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Democracy in work...of course USA/EU style democracy...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/15/kiev-s-protestors-put-on-uniforms.html

Kiev's Independence Square is becoming a military recruitment center, with activists eagerly enlisting as volunteer soldiers. Anna Nemtsova reports from the scene.

Kiev's Independence Square - the Maidan so immensely important to the new government here -- is changing all the time. And while most of the world's attention has been focused on Crimea, some of the developments among the crowd in Kiev are decidedly ominous.
...But there are also men in black - precisely the kind of people Moscow gleefully brands as fascists to terrify the ethnic Russian populations of Crimea and in the east of the country. Members of the Right Sector nationalist paramilitary group  have occupied three buildings around the Maidan square over the last few days. New recruits for their forces lined up outside the former office of Kiev Star, a cell phone company and militia activists carried bags full of weapons into the guarded door. The Dnipro Hotel is with the Right Sector's men dressed like down-market storm troopers.


Giving wepons around like if they give lollies is going to backfire on what ever so called "government" is or will be in power.
And with Right sector everywhere very visible with wepons good luck to Ukraine fair and free election on 25th of May.
As much of Ukraine that Putin can get out of the reach of these lunatics the better for people there...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 16th, 2014 at 08:50:52 AM EST
more...

Violence has not left the Maidan altogether. On several occasions drunk or frustrated campers loosed a few rounds from their guns and blew up fireworks in the middle of the night. "Once, they wounded a suspicious character and another time there was a conflict between Right Sector and self-defense forces that led to shootings," Pavlenko said.


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 16th, 2014 at 08:59:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, weapons in the hands of militias, loyal primarily to their immediate leaders, usually spells trouble. But did the government start arming volunteers before or after Putin made his move in Crimea and ordered military exercises just east of Ukraine? It looks like both sides are scrambling to put the blame entirely on each other, and taking a course of action, which only drives them further apart and escalates the crisis even more. I don't think that anybody in their right mind truly believes that Yanukovich can return to Kiev, assume his presidential powers back, and start implementing the deal signed on February 21. Putin may keep insisting that the new Ukrainian government is illegitimate, but Russia doesn't seem to be able to do much to about it, beyond brute force.  If a military solution doesn't top the list of choices for Putin, his administration has to engage with the authorities in Kiev. Yatsenyuk looks like a "less bad" option, compared to the alternatives. Pushing too hard only increases risk of radicals gaining the upper hand in the government and on the streets.
by aquilon (albaruthenia at gmail dot com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2014 at 04:54:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
West Ukraine has a pro-Austerity government. All Putin really has to do is stand back, pop some popcorn and watch it come apart.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Sun Mar 16th, 2014 at 06:02:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Great conclusion...
He just need to sit and wait for apple to fall.
But I assume they (west or better said Americans ...remember "fuck the EU") will not leave him alone and they will do everything to provoke military intervention so that they can point to Russia as an assessor.Same old story ...there will be staged massacres and killings as we all witnessed in ex YU and elsewhere...They know Putin's blood will boil and expect him to make a mistake.We'll see if he can avoid it. They say " do not play chess with Russians" but it's hard when other side is cheating.
Americans/west hoped for quick resolution of this situation in Ukraine but...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 16th, 2014 at 08:33:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Aggressor of course...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Sun Mar 16th, 2014 at 11:10:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And watch everybody blame Russia for this.....
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 at 02:08:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Everybody who speaks English, yes.

If I were Putin, I would happily make the bet that the locals are sufficiently aware of who is causing them pain to take rational countermeasures.

Of course, the locals may decide that "rational countermeasures" means an overtly Nazi government. But I'm not convinced that that would be actively detrimental to Russia's interests.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 at 03:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, the locals may decide that "rational countermeasures" means an overtly Nazi government. But I'm not convinced that that would be actively detrimental to Russia's interests.

To the extent that they emphasize the 'National' in National-Socialist' they might be less harmful to the interests of average Ukrainian citizens than the pro-EU/pro-western 'leaders' prepared to enter into agreements with the EU. And, to the extent that they acted on the interests of the average citizen Putin may well find them easier to deal with. He could then play the 'Fellow Slav' card.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 at 09:55:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
People said similar things about Hitler before 1939.

Of course, presently the problem is that both sides teem with fascists and the annexation of Crimea resembles the Anschluss of Austria.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 at 05:36:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Since the 90s, people regularly had a choice of "bad versus worse" in elections. Now we have to choose between fascisms. Ingenious.
by das monde on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 at 05:55:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The corollary is that a substantial fraction of swing voters thinks "it can't get worse than this", but will choose with great certainty guys who are certain to make it worse.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 at 05:59:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Less thoughtful voters often chose the party whose emotional response to issues most resonates with their own, regardless of the logic of where that response might lead. And in above comments I am hardly endorsing fascist parties, but rather am agreeing with Jake that some might be easier for Putin to deal with than others that might be on offer. Nor am I calling Putin a great hero, though he does seem to be the smartest guy in the room at present. And how often has the smartest guy in the room prevailed -- to the detriment of all?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 at 12:20:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And, to the extent that they acted on the interests of the average citizen Putin may well find them easier to deal with. He could then play the 'Fellow Slav' card.

I was thinking more along the line that an overtly Nazi government in Ukraine is eventually going to fuck up and create a casus belli for Russia. And then Putin can get to be the national hero who liberates Kiev from the Nazis for the second time in less than one century.

- Jake

Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.

by JakeS (JangoSierra 'at' gmail 'dot' com) on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 at 02:23:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That too, though many in Western Ukraine might not wish to be rescued.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 at 02:32:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Some of them may not have wanted to be rescued the first time either.
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Tue Mar 18th, 2014 at 02:35:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that they are feeling 'liberated' for the first time since WW II?

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Mar 19th, 2014 at 09:59:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the governments militia is the same groups that formed a militia on Maidan, so in a sense it started forming before the revolution.

My main question is where the Ukrainian military stands. Seems unclear.

What Putin has said is that the Ukrainian parliament is legitimate, but that Yanukovich remains the legitimate president. Which means that his ministers has contact with Ukrainian ministers, while Putin has no direct contact as there is no elected president in Kiev.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 at 08:05:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What Putin has said is that the Ukrainian parliament is legitimate, but that Yanukovich remains the legitimate president. Which means that his ministers has contact with Ukrainian ministers, while Putin has no direct contact as there is no elected president in Kiev.
Puting is a first-rate troll.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 at 08:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does this mean that Yanukovich is also the legitimate president of Crimea? Will Putin act accordingly?
by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Mar 17th, 2014 at 08:29:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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