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Well, partly. As Graeber suggests, there may have been a distinctly European mode of imperialism which dates back to Rome - possibly earlier - and which has a consistently violent, self-justificatory, and abusive character.

Unlike Graeber I'm still not convinced this is a particularly European approach to war and conquest. But Europe certainly evangelised it more effectively than any other culture, both physically with a greater geographic spread and intellectually with an impressive cultural carpet bombing.

The same mode is still active today, although it has been somewhat demilitarised except at the edges of the empire, and significantly abstracted into political and financial violence.

It's still evangelically potent, however. In fact it's pretty much the official state religion of the West, in the moral sense of ordering everyone's goals, values, and activities.

In comparison, the 'official' religions are just entertainment.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed May 15th, 2013 at 09:32:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's still evangelically potent, however. In fact it's pretty much the official state religion of the West, in the moral sense of ordering everyone's goals, values, and activities.

In comparison, the 'official' religions are just entertainment.


This represents the true "dark side" of a major aspect of The Enlightenment Project - secularization  and universalization of what had been religious elements of the culture. Peter Dale Scott observed:
"that both outer and inner enlightenment (the current word is development) are damned, even murderous, if they do not honor each other." I think my writings most relevant to tikkun olam have been those, in both poetry and prose, seeking to reduce the tensions between these two strands of enlightenment.

Increasingly I see both communism and capitalism as twin offspring of the increasingly secular outer enlightenment of the eighteenth century. This has produced both radical progress and radical problems, along with Comte, Marx, Freud, and today's academic social sciences. This trend has lost sight of the truths of the eighteenth century right-lobe spiritual enlightenment, which eventually produced Blake, Hoelderlin, Kierkegaard, Rilke, and Eliot.




"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed May 15th, 2013 at 01:56:26 PM EST
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That warfare and imperialism in the Mediterranean world may have been different, on average, than in other major centers of civilization seems possible.  I don't think you can say it dates back to the Romans, though, as the Assyrians seem to have set a strong precedent.

Then again, as has been mentioned elsewhere, the Qin Emperor was pretty damn nasty.

That Europe imperialized to a greater degree than other regional world Empires was entirely due to their luck of discovering the Americas first, and their ability to take advantage of the disease gradient.  Without that, the colonization of the Americas would have been a lot more like the colonization of Africa - which went absolutely nowhere until the the mid 1800's.  Without American gold and silver, Europe would have never been able to break the pre-existing trade networks of the Indian Ocean, and world history would have been so utterly and completely different that it's not worth discussing.

That Europe has culturally evangalized to a greater degree is debatable, given the immense spread of Islam.  It's too early to tell if the current fad for European culture and values is a passing fad, or a longer-term thing, but it's pretty clear that Islam is here to stay in Central, South, and SE Asia, and North Africa.  

by Zwackus on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 12:22:02 AM EST
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The point for me is recognising that Western evangelism is evangelical in nature, and not - let's say - diplomatically persuasive.

And of course I mean capitalist evangelism, with its emphasis on buying, selling, and organised work as perfectible social aims, and competitive profit as the ultimate personal sacrament.

The rest of Western culture - the literature, music and the rest - is a side-show in comparison.

So is Islam, because evangelically there is no such thing, just as there is no such thing as Christianity. Instead, there are hundreds of competing sects, denominations, and value systems, many of which disagree with each other, sometimes violently.

Capitalist evangelism is comparatively uniform, and far more politically and culturally influential. It also squares neatly with the oligarchical political structures of supposedly religious states like Saudi Arabia, and of supposedly hostile states such as China and Russia.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 08:13:13 AM EST
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I'd argue that the set of values being evangelized is slightly different, and that they're not necessarily Capitalist.

Atomized individualism, material accumulation as the ultimate goal, and an 'anything goes so long as you don't get arrested' morality would describe it better.

Capitalism itself is a different sort of thing, I think, and one that's on the way out, if the current elites have anything to say about it.  It's much easier to live based on feudal rent extraction than it is to engage in capitalist competition, after all.

by Zwackus on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 11:37:45 PM EST
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As Graeber suggests, there may have been a distinctly European mode of imperialism which dates back to Rome - possibly earlier - and which has a consistently violent, self-justificatory, and abusive character.
I didn't see Graeber (in Debt, I presume) suggesting a peculiarly European mode of imperialism. He sees parallels between Europe and India's medieval structures after the end of the first age of empires ca. 300BC - 600AD. Of the three major civilizations born in the Axial Age (China, India, Mesopotamia), China seems to have had a different development, not having lost its empire in the "dark ages" of the late first millennium.

Maybe there was a lasting difference between West and East due to the difference between Alexander and Ashoka, but I don't remember that being one of Graeber's themes. I got more an impression that he argues that debts are one of the prime drivers of atrocity as heavily indebted people engage in high-stakes bets to try to get out from under heavy debts. He dwells on the Spanish conquistadors in the Americas, but he doesn't imply their behaviour is characteristically Western.

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 05:11:46 AM EST
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China seems to have had a different development, not having lost its empire in the "dark ages" of the late first millennium

Hm, I wonder about that. The Han Dynasty empire fell apart around AD 191, and wasn't re-unified until 581, although several rulers of the statelets in-between dreamed of it. In Europe, that dream existed, too, and Charlemagne came close.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 09:33:58 AM EST
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I should look back at what Graeber says about the breakdown of the Empires and the organization in the early middle ages...

In the long run, we're all misquoted — not Keynes
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 16th, 2013 at 10:41:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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