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I talked about the loan and not the reparations because the first is pertinent to the current situation and is much more easy to defend in an international court. So regardless of the merit of the reparation claims, and the fact that today the Chair of the Greek Parliament announced the creation of a parliamentary committee to demand both, I think that the loan especially should be requested.

If the general idea is that past debts should be paid always, regardless of government changes, then either the German government pays up or it doesn't demand that others do. The 1940s isn't that far away. It is frequent that countries pay off debts incurred a century ago.

As for the loan itself, this is what it is all about according to the renowned German historian Hagen Fleischer, a man who is one of the foremost authorities on the Nazi occupation of Greece and the Greek Civil war:

...it's important in this case to make a distinction between reparation payments for war crimes and repayments of so-called Besatzungsanleihe: monthly loans demanded from the Greek government in 1942-44 to pay for the maintenance costs of the German army in Greece and further military activity in the Mediterranean, even delivering food from starving Greece to Rommel's "Afrika-Korps". In early 1945, in the final days of the Third Reich, a group of high-ranking German economists calculated this "German debt (Reichsschuld) to the Greek state" to amount to 476m Reichsmarks, which would be roughly €10bn today.

Compared with the highly emotionally charged issue of wartime reparations, this debt is relatively free of moralistic baggage. It could - and should - form the basis for talks about the foundation of a "future fund", a foundation dedicated to a joint rehabilitation of a "shared" history and the financing of a symbolic infrastructure project.

This would however require a major change of attitude on Germany's behalf. Only Berlin has the power to open talks about a historic consolidation with Greece. Until then, we continue to exist with an absurd situation where democratically elected German postwar governments of all colours continue to be in denial about the existence of this debt, which was officially recognized even by the Nazi regime.



The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Mon Feb 23rd, 2015 at 05:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
As an aside, people are still being prosecuted for Nazi war crimes.

So 'It was a long time and doesn't matter any more' is hardly a - literal - get out of jail free card.

But the real problem with the loan argument is that it attacks the entire foundation of German self-regard as a creditor nation, and undermines German racist views about lazy southern beggars.

Some squealing about that is only to be expected.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 05:33:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not the real problem is that overturning the post war settlement is not a good idea. Would make the whole founding idea of the EU obsolete.
by IM on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 06:08:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The founding idea of the EU was implicitly sacrificed by the compromises that led to Germany's participation in the EMU. Implicitly, because the continuation of the social programs so important early in the EU's history became contingent on the forbearance of the German Government, which vanished along with Helmut Kohl. The collapse of '08 just pulled the trigger on a loaded and aimed gun.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 11:49:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
you are making the point that:

Greece's solidarity and generocity towards Germany was a contributor to the "whole founding idea of the EU" whereas the mantra that "lazy Greeks should not expect neither solidarity nor generocity..." must be one of the pilars for "our common European future".

Fuck me senseless!

by Euroliberal on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 11:52:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No I don't make that point. That are you, putting words in my mouth. Trust me on this: If I would think "lazy greeks", I would say it.
by IM on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 12:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
..it's important in this case to make a distinction between reparation payments for war crimes and repayments of so-called Besatzungsanleihe

Thta is nonsens, whatever the guy says. As he himself clearly explains that was very much a part of war damages, in other words a repasration matter.

And to underscore the point:

", and the fact that today the Chair of the Greek Parliament announced the creation of a parliamentary committee to demand both, I think that the loan especially should be requested."

It is the same matter and this recently invented distinction is spurious.

" The 1940s isn't that far away. It is frequent that countries pay off debts incurred a century ago.

seventy years. And no, that isn't frequent at all. or obvious reasons

by IM on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 06:06:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is not recently invented. The two have been distinct issues for as long as I remember. In this case the then legal gvt of Germany officially acknowledged that it took a loan from Greece at the time of the loan. The damages incurred by the occupation is a completely different issue.
American war loans to Britain were fully repaid in 2006. Haiti was paying its "independence debt" to France 140 years after its imposition. Etc. I'm sure that it's not that hard to find international sovereign loans that are being paid back after 70 years

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom - William Blake
by talos (mihalis at gmail dot com) on Tue Feb 24th, 2015 at 07:26:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

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