Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.
None of your rant is even remotely connected to anything I've said. Where did I say anything to promote fractional reserve banking or gold hoarding?

I don't care how markets work, because markets don't work. That's Polanyi's point, and it's very much the problem.

So I don't care whether people use gold, bitcoins, joules, or bags full of rabbit pelts to do their accounting.

None of it matters, except as a bit of side entertainment. What matters is how people treat each other, whether social relationships are primarily predatory and exploitative, or primarily collaborative, and how - if accounting systems are used - they either hide and justify, or reveal and challenge the nature of social relationships.

That is all.

Now, when you're done hyperventilating, read what I said, read Polanyi and Graeber, and perhaps we can have an intelligent non-theological discussion about this.

Because right now you're carrying on like a priest who has had his faith challenged, not like someone who's capable of rational argument.

Anyway. Specifically:

Does a metre have backing? Does a kilogramme have backing?

The metre is referenced to physical constants. But the process used to calculate the metre as a unit of length is an entirely arbitrary social convention.

The kg is referenced to a not particularly stable test mass. Even if it were also referenced to physical constants - which is proposed, and may happen soon - the calculation would still be arbitrary.

So yes, both units only exist because they're backed by cultural convention, not because they're objective and independent of convention.

Clearly mass and length exist independent of convention. But that's not the same thing at all.

And trading in metres would be ridiculous.

it's actually possible to measure most kinds of value by reference to a unit of energy in a meaningful way.

No it isn't, because units of energy are also an arbitrary social convention.

In fact energy is a particularly bad way to measure anything, because it comes in so many different forms of different practical usefulness that you'll never find a scientist saying 'a joule' without also specifying, even if only implicitly by context, what kind of energy it's a joule of, and by what mechanisms it can be transformed to and from matter and/or other forms of energy.

If you get irradiated by a slew of 130Gev gamma particles or struck by lightning, do you suddenly become rich in your scheme?

Of course you don't. Not only will you still die horribly, the idea is a nonsense.

So clearly you're not talking about units of actual energy at all. You're talking about bits of metaphorical paper that can be traded and happen to be denominated in energy units - just as they could be denominated in ounces of gold, or casino CFD contracts, or commodity future contracts, or pounds sterling, or dollars, or bitcoins, or renminbi.

You've actually come right out and said these things can't even be redeemed for real energy.

So what are they really worth? No one knows until they try to trade them.

Where? On a market.

And there you go. Same old, same old.

And then you accuse us of not understanding what you're on about.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2013 at 05:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Er - total thread context fail. Never mind.

However - I mostly agree with Thomas. (Which is scary enough in itself)

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Sat Sep 7th, 2013 at 08:38:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Where? On a market.

And there you go. Same old, same old.

markets are a manifestation of consciousness, not the other way round.

till we change consciousness we will always think cutthroat when we hear the word 'market'.

it's been so long since it was anything else!

when i see the pit-traders armwaving and shrieking into three cellphones at once do i think 'this looks healthy, humans working hard at making a better world'?

i think bedlam. house of horrors. cacophony. babel. pigs in a trough.

sorry pigs!

humans all looking at huge screens and screaming over each other. who in their right mind can think in their wildest of fantasies that this is how humans should live and trade?

and then when the bell rings on wall st and you see those assclowns smug as a bug in a rug all disjointing their arms from patting each other on the back so much.

going to markets used to be fun, people met many of their needs there, lots to see and learn even if you weren't all about making moolah as prime driver.

what they have become... well the tail has 'bout wagged the brains right out the dog's ears, juvenile dementia as way-of-life.

hard wires crossed and shorting, the robot lumbers on leaving people and countries stomped in its wake, so that these baboons can caper in their hollow, while fat cats preen and strut.

gah, beam me up scotty. if this is the trailer, who wants to see the film?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Sun Sep 8th, 2013 at 06:10:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There are different manifestations of energy - in particular, electromagnetic energy, work or heat - and as many different forms and sub-forms (eg gasoline, natural gas, fuel oil) of energy currency.

Each of these will vary in price by reference to a standard unit of energy, both relative to each other, and also with the relative locations of currency issuer and user and value judgement of the user.

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson

by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Thu Sep 12th, 2013 at 01:53:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]