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Uhm. The logic of the draconian punishments was mainly to preclude reprisals - dead pimps beat up nobody.
There are less harsh things that would also help - for example, not automatically deporting the women in question, but instead having some sort of plan for putting their lives back together.
Re; trusting the police. This too, is an issue that can be fixed. Better training. Job-video-logging. It would cost very little to record everything that happens near a cop. Cameras and storage media are cheap, sticking the former on their uniforms and the latter on their belts would not cost much. And would take all element of "he said, she said" out of any disputes about their behavior. Which is better for the cops, and better for the citizens.
by Thomas on Wed Jun 12th, 2013 at 03:10:37 PM EST
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Uhm. The logic of the draconian punishments was mainly to preclude reprisals - dead pimps beat up nobody.

You're still assuming that the police will actually pursue the case, and that the pimp will be convicted.

And that the pimp doesn't have friends who will revoke your breathing privileges on his behalf. After all, a democratic state can't just round up all a mafioso's friends and put them in a concentration camp. Rule of law doesn't work like that.

This too, is an issue that can be fixed. Better training. Job-video-logging. It would cost very little to record everything that happens near a cop. Cameras and storage media are cheap, sticking the former on their uniforms and the latter on their belts would not cost much. And would take all element of "he said, she said" out of any disputes about their behavior. Which is better for the cops, and better for the citizens.

A good deal better for the citizens and for some of the cops. Not so great for others.

There's the outright thugs, of course, who will object to no longer being able cook their testimonies or push their colleagues to cook theirs. My heart bleeds for them, but we sadly need to take them seriously as a political faction.

Additionally, there are certain times (such as the recent Chinese state visit) where cops are given a set of official instructions (such as keeping the foreign dignitary safe) and a set of... less official instructions (... from seeing any Tibetan flags). I'm not convinced that scapegoating the cop who gets caught on tape obeying an unwritten, extralegal order will do anything at all to make that sort of orders stop happening. And until that sort of orders stops happening, the police has what you might call a credibility issue.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Wed Jun 12th, 2013 at 04:15:05 PM EST
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That is part of what I meant with "Better for the cops". If the cops routinely log everything, this shields them from orders of this kind. Because those would also get logged. The idea being that the system is always on during working hours. It would also be a helpful investigative tool, just because digital storage stomps all over memory for reliability, and with good tagging habits, one could go back and review things, and check with coworkers if witness seven is as suspicious as he seems to you, or if he just did not like the cut of your jib.
by Thomas on Sat Jun 15th, 2013 at 10:16:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That is part of what I meant with "Better for the cops". If the cops routinely log everything, this shields them from orders of this kind. Because those would also get logged. The idea being that the system is always on during working hours.

This only holds if (a) all or most communications are intercepted with high fidelity, (b) all or most intercepted communications are routinely investigated by independent third parties and (c) bosses are prosecuted for giving illegal orders.

If a significant fraction of communications are unmonitored, either because they are not intercepted or because it requires an active complaint before the records are accessed, it just creates an incentive to hush up the communications. And if cops cannot trust that a boss who gives an illegal order will reliably go down in flames upon exposure, they have an incentive to collaborate.

And since the boss is frequently only one or two handshakes from the Minister of Justice, and since the Minister of Justice is accountable only to a parliamentary majority, not to the rule of law, the officer cannot count on this happening.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sat Jun 15th, 2013 at 03:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
... really, take a moment and consider if you are not overdoing your cynicism. I called it learned helplessness before, but I see this often - people being way to good at thinking of ways for a reform to fail, and not vetting their pessimism right. Specifically. You really think any politician is knowingly going to order a cop to be a law-breaking thug on camera, and get away with it too?

Uhm. Not bloody likely.

by Thomas on Sun Jun 16th, 2013 at 04:34:59 AM EST
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The more likely problem is going to be political resistance to implementing such a system at all, due to the above. Might in fact be the reason it is not done currently, and puts a really depressing spin on the way lots of places view citizens recording cops. The police are agents of the social order, if they are doing their jobs even remotely right, all of their actions should stand up to the light of day.
by Thomas on Sun Jun 16th, 2013 at 04:38:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]


Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 16th, 2013 at 07:57:53 AM EST
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You give this briefing prior to the event:

This is a controversial visit, and as such we must be prepared for attempts by protesters to force a confrontation with the delegation of foreign dignitaries. I would like to stress the importance to our relationship with the visiting country of keeping the delegation safe and keeping the event running smoothly. But I would also like to stress the importance of respecting the democratic rights of protesters to gather and voice their concern in an appropriate manner.

If the police disperse a lawful protest during the event, you release the following statement to the press:

The police was given clear instructions to respect the democratic rights of protesters to gather and voice their concern. It is deeply regrettable that individual officers have taken their desire to keep the delegation safe to inappropriate levels, and a full inquiry will determine the level and extent of culpability.

If the police fails to disperse a protest that annoys the foreign dignitary, you send the following memo to the chief of police:

The august foreign dignitaries were accosted by protesters representing their domestic opposition parties outside the headquarters of one of our large export businesses. This left the delegation with with the highly unfortunate impression that the government condones, or perhaps even supports, opposition protests at official state visits. Such support would, of course, be a gross violation of long-standing diplomatic protocol.

It is the view of the foreign service that the conduct of this event should be examined for possible lessons on how we may better ensure that future visits proceed smoothly.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Jun 16th, 2013 at 07:48:06 AM EST
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During the Stuttgart 21 protests, the police were told to be confrontational so that "violence-ready elements" among the protesters will 'show their true face'. "Confrontational" meant unprovoked tear gas attacks and baton charges and pepper spray into people's eyes from short distance.

When asked to justify their behaviour, police claimed that they were provoked by violent protesters who used pepper spray themselves and threw stones, and showed two videos as proof. The date/time of the videos was blackened out. Later the same videos were shown in court, with date/time exposed, proving that those events happened hours after the initial police attacks.

(If you speak German, check this TV report for the details.)

The scandalisation and exposure of this case of requested-from-above police violence is not unconnected to the fact that victims were mostly 'decent' middle-class and upper-middle-class people who couldn't be assumed to have been some Black Bloc idiots who 'got what they deserved'. When it hits hard-leftists, working-class youth or immigrants, the evidence will get much less media play.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sun Jun 16th, 2013 at 02:48:01 PM EST
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