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The only real alternative is a new party lead by a charismatic figure who can generate appeal and get the message out. For all his perceived faults Beppe Grillo has shown that this can be done on a significant scale. What we need are new leaders of new party/movements with some of Grillo's gifts but who ARE temperamentally and intellectually capable of governing.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Sun Aug 25th, 2013 at 03:21:03 PM EST
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Populism only works if the thing you're saying is actually popular, but supressed by the elite. German hard-money madness seems not to be an exclusivey elite opinion, but widespread among the German people as a whole.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Mon Aug 26th, 2013 at 06:25:18 PM EST
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Even so, a populist appeal could be based not on an argument about views on money but on how their wages have stagnated while the portion going to the top has increased, on how their 'sacrifice' has been squirreled away in Swiss banks by the rich while the bought and paid for politicians dream up reasons why documents showing who has what secret, untaxed, numbered Swiss account should not be used to go after those rich who, after all, make the contributions that enable the politicians to govern.

Then, after they have their attention, start undermining the hard money view. Point out that the Old Testament in several places advocates Jubilees and that when Jesus said "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" he was talking about money as well as other aspects of personal behavior. Ask them how, when the dragon has ALL the wealth, including theirs, in his hoard are the rest to get by, especially in old age. Ask why, if jobs, benefits and pensions are the first thing Greeks and Portuguese are asked to sacrifice, their own jobs, benefits and pensions will not follow suit after Greece and Portugal have been sucked dry.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:02:38 AM EST
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That is wishful thinking. The Left already does a tax the rich campaign. So do the Social Democrats. Running on tax increases is always an iffy position. They are doing it at a time when the budget is near a surplus. This is not going to work and the Social Democrats are already reversing. If you do populism in Germany it would be aimed at a breakup of the monetary union. Germans see their money not going to the filthy rich, but to the southerners.

You need to face the situation as it is and not like you want it to be. Hard money is a genuine national consensus in Germany. No likely government will have the votes to go against it.

The possible options are hard money or no Euro.

by oliver on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 11:57:21 AM EST
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The possible options are hard money or no Euro.
Which is why the hard money loonies (such as the AfD and others) are for no Euro.

Right.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:02:02 PM EST
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For the EU these are the only options. Germany will stay on hard money. As will any currency union Germany is a member of. It is simply no use harboring any hopes there.
by oliver on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:06:56 PM EST
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That is rather the problem.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:16:10 PM EST
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We can hear you whispering "And good thing too!" under your breath, you know. :-)
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:36:49 PM EST
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Pure projection! ;)
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:50:45 PM EST
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That doesn't make me wrong. Rejecting the message because you dislike the messenger isn't helpful.
by oliver on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 01:44:22 PM EST
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Are you demanding hard money?
by rifek on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 01:09:08 AM EST
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Migeru:
the hard money loonies (such as the AfD and others) are for no Euro

Well, yeah, because they see the Euro as soft money.

See "hard-left leader says government is overheating printing press".

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:16:40 PM EST
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Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:18:52 PM EST
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I see the euro as fake money.  It is supposed to be a sovereign currency, but it hasn't a sovereign behind it.  That is the real euro crisis.
by rifek on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 01:13:02 AM EST
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The Euro is part of a deliberate programme to abolish Sovereigns everywhere. Reshaping Fiscal Policies In Europe: Enforcing Austerity, Attacking Democracy (11/02/2013 BY HUGO RADICE, Social Europe Journal)
These proposals, when fully implemented, will not only enforce a permanent regime of fiscal austerity, but also further remove macroeconomic policy from democratic control. For these reasons they need to be vigorously fought right across Europe. But if readers in the UK imagine that they are not affected, since we are not in the Eurozone, they need to think again, for the structural deficit has also become the preferred fiscal target of Chancellor Osborne, backed by the Office of Budget Responsibility.  While the most influential economic think tanks, the Institute for Fiscal Studies and the National Institute for Economic and Social research, have begun to challenge the Coalition's austerity policies, they have not as yet repudiated the use of the structural deficit as a fiscal target. So what exactly is the structural deficit, and why is it such a danger?

...

What lies behind this extraordinary restriction to be placed on the democratic right of national parliaments to determine fiscal policy? In essence, it is the politics of depoliticisation. European business and political élites want to avoid any return to `Keynesian' active macroeconomic management, which they see as inherently liable to capture by popular interests. During the neoliberal era, they have therefore increasingly sought to insulate economic policy decisions from democratic control, by handing over monetary policy to independent central banks; subordinating spending departments to Treasury / Finance Ministry control; and imposing fiscal targets. This drive has been supported by a wide-ranging ideological offensive, centred on the supposed virtues of `efficient' markets, supply-side competitiveness measures, flexible labour markets, tax cuts for the rich, privatisation, and free movement across borders of trade and capital (but not labour).

In Britain, mainstream political scientists have framed these changes in the wider narrative of public choice between market and state as modes of economic regulation, on which distinct `varieties of capitalism' have evolved. They assume that there is broad agreement on all sides as to society's core values and goals, and that the choice of a given variety (with specified policy institutional and practices) is made on the basis of their effectiveness.  `Depoliticisation', in this narrative, is about a shift from state to market.



Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 02:15:10 AM EST
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The Left already does a tax the rich campaign.

As if tax rates were the only lever! How about "They are squirreling away what they made by not giving workers a raise in Swiss bank accounts and not even paying taxes on it!" ?? How is that soft money?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 12:56:47 PM EST
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The Garman body politic wants to protect the return on savings (of the older generation) even at the cost of a lost generation of young people.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 01:07:02 PM EST
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I didn't realize that it was the return on savings that caused some of the older generation to put their money in numbered Swiss accounts. Silly me. How I wish the Fed would set at least a 2% rate on some of its bonds. What a concept! Return on savings.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 09:06:31 PM EST
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You cannot make a campaign against tax reduction schemes involving foreign countries while remaining pro-Euro. It is too fine a distinction to campaign on.
by oliver on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 01:50:22 PM EST
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So it is necessary to tolerate tax evasion on a massive scale in savings denominated in Swiss Franks in order to remain pro-Euro. This has truly been an enlightening discussion.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 09:08:17 PM EST
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This cannot is especially regarding the recent crumbling of switzerland as a tax haven a quite dubious claim.
by IM on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 03:06:54 AM EST
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I wish you would read what I actually wrote. I said you cannot campaign on it alone. Something can be done. It just doesn't win you an election. The German Social Democrats did kill the tax amnesty treaty with Switzerland. There has been no effect in the numbers.
by oliver on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 03:20:04 AM EST
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Now you are shifting the goalposts. That is very much not what you wrote. You claimed that is impossible to campaign on tax evasion, tax harmonization etc. without campaigning against the euro. And that is obviously not true.
by IM on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 03:51:19 AM EST
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Hey, Schäuble does it at the EcoFin...

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 04:02:55 AM EST
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The German Social Democrats tried. Their candidate for chancellor tried even while he still was a minister. It didn't work.
by oliver on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 04:12:47 PM EST
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So can you tell us what are the forces in German society that consider the Euro synonymous with tax evasion to foreign havens?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 04:17:48 PM EST
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If you watch the video in this thread you'll see Sahra Wagennecht's hobby horse of tax harmonisation, and her mentions of Luxembourg, Ireland and the Netherlands. Of course you can campaign on it, especially in Germany. Everyone does it.

But since the need to rein in tax competition is close to a national consensus in Germany there isn't much to gain from it electorally.

Finance is the brain [tumour] of the economy

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 03:47:27 AM EST
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But pointing out to the many that their foregone wage increases are happily residing un-taxed in numbered Swiss bank accounts might create some doubt about the wisdom and fairness of the current policies - who it really benefits and at whose cost.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Aug 28th, 2013 at 12:54:18 PM EST
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Hitler and Mussolini were charismatic and got "the message" out.  Robespierre, Napoleon, Franco, scores of others (Reagan and Thatcher, snort).  The man on horseback is the bane of any reason-based civilization, not the savior.
by rifek on Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 01:05:45 AM EST
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