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I'm kind of confused, because I don't think that's what I wrote, but if I suggested that the Mongols created the Silk Road or Chinese exports, then that is the fault of my poor expression and not the fault of the author.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Mon May 13th, 2013 at 08:36:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I admit I double-checked our diary for "Silk Road", too; but in the end I assumed that Zwackus meant that the Silk Road and Chinese traders brought many of the innovations to Europe which Weatherford credits to the expansion of the Mongol Empire.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Mon May 13th, 2013 at 09:25:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The overseas land empire that the Mongols created allowed for the largest, and final, flowering of the Silk Road, but this system of trade routes was not particularly new.  It was expanded and improved upon thanks to the greater degree of political unity brought by the Mongols, but it was only a difference of degree.

In terms of technology transfer, the biggest difference is that by the 1300's Europe had states worth mentioning, and people who could read - a much different situation than during the flowering of the Silk Road under the Tang in the 700's, or under the Han around 0 AD.  During the Mongol period, Europe was developed enough to be receptive to advanced technologies that it had ignored in the past.  One example is the Moldboard Plow, which was in use in China in the Han dynasty, but only adopted by the Europeans in the later Middle Ages.

The other thing I was responding to was the idea that the Mongols turned China into an export manufacturing center.  China was always an export manufacturing center - the Mongols just encouraged those exports to follow the Silk Road, as these exports had in the past under the Tang, but had not during the Southern Song, which was isolated from Central Asia and much more focused on the sea trade with East and Southeast Asia.

by Zwackus on Mon May 13th, 2013 at 07:56:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose it was the phrase "Mongol Awakening" that grated on me in particular.  A lot of the stuff they are credited for in these excerpts were really generic Asian civilization, which had its own ebb and flow and happened to reach a high point (in some ways) during the brief window of Mongol supremacy, or were particular innovations of the Song Dynasty that were exported by the Mongols.
by Zwackus on Mon May 13th, 2013 at 08:08:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The eurocentrism lives on in this counternarrative if the importance of the Mongols is in their effect on Europe.

I also think questions on the form of "why did Europe conquer the world?" are getting outdated, even if their purpose is to counter older racist answers. The question should be "why did Europe for a while dominate the world?". In that it becomes similar to questions about the rise and fall of other empires and takes away the claim to uniqeuness.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Tue May 14th, 2013 at 06:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agreed entirely.
by Zwackus on Wed May 15th, 2013 at 09:21:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, partly. As Graeber suggests, there may have been a distinctly European mode of imperialism which dates back to Rome - possibly earlier - and which has a consistently violent, self-justificatory, and abusive character.

Unlike Graeber I'm still not convinced this is a particularly European approach to war and conquest. But Europe certainly evangelised it more effectively than any other culture, both physically with a greater geographic spread and intellectually with an impressive cultural carpet bombing.

The same mode is still active today, although it has been somewhat demilitarised except at the edges of the empire, and significantly abstracted into political and financial violence.

It's still evangelically potent, however. In fact it's pretty much the official state religion of the West, in the moral sense of ordering everyone's goals, values, and activities.

In comparison, the 'official' religions are just entertainment.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed May 15th, 2013 at 09:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's still evangelically potent, however. In fact it's pretty much the official state religion of the West, in the moral sense of ordering everyone's goals, values, and activities.

In comparison, the 'official' religions are just entertainment.


This represents the true "dark side" of a major aspect of The Enlightenment Project - secularization  and universalization of what had been religious elements of the culture. Peter Dale Scott observed:
"that both outer and inner enlightenment (the current word is development) are damned, even murderous, if they do not honor each other." I think my writings most relevant to tikkun olam have been those, in both poetry and prose, seeking to reduce the tensions between these two strands of enlightenment.

Increasingly I see both communism and capitalism as twin offspring of the increasingly secular outer enlightenment of the eighteenth century. This has produced both radical progress and radical problems, along with Comte, Marx, Freud, and today's academic social sciences. This trend has lost sight of the truths of the eighteenth century right-lobe spiritual enlightenment, which eventually produced Blake, Hoelderlin, Kierkegaard, Rilke, and Eliot.




"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed May 15th, 2013 at 01:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That warfare and imperialism in the Mediterranean world may have been different, on average, than in other major centers of civilization seems possible.  I don't think you can say it dates back to the Romans, though, as the Assyrians seem to have set a strong precedent.

Then again, as has been mentioned elsewhere, the Qin Emperor was pretty damn nasty.

That Europe imperialized to a greater degree than other regional world Empires was entirely due to their luck of discovering the Americas first, and their ability to take advantage of the disease gradient.  Without that, the colonization of the Americas would have been a lot more like the colonization of Africa - which went absolutely nowhere until the the mid 1800's.  Without American gold and silver, Europe would have never been able to break the pre-existing trade networks of the Indian Ocean, and world history would have been so utterly and completely different that it's not worth discussing.

That Europe has culturally evangalized to a greater degree is debatable, given the immense spread of Islam.  It's too early to tell if the current fad for European culture and values is a passing fad, or a longer-term thing, but it's pretty clear that Islam is here to stay in Central, South, and SE Asia, and North Africa.  

by Zwackus on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:22:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The point for me is recognising that Western evangelism is evangelical in nature, and not - let's say - diplomatically persuasive.

And of course I mean capitalist evangelism, with its emphasis on buying, selling, and organised work as perfectible social aims, and competitive profit as the ultimate personal sacrament.

The rest of Western culture - the literature, music and the rest - is a side-show in comparison.

So is Islam, because evangelically there is no such thing, just as there is no such thing as Christianity. Instead, there are hundreds of competing sects, denominations, and value systems, many of which disagree with each other, sometimes violently.

Capitalist evangelism is comparatively uniform, and far more politically and culturally influential. It also squares neatly with the oligarchical political structures of supposedly religious states like Saudi Arabia, and of supposedly hostile states such as China and Russia.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 08:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd argue that the set of values being evangelized is slightly different, and that they're not necessarily Capitalist.

Atomized individualism, material accumulation as the ultimate goal, and an 'anything goes so long as you don't get arrested' morality would describe it better.

Capitalism itself is a different sort of thing, I think, and one that's on the way out, if the current elites have anything to say about it.  It's much easier to live based on feudal rent extraction than it is to engage in capitalist competition, after all.

by Zwackus on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 11:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As Graeber suggests, there may have been a distinctly European mode of imperialism which dates back to Rome - possibly earlier - and which has a consistently violent, self-justificatory, and abusive character.
I didn't see Graeber (in Debt, I presume) suggesting a peculiarly European mode of imperialism. He sees parallels between Europe and India's medieval structures after the end of the first age of empires ca. 300BC - 600AD. Of the three major civilizations born in the Axial Age (China, India, Mesopotamia), China seems to have had a different development, not having lost its empire in the "dark ages" of the late first millennium.

Maybe there was a lasting difference between West and East due to the difference between Alexander and Ashoka, but I don't remember that being one of Graeber's themes. I got more an impression that he argues that debts are one of the prime drivers of atrocity as heavily indebted people engage in high-stakes bets to try to get out from under heavy debts. He dwells on the Spanish conquistadors in the Americas, but he doesn't imply their behaviour is characteristically Western.

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 05:11:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
China seems to have had a different development, not having lost its empire in the "dark ages" of the late first millennium

Hm, I wonder about that. The Han Dynasty empire fell apart around AD 191, and wasn't re-unified until 581, although several rulers of the statelets in-between dreamed of it. In Europe, that dream existed, too, and Charlemagne came close.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 09:33:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I should look back at what Graeber says about the breakdown of the Empires and the organization in the early middle ages...

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 10:41:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mongol Awakening seems to make sense to me as a relocation of the process that is described in Eurocentric terms as the Renaissance ~ clearly the Mongol Empire did not bring the East-Asian dominated long Axial world trading system into being, but they did re-awaken it after a period in which at least the land-based part of the trading system had gone to sleep a bit.

The thesis that as a peripheral region, Europe was not sufficiently compelling to bring the Mongol conquest to France on the western cape of the Eurasian continent is certainly not a surprising one ~ surely nobody can pretend that 1000AD Europe was anything but a peripheral region of the larger axial world system.


I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.

by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:00:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The thesis that as a peripheral region, Europe was not sufficiently compelling to bring the Mongol conquest to France on the western cape of the Eurasian continent is certainly not a surprising one ~ surely nobody can pretend that 1000AD Europe was anything but a peripheral region of the larger axial world system.

That's not the part to which I was objecting - does anybody seriously make the opposite argument, that only Europe was strong enough to stand up to the Mongols?

by Zwackus on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:23:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The traditional narrative was "a miracle occured" - the Khan died, the mongols turned around.
by IM on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 04:20:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which fits nicely into both the conservative historical tradition where history is a morality play (directed by God, but nowadays they usually leave that out) and the liberal historical tradition where history is shaped by Great Men.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 05:14:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I never saw the "great men" theory of history as a "liberal" tradition. It's too close to the conservative adoration of kingship by the (grace of God)...

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 05:35:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Its the name it has in the history of historical traditions, so it is liberal in the 19th century sense. Could as well be called individualistic history. It was to a large extent defeated by the materialistic tradition, and after that history more or less gave up the grand narratives, leaving the exisiting in place while spending time to debunk them.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 05:52:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"...the liberal historical tradition..." ...in English historiography is usually called "the Whig view of history"...The Glorious Revolution, Constitutional Monarchy, religious toleration and the emergence of monied interests as at least co-equal with landed wealth in the political realm.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 10:43:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Most of the traditional historical narratives were invented in 19th century. By liberals of different liberal streams. The 19 century invented history and great historical narratives. In the popular perception of history, most of these narratives still rule.

To use an obvious example: The decadent byzantine empire, the middle age as dark ages - very much inventions of the liberal historians of the 19th century. And still holding sway.

by IM on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 10:54:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 19 century invented history and great historical narratives.
That is itself a narrative invented in the 19th century :D

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 11:26:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
never existed.

Since historical narratives didn't happen until our gradfathers were alive.

Historical narratives have been with us for generations. Maybe not in Northern Europe, but still.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:11:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And Pliny, and...

Maybe IM meant historiography rather than history?

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You mentioned four names, strewn about five centuries. Five Years in 19th century europe did see more (durable) output by historians.

The qunatity of historians and the reach of their published work in the 19th century had another quality.

by IM on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:33:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
those historians of whom you speak...

German?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, you know...
Modern historiography emerged in 19th century German universities, where Leopold von Ranke revolutionized historiography with his seminars and critical approach; he emphasized politics and diplomacy, dropping the social and cultural themes Voltaire had highlighted. Sources had to be hard, not speculations and rationalizations. His credo was to write history the way it was. He insisted on primary sources with proven authenticity. Hegel and Marx introduced the concept of spirit and dialectical materialism, respectively, into the study of world historical development. Former historians had focused on cyclical events of the rise and decline of rulers and nations. Process of nationalization of history, as part of national revivals in 19th century, resulted with separation of "one's own" history from common universal history by such way of perceiving, understanding and treating the past that constructed history as history of a nation. A new discipline, sociology, emerged in the late 19th century and analyzed and compared these perspectives on a larger scale.


In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:43:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I said most. And do you really want to claim our perception of the roman empire is more influenced by Livy than say Gibbons?

"Maybe not in Northern Europe"

Have I said anything about Northern Europe?

by IM on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:37:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not yet.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Whats's that? Minority report?
by IM on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 01:11:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"No, Livy is not yet more influential than Gibbons."

But we won't know for another handful of centuries whether Gibbons turned out to be just a passing fad.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 01:24:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
...do you really want to claim our perception of the roman empire is more influenced by Livy than say Gibbons?

Perhaps by Livy through Gibbons.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 04:32:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Since they did treat different time periods, hardly likely.
by IM on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 04:56:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The 19 century invented history and great historical narratives. In the popular perception of history, most of these narratives still rule.

Voltaire, Montesquieu, Hume and Gibbon might beg to differ and all had viewed the period before the Renaissance as 'The Dark Ages'. Re-appraisal of the middle ages came from Romantic era historians in the 19th century. The rise of nationalism, increased literacy and the broadening of the political base during the 19th Century created a real need for historians to create suitable frameworks for viewing national histories.  

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 04:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Quibbling about some decades doesn't change much. Are the authors mentioned to the 19th century or e. g. Livy?
by IM on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 04:57:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
All died before 1800. David Hume wrote a History of England, Voltaire best known history was The Age of Louis XIV, but also wrote The Age of Louis XV, The Chronicles of the Empire from Charlemagne to Ferdinand II in two volumes, a two volume history of Russia under Peter the Great, etc. The American historian of the enlightenment Peter Gay had high praise for Voltaire as a historian, as did my French History Professor. Gay from wiki:
Yale professor Peter Gay says Voltaire wrote "very good history," citing his "scrupulous concern for truths," "careful sifting of evidence," "intelligent selection of what is important," "keen sense of drama," and "grasp of the fact that a whole civilization is a unit of study."

Just previous in the same wiki article there is this:
Voltaire had an enormous influence on the development of historiography through his demonstration of fresh new ways to look at the past. His best-known histories are The Age of Louis XIV (1751), and "Essay on the Customs and the Spirit of the Nations" (1756). He broke from the tradition of narrating diplomatic and military events, and emphasized customs, social history and achievements in the arts and sciences. The "Essay on Customs" traced the progress of world civilization in a universal context, thereby rejecting both nationalism and the traditional Christian frame of reference. Influenced by Bossuet's Discourse on the Universal History (1682), he was the first scholar to make a serious attempt to write the history of the world, eliminating theological frameworks, and emphasizing economics, culture and political history. He treated Europe as a whole, rather than a collection of nations. He was the first to emphasize the debt of medieval culture to Arab civilization, but otherwise was weak on the Middle Ages. Although he repeatedly warned against political bias on the part of the historian, he did not miss many opportunities to expose the intolerance and frauds of the church over the ages. Voltaire advised scholars that anything contradicting the normal course of nature was not to be believed. Although he found evil in the historical record, he fervently believed reason and educating the illiterate masses would lead to progress.

....

Voltaire's histories imposed the values of the Enlightenment on the past, but he helped free historiography from antiquarianism, Eurocentrism, religious intolerance and a concentration on great men, diplomacy, and warfare


In many ways  Leopold von Ranke narrow focus on politics and diplomacy was a big step backwards from Voltaire, as was the rise of nationalist 'national histories' in the 19th Century. Voltaire was likely by far the best historian working prior to 1800.

But I agree with your point as to the change in the nature of writing history, the number of historians, etc. that characterized the 19th Century, as I noted in an earlier comment.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 08:23:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Voltaire was likely by far the best historian working prior to 1800."

That was Vico.

But of course Vico was instantly forgotten and rediscovered

- in the 19th century(!), by Michelet.

by IM on Fri May 17th, 2013 at 03:10:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Michelet had an enormous advantage over his contemporaries - he had  access to the records of the French monarchy, going back who knows how far, before they were lost in a fire.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri May 17th, 2013 at 11:27:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You see, the paradigma for historians in the 19th century was quite different.
by IM on Fri May 17th, 2013 at 12:58:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
But Vico was not widely read, even by 18th Centrry standards, as you note. Perhaps Voltaire read him. And Vico wrote much more about how to write history than actually writing history. Wiki only lists four works: "On Humanistic Education,"  "On the Study Methods of Our Time," "Universal right" and "The New Science", the latter of which was probably his most widely read work.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri May 17th, 2013 at 11:41:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But Vico was not widely read, even by 18th Centrry standards, as you note.

Exactly! Can you say the same of the 19th history historians? Totally different ballgame. Or paradigma.

And you said best historian pre 1800, bot best popular historian.

by IM on Fri May 17th, 2013 at 12:56:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would still go with Voltaire. He and Vico are roughly comparable on the subject of critical historiography but Voltaire produced a healthy shelf of actual histories which were, by 18th century standards, widely read. His were the best works available at the time on the history of the Holy Roman Empire, Russia under Peter I and contemporary French History. Vico, though important, (he was discussed in some of my university courses), did not produce a comparable body of works of history. Of course in those days most educated people were more generalists in nature, but of all of Voltaire's literary accomplishments, wiki lists his histories first, and not without reason.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Fri May 17th, 2013 at 03:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I only have whatever portion of your objection that you expressed to go on. You said:
A lot of the stuff they are credited for in these excerpts were really generic Asian civilization, which had its own ebb and flow and happened to reach a high point (in some ways) during the brief window of Mongol supremacy, or were particular innovations of the Song Dynasty that were exported by the Mongols.

None of which is contradicted by the connotations of the phrase "Mongol Awakening", so none of which are a reason to find the phrase grating.

I've been accused of being a Marxist, yet while Harpo's my favourite, it's Groucho I'm always quoting. Odd, that.
by BruceMcF (agila61 at netscape dot net) on Sun May 19th, 2013 at 03:58:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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