Top Diaries

The only real alternative is a new party lead by a charismatic figure who can generate appeal and get the message out. For all his perceived faults Beppe Grillo has shown that this can be done on a significant scale. What we need are new leaders of new party/movements with some of Grillo's gifts but who ARE temperamentally and intellectually capable of governing.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Aug 25th, 2013 at 03:21:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Populism only works if the thing you're saying is actually popular, but supressed by the elite. German hard-money madness seems not to be an exclusivey elite opinion, but widespread among the German people as a whole.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Aug 26th, 2013 at 06:25:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Even so, a populist appeal could be based not on an argument about views on money but on how their wages have stagnated while the portion going to the top has increased, on how their 'sacrifice' has been squirreled away in Swiss banks by the rich while the bought and paid for politicians dream up reasons why documents showing who has what secret, untaxed, numbered Swiss account should not be used to go after those rich who, after all, make the contributions that enable the politicians to govern.

Then, after they have their attention, start undermining the hard money view. Point out that the Old Testament in several places advocates Jubilees and that when Jesus said "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" he was talking about money as well as other aspects of personal behavior. Ask them how, when the dragon has ALL the wealth, including theirs, in his hoard are the rest to get by, especially in old age. Ask why, if jobs, benefits and pensions are the first thing Greeks and Portuguese are asked to sacrifice, their own jobs, benefits and pensions will not follow suit after Greece and Portugal have been sucked dry.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:02:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That is wishful thinking. The Left already does a tax the rich campaign. So do the Social Democrats. Running on tax increases is always an iffy position. They are doing it at a time when the budget is near a surplus. This is not going to work and the Social Democrats are already reversing. If you do populism in Germany it would be aimed at a breakup of the monetary union. Germans see their money not going to the filthy rich, but to the southerners.

You need to face the situation as it is and not like you want it to be. Hard money is a genuine national consensus in Germany. No likely government will have the votes to go against it.

The possible options are hard money or no Euro.

by oliver on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:57:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The possible options are hard money or no Euro.

Which is why the hard money loonies (such as the AfD and others) are for no Euro.

Right.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:02:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For the EU these are the only options. Germany will stay on hard money. As will any currency union Germany is a member of. It is simply no use harboring any hopes there.

by oliver on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:06:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is rather the problem.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:16:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We can hear you whispering "And good thing too!" under your breath, you know. :-)

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:36:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Pure projection! ;)

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:50:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That doesn't make me wrong. Rejecting the message because you dislike the messenger isn't helpful.

by oliver on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 01:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you demanding hard money?

by rifek on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 01:09:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Migeru:

the hard money loonies (such as the AfD and others) are for no Euro

Well, yeah, because they see the Euro as soft money.

See "hard-left leader says government is overheating printing press".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Silly me (n/t) (none / 1)

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:18:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I see the euro as fake money. It is supposed to be a sovereign currency, but it hasn't a sovereign behind it. That is the real euro crisis.

by rifek on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 01:13:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Euro is part of a deliberate programme to abolish Sovereigns everywhere. Reshaping Fiscal Policies In Europe: Enforcing Austerity, Attacking Democracy (11/02/2013 BY HUGO RADICE, Social Europe Journal)

These proposals, when fully implemented, will not only enforce a permanent regime of fiscal austerity, but also further remove macroeconomic policy from democratic control. For these reasons they need to be vigorously fought right across Europe. But if readers in the UK imagine that they are not affected, since we are not in the Eurozone, they need to think again, for the structural deficit has also become the preferred fiscal target of Chancellor Osborne, backed by the Office of Budget Responsibility. While the most influential economic think tanks, the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the National Institute for Economic and Social research, have begun to challenge the Coalition's austerity policies, they have not as yet repudiated the use of the structural deficit as a fiscal target. So what exactly is the structural deficit, and why is it such a danger?
...
What lies behind this extraordinary restriction to be placed on the democratic right of national parliaments to determine fiscal policy? In essence, it is the politics of depoliticisation. European business and political élites want to avoid any return to `Keynesian' active macroeconomic management, which they see as inherently liable to capture by popular interests. During the neoliberal era, they have therefore increasingly sought to insulate economic policy decisions from democratic control, by handing over monetary policy to independent central banks; subordinating spending departments to Treasury / Finance Ministry control; and imposing fiscal targets. This drive has been supported by a wide-ranging ideological offensive, centred on the supposed virtues of `efficient' markets, supply-side competitiveness measures, flexible labour markets, tax cuts for the rich, privatisation, and free movement across borders of trade and capital (but not labour).
In Britain, mainstream political scientists have framed these changes in the wider narrative of public choice between market and state as modes of economic regulation, on which distinct `varieties of capitalism' have evolved. They assume that there is broad agreement on all sides as to society's core values and goals, and that the choice of a given variety (with specified policy institutional and practices) is made on the basis of their effectiveness. `Depoliticisation', in this narrative, is about a shift from state to market.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 02:15:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The Left already does a tax the rich campaign.

As if tax rates were the only lever! How about "They are squirreling away what they made by not giving workers a raise in Swiss bank accounts and not even paying taxes on it!" ?? How is that soft money?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Garman body politic wants to protect the return on savings (of the older generation) even at the cost of a lost generation of young people.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 01:07:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I didn't realize that it was the return on savings that caused some of the older generation to put their money in numbered Swiss accounts. Silly me. How I wish the Fed would set at least a 2% rate on some of its bonds. What a concept! Return on savings.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 09:06:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You cannot make a campaign against tax reduction schemes involving foreign countries while remaining pro-Euro. It is too fine a distinction to campaign on.

by oliver on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 01:50:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So it is necessary to tolerate tax evasion on a massive scale in savings denominated in Swiss Franks in order to remain pro-Euro. This has truly been an enlightening discussion.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 09:08:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This cannot is especially regarding the recent crumbling of switzerland as a tax haven a quite dubious claim.

by IM on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 03:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I wish you would read what I actually wrote. I said you cannot campaign on it alone. Something can be done. It just doesn't win you an election. The German Social Democrats did kill the tax amnesty treaty with Switzerland. There has been no effect in the numbers.

by oliver on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 03:20:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Now you are shifting the goalposts. That is very much not what you wrote. You claimed that is impossible to campaign on tax evasion, tax harmonization etc. without campaigning against the euro. And that is obviously not true.

by IM on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 03:51:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hey, Schäuble does it at the EcoFin...

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 04:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The German Social Democrats tried. Their candidate for chancellor tried even while he still was a minister. It didn't work.

by oliver on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 04:12:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So can you tell us what are the forces in German society that consider the Euro synonymous with tax evasion to foreign havens?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 04:17:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If you watch the video in this thread you'll see Sahra Wagennecht's hobby horse of tax harmonisation, and her mentions of Luxembourg, Ireland and the Netherlands. Of course you can campaign on it, especially in Germany. Everyone does it.

But since the need to rein in tax competition is close to a national consensus in Germany there isn't much to gain from it electorally.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 03:47:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But pointing out to the many that their foregone wage increases are happily residing un-taxed in numbered Swiss bank accounts might create some doubt about the wisdom and fairness of the current policies - who it really benefits and at whose cost.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 12:54:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hitler and Mussolini were charismatic and got "the message" out. Robespierre, Napoleon, Franco, scores of others (Reagan and Thatcher, snort). The man on horseback is the bane of any reason-based civilization, not the savior.

by rifek on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 01:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Merkel Does The Devil's Work (4.00 / 7)

Eurointelligence: Münchau says SPD is lost for words (04.04.2013)

In his Spiegel Online column, Wolfgang Münchau says the rise in European unemployent is a totally unsurprising consequence of the austerity policy. What is surprising, however, is the complete inability by Social Democrats, in Germany and elsewhere, to attack conservative governments over the rise in unemployment. He says the reason is an abandonment of macroeconomics in the politics of the left (the right has abandoned macro a long time ago). Now that we have entered into a massive macroeconomic crisis, the SPD is lost for words to attack those who are responsible for this calamity, notable Angela Merkel and her austerity policy. Münchau was particularly scathing about Gerhard Schröder's interview in Spiegel this week, in which he lauded Merkel's crisis policies.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 25th, 2013 at 03:47:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Merkel Does The Devil's Work (4.00 / 5)

Also: Munchau on the SPD (01.08.2013)

In the first instalment of a four-part series on the election platforms of the main political parties in Germany, Wolfgang Munchau expressed disappointment about the SPD's platform, and criticises the almost exclusive emphasis on financial sector reform to the exclusion of everything else. For once, the proposed reforms do not even address the main financial sector problem - that of undercapitalised banks. But what is really disturbing to Munchau is that this once Keynesian party has now fully bought in to the neo-classical policy consensus in Germany, and accepts further fiscal retrenchment without any discussion. The SPD thus offers no macroeconomic alternative policies at all. He says those who support Angela Merkel have no reason to fear Peer Steinbruck. But those who do not, have no reason have no reason to vote for him either.

Note that Münchau ran a 4-instalment series on the economic programs of the major German Parties. 4, because Die Linke was not included.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 25th, 2013 at 03:50:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Merkel Does The Devil's Work (4.00 / 8)

While we're on the topic of Münchau's Spiegel columns on the economic program of the German Parties: Wenn Politiker vom Stammtisch aufstehen (21.08.2013)

Laut dem Programm der Grünen ist die Krise keineswegs das Resultat unverantwortlicher Haushaltspolitik im Süden, sondern eine Konsequenz von Kapitalströmen, die sich aus gesamtwirtschaftlichen Ungleichgewichten ergeben. Die deutschen Leistungsbilanzüberschüsse sind somit genauso ein Teil der Ungleichgewichte wie die Defizite in den Südländern. Die Grünen haben ebenfalls recht mit der Feststellung, dass die Hilfsprogramme nicht aus Nächstenliebe erfolgt sind, sondern zur Stabilisierung von Banken und Versicherung, auch und insbesondere in Deutschland. Die Politik des Sparens hat die Krise verstärkt und den sozialen Zusammenhalt geschwächt.
...
Die Grünen sind in ihren Lösungsvorschlägen etwas konkreter als die SPD, neigen aber auch zur Überfrachtung. Steuerdumping ist nicht schön, aber kein zentrales Element der Krise. Man kann die Zyprer dazu verdonnern, die Steuern zu erhöhen. Aber das ist eher eine Demonstration deutscher Macht als ein Versuch, die Krise zu lösen. Die Jugendarbeitslosigkeit ist schlimm, sie ist aber nur eine Konsequenz der Dauerrezession. Die Rezession wiederum ist die Konsequenz der Sparpolitik in Verbindung mit der Finanzkrise. Wer die Jugendarbeitslosigkeit bekämpfen will, sollte sich für das Ende der Sparprogramme einsetzen und für eine echte europäische Bankenunion. Spezielle Programme gegen die Jugendarbeitslosigkeit sind unsinnig, solange man das eigentliche Problem nicht löst.
Die Grünen sind für Euro-Bonds. Mich als Befürworter solcher gemeinsamen Anleihen aller Euro-Staaten sollte das freuen. Aber die Grünen wollen einen Typus von gemeinsamer Anleihe, von dem ich weniger überzeugt bin - den Schuldentilgungsbond. Basierend auf einem Vorschlag des Sachverständigenrats der Bundesregierung, handelt es sich hier um ein Instrument, das explizit nur zur Schuldentilgung dient.

When politicians step away from the debating table

According to the Green program, the crisis is not the result of irresponsible fiscal policy in the south, but a consequence of capital flows arising from macroeconomic imbalances. The German current account surpluses are thus as much a part of the imbalances as the deficits in the southern countries. The Greens are also right in noting that the ad programs are not done out of charity, but to stabilize banks and insurers, also and especially in Germany. The austerity policy has strengthened the crisis and weakened social cohesion.
...
The Greens are more specific than the SPD in their proposed solutions but also tend to overdo it. Tax dumping is not nice, but also not a central element of the crisis. One can condemn the Cypriots to raise taxes. But this is more of a demonstration German power than an attempt to resolve the crisis. Youth unemployment is bad, but it's just a consequence of the recession period. The recession in turn is a consequence of the austerity policy in conjunction with the financial crisis. Whoever wants to tackle youth unemployment should set themselves for an end to austerity and for a genuine European banking union. Special programs against youth unemployment are nonsense, as long as one does not solve the real problem.
The Greens are for euro bonds. As a proponent of such common bonds for all euro countries I should look favourably on this. But the Greens want a type of common bond of which I am less convinced - the debt redemption bond. Based on a proposal of the Expert Council of the Federal Government, we're talking about an instrument that explicitly serves only to repay debt.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Aug 25th, 2013 at 05:12:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

At least one German party seems to have at least a partial grip on what is actually happening.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Aug 26th, 2013 at 03:38:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wolfgang Münchau über das Wahlprogramm der Linken - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Note that Münchau ran a 4-instalment series on the economic programs of the major German Parties. 4, because Die Linke was not included.

Die Linken sind neben den Grünen die einzige Partei, deren Programm auf einer ehrlichen und intelligenten Analyse der Euro-Krise basiert.

by generic on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 02:07:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That was not in the program :)

Was mir an der Position der Linken besonders gefällt, ist die konsequente Umsetzung ihrer Analyse zur Krise auf ihr Abstimmungsverhalten im Bundestag. Im Gegensatz zu SPD und Grünen haben die Linken konsequent im Bundestag gegen die Krisenpolitik der Bundesregierung gestimmt. Bei den Grünen liest sich die Unterstützung der Regierung wie eine Entschuldigung. Man habe nur widerwillig zugestimmt, um eine noch größere Krise zu vermeiden. Ich halte das Argument für widersinnig.
...
Wie auch bei den Grünen steht die makroökonomische Analyse unter ideologischem Vorbehalt. Auch ihr Programm ist hoffnungslos überfrachtet. Die Linken instrumentalisieren die Krise für ihre Forderung nach höheren Löhnen und Umverteilung. Die Lohnquote - der Anteil der Löhne am Bruttoinlandsprodukt - ist seit den siebziger Jahren in den meisten Industriestaaten zugunsten der Gewinne gefallen. Einer der Gründe dafür ist mit Sicherheit die Globalisierung, denn sie brachte mehr Lohnwettbewerb. Insofern kann man aus der Krise nicht eine Erhöhung der Löhne an sich fordern, höchstens eine Umverteilung der Löhne zwischen Ländern und einer global koordinierten Korrektur im Verhältnis zwischen Profiten und Löhnen. Wie das in der Praxis funktionieren soll, sagen uns die Linken nicht.
...
Und somit ist meine - sicher kontroverse - Schlussfolgerung aus fünf Wahlprogrammen: Aus makroökonomischer Sicht wäre eine rot-rot-grüne Koalition die beste Lösung und die einzige Variante, die eine Chance hätte, die Krise mit Erfolg zu bekämpfen. Schon allein deshalb, weil eine solche Konstellation eine andere Narrative der Wirtschaftspolitik bietet.

This is an interesting position: the Greens and the Left have the right crisis diagnosis, but they need the weight of the macroeconomically clueless SPD in order to make a viable (seats-wise) governing coalition.

Münchau says the Greens, Linke and AfD are the three parties that understand the crisis while the CDU/CSU, SPD and FDP are überfordert ("in over their head"). He has used that word before in economic commentary: Europe, unable to cope (FT.com, December 5, 2010)

Usually I stay clear of connotation-rich German words that have no real equivalent in other languages. Their purpose is to obfuscate. But there is one that describes the eurozone's crisis management rather well. It is überfordert. The nearest English translation is "overwhelmed", or "not on top of something", but those are not quite the same. You can be overwhelmed one day, and on top the next. Überfordert is as hopeless as Dante's hell. It has an intellectual and an emotional component. If you are it today, you are it tomorrow.
I am not saying that every policymaker in the eurozone is hopeless. There are a few exceptions. My point is that the system is überfordert, unable to cope. This inability has several dimensions. I have identified six.
...
The euro is currently on an unsustainable trajectory. The political choice is either to retreat into a corner, and hope for some miracle, or to agree a big political gesture, such as a common European bond. What I hear is that such a gesture will not happen, for a very large number of very small reasons. The system is genuinely überfordert.

And so it remains, nearly 3 years later.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 04:40:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Migeru:

This is an interesting position: the Greens and the Left have the right crisis diagnosis, but they need the weight of the macroeconomically clueless SPD in order to make a viable (seats-wise) governing coalition

Yes, and a pony too, please. The trouble with the SPD is that their election results are still too good to support a change. They need the educational effect of getting far less than 20% before they start to debate a red-red-green coalition. And by then it will be too late.

by Katrin on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 05:26:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The problem with Red-Red-Green is that the SPD would have half the votes in the coalition and so would insist on ruling it, thereby negating the better macroeconomics of it junior partners.

I mean, Peer Steinbrück, FFS!

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 05:52:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If the SPD really wanted red-red-green, they could let Steinbrück cash his pension and let someone else get elected chancellor. Gabriel probably. But the party doesn't want it, it's not just Steinbrück.

by Katrin on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 06:03:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, yes, yes. Münchau for chancellor, please.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Aug 26th, 2013 at 06:26:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There are many sensible German macroeconomists. They are either marginalised (and most nearing retirement) or in exile.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 03:07:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't mean that I was kinda expecting them to lead the way, but the cluelessness is awesome.

Might possibly have something to do with the contradiction in terms below:

"people capable of critical thinking, on the hard left."

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Mon Aug 26th, 2013 at 06:22:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You got an example of anyone capable of critical thinking anywhere else in the political spectrum?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 02:04:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

There seems to be non-rigid, non-doctrinaire people ready to question themselves all over the spectrum, except among the Austrians and the hard left. There are even some US conservatives who can do that, like David Frum.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 07:40:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Merkel Does The Devil's Work (4.00 / 5)

The point was somebody capable of critical thinking. Wagenknecht is most certainly in that category. And is clearly "non-rigid, non-doctrinaire", in the sense that she seems to be flying her own kite with some rather surprising opinions for someone on the "left of the left". There are examples of that throughout this diary and thread.

As for the capacity to "question oneself", I'd say there are examples everywhere, including on the hard left. However, politics is a tough show in which the actors are not allowed to show weakness, so the self-questioning doesn't get much of a public airing.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:47:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

"Sahra Wagenknecht, a highly intelligent and highly-educated woman"

Uh, yeah... Why are we even considering her a reasonable person? According to her Wikipedia page, she is a die-hard DDR-apologist.

"The Communist Platform (German: Kommunistische Plattform, KPF) was originally formed as a tendency of the PDS. It is less critical of German Democratic Republic than other groupings, and it upholds orthodox Marxist positions. A "strategic goal" of the KPF is "building a new socialist society, using the positive experiences of real socialism and to learn from mistakes" [46] Its primary leader is Sahra Wagenknecht"

What would we think of a person who talked about the "positive experiences of national socialism and to learn from mistakes"? Well, we wouldn't allow them in polite company, that's for sure. I've previously not really understood why so many in Germany are hostile to Die Linke - now I do.

And she seems to like the mad economy-wrecker in chief who makes Alan Greenspan look like an amateur: "She has expressed strong support for the rise of left-wing leaders in Latin America, such as Hugo Chávez."

Die Linke is something of a broad church, consisting of several overlapping and diverging tendencies. So why do we associate ourselves with the crazies?

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 06:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The intelligence, level of education, and reasonableness of a person are not determined by reference to your personal phobias.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 03:12:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't you think it's highly unfortunate that the party of which Münchau has this to say:

The Election program of the Left shows, on the Euro crisis, honestly and intelligence. Thus the party is far ahead of the big parties, and the ideal partner of the SPD and Greens

has fallen into the claws of people who sympathise with the successor state of Nazi Germany? There is a clear risk, already actualised in the German political reality, that these ideas will become tainted by association with people like Wagenknecht.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 10:40:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

the successor state of Nazi Germany

WTF, Starvid?

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 10:44:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]

After totalitarian Nazi Germany fell, one free German state arose from the ashes, and one totalitarian state - the moral and ideological successor, DDR.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 03:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Meh. I don't know how overrated the totalitarianness of the DDR was, but I do know that the freeness of the Bundesrepublik was rather severely so.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 03:40:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Die Linke is not the DDR (4.00 / 4)

And the DDR is not the third reich.

And now that we know about western intelligence services and what they do to our communications, I'm not so sure the DDR was a bad state, comparatively. At least everyone had a job.

I think maybe people on the liberal left, social democrats and the like, need to take a deep breath and realise their ideology is bankrupt, the only thing giving them successes in the past veing the pressure from real existing socialism in state form and the fear that put into Capital. Now that fear is gone, and we see how bankrupt the liberal left in Europe really is.

Kudos to Munchau, an honest man if nothing else, for calling a spade a spade.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 03:45:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Die Linke is not the DDR (4.00 / 5)

I think maybe people on the liberal left, social democrats and the like, need to take a deep breath and realise their ideology is bankrupt, the only thing giving them successes in the past being the pressure from real existing socialism in state form and the fear that put into Capital.

I'm not generally a fan of permitting effect to precede cause in my models of reality, and by the time the first world war rolled around the Danish social democrats had had the power to affect a months-long general strike for fifteen years. And had used that power to gain substantial concessions in terms of the right to strike and organize.

I think a more serious problem for the social democrats is that they need an active, credible domestic communist threat, or they go off script. And after the communist parties wedded themselves to what was even then quite obviously the losing side in the Great Game, it was all over bar the shouting.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 04:13:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Die Linke is not the DDR (none / 1)

Hm, but pre-wwI was there even a communist (or revolutionary socialist) organisation in Denmark? In Sweden there wasn't, the revolutionary socialists and reformist socialists was in the same unions and the same party.

So I think treating the soc-dems as something static over a hundred years are wrong.

Then the effect of the cold war and the communist bloc, I think was that the right by and large in the anglo world and western Europe (with exceptions) turned left and accepted soc-dem governments and social reforms. Without threatening civil war or coups.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 05:11:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Die Linke is not the DDR (none / 0)

Hm, but pre-wwI was there even a communist (or revolutionary socialist) organisation in Denmark? In Sweden there wasn't, the revolutionary socialists and reformist socialists was in the same unions and the same party.

Yes, they were organized around different unions.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Fri Aug 30th, 2013 at 06:25:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What evidence can you give us that the DDR followed on directly from Nazi ideology?

Do you even have an idea of what you are talking about?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 03:58:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think she is living in one of the two remaining successor states of Nazi Germany.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 12:19:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The successor state of Nazi Germany, if there was one, was Allied-occupied Germany.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 12:40:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, there was no direct successor state of Nazi Germany, the allies arrested the Flensburg governemtn and declared the lack of government as reason for prolonged occupation. As though the German question remained not quite settled until reunification I think I have seen both Germanies and post-war Austria has been treated as successor states, at leat until the Austrian rehabilitation in 1955.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 02:51:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's another possible answer: the German state was abolished and reestablished.

On the other hand, states of war remained, reparations were paid...

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 02:57:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the successor state of Nazi Germany

No, that would be the other Germany. The one where Die Alte Kameraden held high office well into the sixties and seventies, and still get together quite amiably to reminisce about the old times.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 01:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stasi Employed Nazis as Spies.

And of course, that never happened in the DDR...

"We decide who was a Nazi."

NSDAP members in the DDR.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 03:35:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I thought the moral successor of the Stasi was the CDU (Schäuble).

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 03:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Merkel Does The Devil's Work (4.00 / 6)

You're sort of making my point here: It's quite instructive to compare those lists - both in terms of length and in terms of what sort of offices we're talking about.

And if you're going to start on Gestapo agents that were turned, then we're going to be here all night, what with Paperclip and Doublecross and Gladio. Recruiting from the other side's spy agencies is standard practice in the cloak-and-dagger community. One may question the wisdom of this, but then one may question the wisdom of a lot of what goes on in that particular subculture.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 04:00:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Aha, three links that prove that some nazis actually were in positions of power in the GDR. To prove your weird little offensive theory you would now have to look at the equivalent in "free" West Germany. I recommend you take a very close look not only at military and spooks, but at the judiciary too.

Really, this sub-thread is unbelievable. A time-warp to cold war propaganda of the free west vs poor oppressed slaves in the "zone".

by Katrin on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 04:10:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

[Starvid's Rysskräck™ Technology]

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 04:12:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I mentioned your phobias before.

This is really just a subsection of Rysskräck.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 04:19:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Katrin's phobias?

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Aug 29th, 2013 at 04:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oops, apologies. Starvid's, obviously.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Fri Aug 30th, 2013 at 02:10:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Starvid's Work (4.00 / 2)

KPF is "building a new socialist society, using the positive experiences of real socialism and to learn from mistakes" [46] Its primary leader is Sahra Wagenknecht"
What would we think of a person who talked about the "positive experiences of national socialism and to learn from mistakes"?

Is the basis of the whole thread simply that Starvid revealed his own phobias on the basis of his own reading mistake?

Or should one take away that "real socialism" equates to "national socialism?"

Hugo Chavez is (was) the mad "economy-wrecker in chief" (sic)? Would that be globally, or just the nationalized component of Venezuela's fossil fuel industry?

"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." - Anaïs Nin

by Crazy Horse on Mon Sep 2nd, 2013 at 07:19:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Starvid's Work (none / 1)

Crazy Horse:

Or should one take away that "real socialism" equates to "national socialism?"

More that DDR is the moral equivalent of Nazi Germany. Or so I read it.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Sep 2nd, 2013 at 07:57:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]