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Of course it is.
This kind of unexplained blanket dismissal is unfortunately typical of your debating style.
What arguments would Germany put forward to explain why this time is completely different?
This has nothing, but absolutely nothing with the Second World War or reparations or whatever. And this sort of nationalistic theatrics - "O look, nazis!" won't help Greece a jot.
There is a post war settlement and we can quiblle how old it is but the last part is at least 20 years old. To untie it would be the worst idea in post war european history.
Isn't that obvious?
Schäuble insists that "pacta sunt servanda". Yet treaty obligations may be waived or redefined, and there is no shame in recalling past examples to underline the fact. In particular, recalling that, in the postwar years, there were two plans for Germany. One, promoted by Morgenthau, was the utter punishment of Germany by the destruction of the industrial economy and a return to agrarianism. The other, which won out, was the re-establishment of an industrial economy by means of debt forgiveness and an economic aid programme. The West German "economic miracle" of the 1950s was built on that.
It is not "nationalistic blabbing" to wish that Germans would remember those facts somewhat more clearly than, we are told, they remember hyperinflation in 1923.
And I could point out that the so called Morgenthau plan was partly executed. And reparations were quite massive int he east.
And as far as debts cut are concerned: Greece got one. Is that already too far away, but 1941 still relevant?
"They started it" isn't a good excuse, but the moralistic bleating from the German government about other peoples' debts does rather invite it.
And doesn't justify idiotic stunts
Or do you want to heighten the contradictions?
What is so complicated about that position?
"Apart from turning a reasonable discussion that might even be "
That is your standard of a reasonable discussion? Full of nationalism and bad history and accusations of bad faith?
I haven't said anything about Greece entering the euro with false numbers (irrelevant) or greek defaults (irrelevant) or the Morgenthau plan (irrelevant).
If we could for once discuss what my acrtual point was. that would be helpful.
"that are simply insults to other peoples' intelligence,"
And o so clever movie quotes aren't much of an argument.
I'm not going through this thread amassing quotes from you that are insults to other users' attempts to discuss reasonably. They are all there for everyone to see.
Please go and read ETiquette.
You protest too much. What's nationalist babbling is to dismiss the debt of your own country and ignore that arguments for its validity aren't raised in the war creditor country only.
the so called Morgenthau plan was partly executed
So what? It wasn't fully executed, and something else was fully executed instead and led to the Wirtschaftswunder, which should be the blueprint for Greece now.
And as far as debts cut are concerned: Greece got one.
And so does Germany. What about agreeing a mutual debt forgiveness and then follow it up with a Merkel Plan? *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
I find bringing up this forced loan counterproductive, because it appeals to nationalisms on both sides. Surely the spirit of the 1953 debt conference, which was that peace in Europe is only possible by cooperation and prosperity for all of Europe, is what we want to connect to, and not nationalism and mirrored nationalism and counter-mirrored nationalism or whatever.
Could somebody connect Schäuble to that? Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
Though there is this.
Are you now surprised at my answer? I don't know what your question has to do with my post.
Your approach favours jingoistic responses (even if that is not your intention), mine favours class-centred politics.
Hayek has won. Welcome to freedom.
And it won't help you with debt hold by the ECB or the EFSF anyway.
Given my interactions here today, I am quite frankly stunned that some of the basics of the Greek debt problem are not known in Germany. For instance, how Greece entered the euro. And, whether Greece has really been in default over the years.
Now, I have yet another revelation. That the conversion of Greek loans in 2012 is not understood either.
You did.
Yes other countries will be happy to relitigate world war two. A slpendid idea.
Take the war and morality completely out of it.
Germany was loaned an amount of money from Greece back in 1942.
Whatever was happening at the time is irrelevant.
The money taken was quantifiable.
Nice. statute of limitation, then.
"Migeru already made this point but it's not getting through."
What point?
When you say there is a statute of limitations on loans, do you believe international law on this matter agrees with you?
There should be ways. Closure is important in law.
Even that we can argue about. There quite different numbers thrown around. propably depending on the interest rate calculation.
But I don't that matters. That is not the point herew and you know it.
Take for instance the constantly repeated mantra in Germany about Greece's history as a defaulter. It boggles the brain to imagine such renditions about Greek economic history, while simultaneously there is the constant refrain about not bringing up the German past. Either pasts are relevant or they are not.
Geithner's comments about the intention to punish Greece all along has now become common wisdom in Greece.
Paul mason spoke to the moderates in Syriza over the weekend who said that they were dead wrong about the possibility of keeping Greece in the euro.
I think Varoufakis is likely to the very fringe of his party in terms of his sense that Greece needs to stay in the euro, and if you read Varoufakis's writing on currency conversion for other countries (i.e. Scotland or Argentina) then you know he actually has a withering view of Europe.
I am entirely convinced that the body politic in Greece (outside To Potami, the tatters of Pasok, and ND) is now ready for exiting the euro. And I think the people are there too.
It was very important for Syriza to be seen as absolutely against Grexit.
The idea has to be established in the public minds that, when it happens, the govt did everything it could do. The general sense that I got from Greek voters (who formerly supported ND or PASOK or were now in To Potami's camp) was that they believed Varoufakis and Tsipras wanted out of the euro.
These sensibilities have to be managed. They don't change instantly.
Not to mention the fact that Greeks for the first time saw their politicians as fighting for them, which actually does address the gov'ts popularity.
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-greece-bailout-20150223-story.html
Nevertheless, Tsipras' popularity continues to soar, according to recent polls. Weekend polls found that more than 80% of respondents said they were supportive of the negotiating stance, while 86% said they felt his leadership had inspired a new sense of national pride. A separate poll found that Tsipras' popularity rating had risen by 42 percentage points in a month, reaching 87%, the highest of any Greek politician since the restoration of democracy in 1974.
Weekend polls found that more than 80% of respondents said they were supportive of the negotiating stance, while 86% said they felt his leadership had inspired a new sense of national pride.
A separate poll found that Tsipras' popularity rating had risen by 42 percentage points in a month, reaching 87%, the highest of any Greek politician since the restoration of democracy in 1974.
Seems to be a tad superficial, the damage.
- Jake Friends come and go. Enemies accumulate.
However, if Greece is kicked out of the eurozone and Germany insist on being repaid and uses the legal structure of the EU to try to collect, then I think bringing up legal claims against Germany might be necessary in order to remain in the EU. Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
It is a point being made to show that a Greek exit from the eurozone really does mean unrecoverable debts for the rest of Europe.
Beyond that, Citigroup has argued that the removal of ELA automatically creates a legal liability for Europe that absolves Greece of any debt.
I would also point out that the debt conversion in 2012 changed Greek debt from being Athens based, without any collective action clauses, to London debt that required a % of creditor agreement in the changing of any terms.
Now, that is called an argument. Perhaps you should try it too.
" What's nationalist babbling is to dismiss the debt of your own country "
That is just nonsense. I don't dismiss anything.
And special pleading: You don't argue for hungarian reparations, do you?
"What about agreeing a mutual debt forgiveness"
mutual? Do you remenber that there are a lot of other european creditors, even if we ignore the IMF? You can't really try the "Look, nazis!" trick on them.
Very feebly. The industrial apparatus was left intact.
reparations were quite massive int he east.
Well, precisely, and that's a major difference with fortunate West Germany.
Many people quote the haircut to Greek debt without realizing that the debt was converted, not eliminated. The net benefit to Greece was a 7% reduction.
Or has the War of '40 been retconned?
It would be nice if, instead of another knee-jerk reaction, you would follow the actual discussion and notice that this isn't about reparations but wartime loans. *Lunatic*, n. One whose delusions are out of fashion.
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