturing center. China was always an export manufacturing center - the Mongols just encouraged those exports to follow the Silk Road, as these exports had in the past under the Tang, but had not during the Southern Song, which was isolated from Central Asia and much more focused on the sea trade with East and Southeast Asia.
I also think questions on the form of "why did Europe conquer the world?" are getting outdated, even if their purpose is to counter older racist answers. The question should be "why did Europe for a while dominate the world?". In that it becomes similar to questions about the rise and fall of other empires and takes away the claim to uniqeuness. Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
Unlike Graeber I'm still not convinced this is a particularly European approach to war and conquest. But Europe certainly evangelised it more effectively than any other culture, both physically with a greater geographic spread and intellectually with an impressive cultural carpet bombing.
The same mode is still active today, although it has been somewhat demilitarised except at the edges of the empire, and significantly abstracted into political and financial violence.
It's still evangelically potent, however. In fact it's pretty much the official state religion of the West, in the moral sense of ordering everyone's goals, values, and activities.
In comparison, the 'official' religions are just entertainment.
It's still evangelically potent, however. In fact it's pretty much the official state religion of the West, in the moral sense of ordering everyone's goals, values, and activities. In comparison, the 'official' religions are just entertainment.
"that both outer and inner enlightenment (the current word is development) are damned, even murderous, if they do not honor each other." I think my writings most relevant to tikkun olam have been those, in both poetry and prose, seeking to reduce the tensions between these two strands of enlightenment. Increasingly I see both communism and capitalism as twin offspring of the increasingly secular outer enlightenment of the eighteenth century. This has produced both radical progress and radical problems, along with Comte, Marx, Freud, and today's academic social sciences. This trend has lost sight of the truths of the eighteenth century right-lobe spiritual enlightenment, which eventually produced Blake, Hoelderlin, Kierkegaard, Rilke, and Eliot.
Increasingly I see both communism and capitalism as twin offspring of the increasingly secular outer enlightenment of the eighteenth century. This has produced both radical progress and radical problems, along with Comte, Marx, Freud, and today's academic social sciences. This trend has lost sight of the truths of the eighteenth century right-lobe spiritual enlightenment, which eventually produced Blake, Hoelderlin, Kierkegaard, Rilke, and Eliot.
Then again, as has been mentioned elsewhere, the Qin Emperor was pretty damn nasty.
That Europe imperialized to a greater degree than other regional world Empires was entirely due to their luck of discovering the Americas first, and their ability to take advantage of the disease gradient. Without that, the colonization of the Americas would have been a lot more like the colonization of Africa - which went absolutely nowhere until the the mid 1800's. Without American gold and silver, Europe would have never been able to break the pre-existing trade networks of the Indian Ocean, and world history would have been so utterly and completely different that it's not worth discussing.
That Europe has culturally evangalized to a greater degree is debatable, given the immense spread of Islam. It's too early to tell if the current fad for European culture and values is a passing fad, or a longer-term thing, but it's pretty clear that Islam is here to stay in Central, South, and SE Asia, and North Africa.
And of course I mean capitalist evangelism, with its emphasis on buying, selling, and organised work as perfectible social aims, and competitive profit as the ultimate personal sacrament.
The rest of Western culture - the literature, music and the rest - is a side-show in comparison.
So is Islam, because evangelically there is no such thing, just as there is no such thing as Christianity. Instead, there are hundreds of competing sects, denominations, and value systems, many of which disagree with each other, sometimes violently.
Capitalist evangelism is comparatively uniform, and far more politically and culturally influential. It also squares neatly with the oligarchical political structures of supposedly religious states like Saudi Arabia, and of supposedly hostile states such as China and Russia.
Atomized individualism, material accumulation as the ultimate goal, and an 'anything goes so long as you don't get arrested' morality would describe it better.
Capitalism itself is a different sort of thing, I think, and one that's on the way out, if the current elites have anything to say about it. It's much easier to live based on feudal rent extraction than it is to engage in capitalist competition, after all.
As Graeber suggests, there may have been a distinctly European mode of imperialism which dates back to Rome - possibly earlier - and which has a consistently violent, self-justificatory, and abusive character.
Maybe there was a lasting difference between West and East due to the difference between Alexander and Ashoka, but I don't remember that being one of Graeber's themes. I got more an impression that he argues that debts are one of the prime drivers of atrocity as heavily indebted people engage in high-stakes bets to try to get out from under heavy debts. He dwells on the Spanish conquistadors in the Americas, but he doesn't imply their behaviour is characteristically Western. In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
Hm, I wonder about that. The Han Dynasty empire fell apart around AD 191, and wasn't re-unified until 581, although several rulers of the statelets in-between dreamed of it. In Europe, that dream existed, too, and Charlemagne came close. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
The thesis that as a peripheral region, Europe was not sufficiently compelling to bring the Mongol conquest to France on the western cape of the Eurasian continent is certainly not a surprising one ~ surely nobody can pretend that 1000AD Europe was anything but a peripheral region of the larger axial world system. I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
The thesis that as a peripheral region, Europe was not sufficiently compelling to bring the Mongol conquest to France on the western cape of the Eurasian continent is certainly not a surprising one ~ surely nobody can pretend that 1000AD Europe was anything but a peripheral region of the larger axial world system.
That's not the part to which I was objecting - does anybody seriously make the opposite argument, that only Europe was strong enough to stand up to the Mongols?
To use an obvious example: The decadent byzantine empire, the middle age as dark ages - very much inventions of the liberal historians of the 19th century. And still holding sway.
The 19 century invented history and great historical narratives.
Since historical narratives didn't happen until our gradfathers were alive.
Historical narratives have been with us for generations. Maybe not in Northern Europe, but still. The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
Maybe IM meant historiography rather than history? In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
The qunatity of historians and the reach of their published work in the 19th century had another quality.
German? The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
Modern historiography emerged in 19th century German universities, where Leopold von Ranke revolutionized historiography with his seminars and critical approach; he emphasized politics and diplomacy, dropping the social and cultural themes Voltaire had highlighted. Sources had to be hard, not speculations and rationalizations. His credo was to write history the way it was. He insisted on primary sources with proven authenticity. Hegel and Marx introduced the concept of spirit and dialectical materialism, respectively, into the study of world historical development. Former historians had focused on cyclical events of the rise and decline of rulers and nations. Process of nationalization of history, as part of national revivals in 19th century, resulted with separation of "one's own" history from common universal history by such way of perceiving, understanding and treating the past that constructed history as history of a nation. A new discipline, sociology, emerged in the late 19th century and analyzed and compared these perspectives on a larger scale.
"Maybe not in Northern Europe"
Have I said anything about Northern Europe?
But we won't know for another handful of centuries whether Gibbons turned out to be just a passing fad.
- Jake Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
...do you really want to claim our perception of the roman empire is more influenced by Livy than say Gibbons?
The 19 century invented history and great historical narratives. In the popular perception of history, most of these narratives still rule.
Yale professor Peter Gay says Voltaire wrote "very good history," citing his "scrupulous concern for truths," "careful sifting of evidence," "intelligent selection of what is important," "keen sense of drama," and "grasp of the fact that a whole civilization is a unit of study."
Voltaire had an enormous influence on the development of historiography through his demonstration of fresh new ways to look at the past. His best-known histories are The Age of Louis XIV (1751), and "Essay on the Customs and the Spirit of the Nations" (1756). He broke from the tradition of narrating diplomatic and military events, and emphasized customs, social history and achievements in the arts and sciences. The "Essay on Customs" traced the progress of world civilization in a universal context, thereby rejecting both nationalism and the traditional Christian frame of reference. Influenced by Bossuet's Discourse on the Universal History (1682), he was the first scholar to make a serious attempt to write the history of the world, eliminating theological frameworks, and emphasizing economics, culture and political history. He treated Europe as a whole, rather than a collection of nations. He was the first to emphasize the debt of medieval culture to Arab civilization, but otherwise was weak on the Middle Ages. Although he repeatedly warned against political bias on the part of the historian, he did not miss many opportunities to expose the intolerance and frauds of the church over the ages. Voltaire advised scholars that anything contradicting the normal course of nature was not to be believed. Although he found evil in the historical record, he fervently believed reason and educating the illiterate masses would lead to progress. .... Voltaire's histories imposed the values of the Enlightenment on the past, but he helped free historiography from antiquarianism, Eurocentrism, religious intolerance and a concentration on great men, diplomacy, and warfare
....
Voltaire's histories imposed the values of the Enlightenment on the past, but he helped free historiography from antiquarianism, Eurocentrism, religious intolerance and a concentration on great men, diplomacy, and warfare
But I agree with your point as to the change in the nature of writing history, the number of historians, etc. that characterized the 19th Century, as I noted in an earlier comment. "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
That was Vico.
But of course Vico was instantly forgotten and rediscovered
- in the 19th century(!), by Michelet.
Exactly! Can you say the same of the 19th history historians? Totally different ballgame. Or paradigma.
And you said best historian pre 1800, bot best popular historian.
A lot of the stuff they are credited for in these excerpts were really generic Asian civilization, which had its own ebb and flow and happened to reach a high point (in some ways) during the brief window of Mongol supremacy, or were particular innovations of the Song Dynasty that were exported by the Mongols.
this really sounds like the author was trying to cash in on the recent popularity of "some ethnic group created the modern world"
by gmoke - Oct 4
by gmoke - Oct 1
by Frank Schnittger - Sep 24 3 comments
by Oui - Sep 19 19 comments
by Oui - Sep 13 38 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Sep 11 5 comments
by Cat - Sep 13 9 comments
by Oui - Sep 3025 comments
by Oui - Sep 29
by Oui - Sep 285 comments
by Oui - Sep 2722 comments
by Oui - Sep 2620 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Sep 243 comments
by Oui - Sep 1919 comments
by gmoke - Sep 173 comments
by Oui - Sep 153 comments
by Oui - Sep 15
by Oui - Sep 1411 comments
by Oui - Sep 1338 comments
by Cat - Sep 139 comments
by Oui - Sep 1210 comments
by Frank Schnittger - Sep 115 comments
by Oui - Sep 929 comments
by Oui - Sep 713 comments
by Oui - Sep 61 comment