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No political in history books or, heaven beware, us nationalism either?

"The history books" - charming.

The destruction of the self-government of Kossovo was a fact and I watched it back then in real time. It was a internal yugoslavian matter, destroying the balance of Yugoslavia.

by IM on Mon Feb 16th, 2015 at 05:07:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You mean the same balance that produced even more severe repression in Kosovo in the early 1980's when Milosevic was still in law school or whatever?

Tito died in 1980. What followed was predictable, and predicted. Except maybe to those perpetually and irresponsibly naive, which is my cheif criticism here.

Of course, this makes me a Milosevic lover. In the same way, I suppose, that AJP Taylor is called a Hitler lover by some equally naive people.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Mon Feb 16th, 2015 at 06:40:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think you both miss the 80ies destruction of the Yugoslav economy with IMF and "reforms" and all. Though that was the US, so I am not at all sure were this fits into your discussion.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Mon Feb 16th, 2015 at 02:56:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tito died in 1980. What followed was predictable, and predicted.

But in  this case the famous "recognition§ had no influence on events anyway.

by IM on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:05:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Redstar is not wrong in pointing out that in suppressing Kosovo, you could go back at least to the bloody repression of the 1981 protests in Kosovo: the elimination of intra-Serbian autonomy doesn't suffice as the start of war or even the start of dissolution. (The Gazimestan speech, on the other hand, came close to a declaration of war, or at least a declaration of intransigent fightr for self-interest against the other Yugoslav republics.) You should have noted instead that, even if 1991 be the starting date, the Ten-Day War was months before Germany's recognition.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 07:54:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That speech and the suppression of the independent administration started the dissolution and the civil wars. That was obvious even back then.

"You should have noted instead that, even if 1991 be the starting date, the Ten-Day War was months before Germany's recognition."

Why? I didn't caim teh war started with recognition. The facts are obvious after all.

by IM on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 07:58:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That speech and the suppression of the independent administration started the dissolution and the civil wars.

That's a way too cavalier summary of the events between March 1989 and June 1991. To make that claim, there would have to been near-continuous civil war during that period, but even the (not yet fighting) paramilitaries appeared in late 1990 only and hostilities started in March 1991.

Why?

Because it would have been a valid argument against redstar's position, obviously. 1989 as the starting date of the civil war is most definitely not standard history,  but you don't need that to disprove redstar.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:17:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"1989 as the starting date of the civil war is most definitely not standard history,"

Oh come on. That is as close to standard history as it is going to get.

What is your interpretation? That the dissolution of Yugoslaiva started in Slovenia and serb politics had nothing to do with it?

by IM on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:21:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actualaly it was feared in Slovenia that an "anti-bureaucratic revolution, that is Milosevic takeover could happen there too.
by IM on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:25:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As in here:

proto civil war in december 19889

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rally_of_Truth

by IM on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:27:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope, standard history says 1991:

Yugoslav Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Yugoslav Wars were ethnic conflicts fought from 1991 to 2001 on the territory of former Yugoslavia.

Every civil war obviously has non-immediate causes and background, and how far back in time you follow those depends on the historian. I note that by referencing the "anti-bureaucratic revolution" in another comment, you already followed it back to 1986.

If you are curious about my personal interpretation of the events, I think even with the bad preconditions – the loss of Tito as a symbolic connecting figure (a Croat fighting WWII with mostly Serb supporters), existing nationalist movements reaching into the top ranks, and a federal make-up giving structure to rather than mitigating conflict –, for the total escalation, the specific ambitions and style of power of the leaders was crucial. Above all Milo's tendency to attempt to grab more power with an ever firmer grip but losing even more of it slipping through his fingers: a more intelligent supreme leader wannabe would have realised that it's not good to have everyone against him at the same time. But several others bear responsibility for not attempting to wait longer and play for Milo's eventual overthrow and further the escalation one way or another, above all Tuđman, with his de-Serbification campaign and his little deal with Milo regarding Bosnia (March 1991!). Among foreign meddlers, in addition to the IMF, the USA, Germany and Russia, I could mention Hungary's first democratically elected government which secretly sent a large cache of arms to Tuđman's government in late 1990.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 09:23:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is there a HD Genscher Strasse in your neighbourhood too?

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill
by r------ on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:34:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"This was followed by the mass replacement of opposing communist leaders in the provinces, called the "anti-bureaucratic revolution". Many Albanians were killed in March 1989 when demonstrations against the new constitution were violently suppressed by Serbian security forces. By June 1989, the atmosphere in Kosovo was calm but tense"

Thta was the timeline. Babbling about early 1980s, there after all no civil war was staretd, is irrelevant in that context.

by IM on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:01:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The situation in June 1989 was exactly like after the bloody clampdown in 1981: repression successful. The civil war started well after, for which you needed the conflict with the other republics. It doesn't help your position to dismiss arguments as "babbling".

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No it wasn't. the other republics couldn't accept the take over of the votes of the provinces by Serbia, leading to dissolution. I see no hidden german hand here, do you?

And yes, deflecting form the situation in 1989/1990/1991 by talking about the eraly eighties isn't much of an argument

A situation starting to develop in mid 1989 was not caused by something happening in december 1991.

by IM on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:10:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The 1981 events were triggered by Kosovan demands for statehood, something hardly irrelevant to the subsequent elimination of autonomy. For Milo's power grab within Yugosavia, the takeover of his supporters in the republic of Montenegro is just as relevant than the two autonomy regions (the first of which fell in 1988 already in the Yogurt Revolution). I don't understand what you mean by the other republics "not accepting" the takeovers: they took active part in the Presidency until March 1991 at least.

I still don't get why you're so hung up on March 1989 when June 1991 already destroys redstar's argument.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 08:35:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...in the EU - you need to go back to pre - unification Germany EU logic.

Once you go there you understand.

Timing is everything.

I suppose, in a more perfect world, Gysi is chancellor and Redstar not only isn't Germanophobe, but is busy learning German and sick of the ball - less french among whom he has lived for years.

But hey, you go to war with the Germany you have,  not the one you wished you have.

The Hun is always either at your throat or at your feet. Winston Churchill

by r------ on Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 09:00:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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