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Since this gives a better negotiation position to the Greek government, I would say it also decreases the risk of Greece being forced out.

Nobody has argued against this, so I guess I had a point, even if it was mostly arguing by gut feeling.

To try to go beyond gut feeling, lets look at the main actors.

Eurogroup majority. Goals: continued austerity, not losing face. Tools: threat of Grexit.

Greek government. Goals: ending austerity, staying in power. Tools: power of Greek state aparatus.

If the power of Greek state aparatus makes the threat of Grexit less useful, I would say the best option for the eurogroup majority would be to makes noise to save face and not try to kick Greece out.

I must say that the last months actions has made it clear that my view of what it means to kick Greece out was incomplete.

Means to kick a country out of a currency:

  1. Withdraw backing for state debt - done long ago
  2. Not accept state bonds as security for banks loaning from central bank - done in janury
  3. Liquidity support to banks - not gone yet
  4. Drum up bank run - on hold for now

Does the list go on? What could ECB and or the eurogroup do if it really, really wants Greece to start using something otehr then euros?
by fjallstrom on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 08:26:18 AM EST
What could ECB and or the eurogroup do if it really, really wants Greece to start using something other then euros?

Greece could adopt currency controls and the Greek Central Bank could seize all of the Euros it could and then use these as the backing for an alternate, internal currency, electronic, paper or both. That is the system on which much of the US banking system operated from the US Civil War until the Fed came on line in 1913. Then the ECB, IMF and Eurogroup member states could actively facilitate 'market attacks' on this new currency to drive it away from par with the Euro, which would not be a bad thing for the Greek economy unless they managed to get the currency to appreciate.

Meanwhile Greece would formally remain in all of the various governing boards in the EU and Eurogroup and be able to vote and veto as appropriate. They could make life miserable, if not as miserable, for other states as well as for Greece. At some point the Russian card might well get played, and just blocking certain actions that adversely affect Russia would really upset some in the Eurogroup as well as the USA.  
 

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 09:51:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No longer clearing transfers with the Greek central bank would be pretty final.

To add to your list:

Eurogroup: Tools: Capital controls, see Cyprus. Goals: Excluding outsiders from power, crushing of the Class enemy.

Commission: Grabbing as much power from the Eurogroup as possible. Tools: Bureaucratic infighting. Collaboration with the Class Enemy. Everything else that can be done without a budget.

Not only are Syrizia political outsiders, this would be the first leftwing government in Europe since [fill in once an example comes to mind]. I'm sure the reactionaries will go to extremes if they fail to force a surrender/betrayal.

by generic on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 12:32:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Not only are Syrizia political outsiders, this would be the first leftwing government in Europe since [fill in once an example comes to mind].
Remember that Cyprus had a Communist government at the time of the 2003 bank crisis and imposition of capital controls... but Communist and all it was fully on board with the island's "offshore hedge fund" business model.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 12:48:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I remembered actually, but as you say Cyprus was hardly known for its socialist economic policy. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the Euro ministers didn't remember until they decided to ground it into the dust.
by generic on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 03:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Cyprus was the banker to too many Russian oligarchs. Obviously a legitimate target.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 10:46:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No longer clearing transfers with the Greek central bank would be pretty final.

The full power of the US Treasury's vaunted 'economic warfare' unit would be employed to trash anything they try to do through Western clearing houses, BIS, Western Central Banks, etc. I would expect them to try to achieve what the USA did with Cuba October '60, but without the formal embargo. But now there is an alternate clearing system coming into operation through China, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. But having to suddenly re-route all of your trade and finance arrangements in a day or two would be catastrophic in the short term. OTOH, so would be continuing with the insisted 'austerity'. And cutting Greece off from Western international clearing would make it impossible for Greece to deal with its debts and would be like the ECB, EC, and IMF locking Greece out of the Euro area, analogous to manufacturers locking out workers in a strike. By making it impossible to pay they would, in a sense, be giving Greece cover to default. It would be the market's reaction to the tens to hundreds of dollars worth of defaulted debts held by various banks that would then come into play.

Such an action would also provide a justification for Syriza and Greece to make any deal they could find with Russia and China, along with any one else who would accept payment in currencies other than the Euro, US$, of various western major currencies. It might be awkward for the US Treasury and/or the BIS to prevent an oil exporter such as Indonesia or Brunei from settling for oil shipments in their own currency or Chinese Yuan. I certainly don't know, nor do I suspect does anyone else with a high degree of certainty.

I think it would be a high stakes roll of the dice.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 11:05:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Greek Kolotumbas Increasing at Disconcerting Rate | naked capitalism

Greece is staring to make contingency plans; Ambrose Evans-Pritchard reports that the government has designed new drachmas. But he argues that neither side holds the upper hand, since the prospect of a powerful Grexit is a powerful weapon.

That view may be part of what is informing the sometimes self-sabotaging aggressive Greek posture. And it may not be accurate. The US and UK press have expressed more concern about the risk of a Greek departure from the Eurozone. And recall that it took a lot of external pressure on Germany, not just from the US and UK governments, but from NATO too, to get Merkel to rein in Schauble.

However, the concern that led Eurogroup to relent may not have been about a Greek departure, but a disorderly Grexit. If enough of the hardliners (the ECB, the IMF, and the more bloody-minded members of the Eurogroup) share that view, Greece's likely assumptions about its negotiating leverage, and what degree of concessions its "partners" are prepared to make would prove to be off base.

Now, I must say I disagree with most of what Yves' writes in this article.
There is no good faith here, the negotiations are at least partly conducted for the benefit of the audience and there is no way that Spain and Portugal will be anything less than hostile. One of the few assets Greece has is that the Eurogroup's case is macoeconomic nonsense and in a fair discussion they look like clowns compared to Varoufakis. So letting him continue to talk with journalists is essential. Greece has no other way to plant a news story and would completely loose any track in the bigger societal discussion.
She also puts still too much faith in stories based on "officials'" take on things even after the earlier draft wars have shown that the Euro side has no compunction about bare face lying.

still her take is based on years of experience negotiating in the financial sector and not an irrational fear of Tony Blair lurking under the bed.

by generic on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 03:51:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, I must say I disagree with most of what Yves' writes in this article.

Including the first paragraph. What Ambrose Evans-Pritchard actually reported was

Greece's new currency designs are ready. The green 50 drachma note features Cornelius Castoriadis, the Marxisant philosopher and sworn enemy of privatisation.

The Nobel poet Odysseus Elytis - voice of Eastward-looking Hellenism - honours the 200 note. The bills rise to 10,000 drachma, a wise precaution lest there is a hyperinflationary shock as Greece breaks out of its debt-deflation trap at high velocity.

The amateur blueprints are a minor sensation in Greek artistic circles. They are only half in jest.

by gk (gk (gk quattro due due sette @gmail.com)) on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 04:23:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From the end of the AEP column:
Alekos Flambouraris, the government affairs minister, has already begun uttering the fatal word "delay", as if were possible to delay an IMF payment without triggering a total collapse of confidence. Syriza insiders warn privately that default is becoming an alarmingly real possibility. "It is so bad that anything could happen. I can't talk any more, the phones are bugged," said one official.

He blamed the European Central Bank (ECB) for setting off a "self-fulfilling deposit flight" from the banking system by refusing to accept Greek collateral in exchange for loans. This decision was made within days of Syriza's landslide election, and before EMU's elected leaders had issued any opinion.

The ECB's pre-emptive move is seen in Athens as counter-insurgency warfare against the first radical-Left party elected in Western Europe since 1945. It will not be forgotten lightly.

The outflows were brisk even before that. Deposit losses reached €12.8bn in January. This is showing up in the "Target2" payment data of the ECB system. The Greek central bank's liabilities to the rest of the EMU network rocketed from €49bn in December to €76bn in January as capital flight accelerated. They may have hit €100bn by now.

This is double-edged. Creditors have even more to lose if Greece spins out of control. A full repudiation of debt to the EMU institutions and states would cost over €300bn. It would be the biggest default of all time, by an order of magnitude.

I had read the same post by Yves but decided not to quote any of it. She spent years with Nomura and has the perspective and experience of a large bank bank executive. She has much more than that, but that was her home for so many years it is not possible not to be seriously influenced by that mind set. Bankers have never dealt easily with revolutionaries, except when they can easily have them crushed. And what is happening is much more political economics than economics a la 'mainstream' economics, which likes to pretend politics has nothing to do with economics. Yves knows this also, but it is hardly her long suit.

"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Mon Mar 2nd, 2015 at 11:38:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think her conclusions do follow from her premises:

  • Greece is running out of money and needs funding right now.

  • The people who Greece has to convince to get funding is the Eurogroup.
  • If those hold true then yes the memo was total surrender since they conceded the right to evaluate their reforms to the institutions. This also turns their later communication strategy incoherent.

    But do they? On the second point I clearly disagree. I'm more than halve convinced that the Spaniards would advocate blocking the ports and bombing the population centers if they could be seen as doing so. What limits the Euros' action phase is public perception and fear of an exit. At least Schäuble would have no future if he is seen to push Greece out of the Euro and then demands the 300 billion hole in the ECB's balance sheet be filled by fresh tax money. Which he probably would since he is a believer.

    On the second I also disagree. A default in and of itself is no problem, except if used by the ECB to force capital controls. And at least in the case of the IMF the Greek position is that the ECB should just hand over the two billion they owe them to the Fund. If the ECB refuses and than uses the resulting default to murder the payment system they really need to be in control of the media narrative. Because otherwise that looks like a carrier limiting move.

    Finally I think she puts too much importance on the exact language used since in private sector negotiations everything you say can resurface in court. Here the only court that matters is the one of public opinion.

    by generic on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 04:22:23 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    For me it was a question of emphasis. I don't doubt she is correct as far as expressing how Greece is viewed by the world banks and their executives. But what matters here is how to deal with that, and giving too much solicitude to those sentiments leads to surrender. Too little MAY lead to default and forced exit, but I think Greece's best chance is sailing as close to that head wind as possible and tacking as it must. The very thought of the ECB filling a $300 billion hole in Eurogroup banks deriving from a Greek default, much as the Fed did with the GFC, would be the end of the world for much of the conservative political elite. The could not but see that as inflation - "Three Hundred Billion Created Out Of Thin Air!!". The only other place the money could be obtained is from those 80 individuals who own more assets that the bottom half of the population combined. They cannot even contemplate such a thing. It would be worse than the Bolsheviks.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 09:35:29 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The very thought of the ECB filling a $300 billion hole in Eurogroup banks

    I think the 300 billion are supposed to be the whole damage, including official creditors and central bank balances. Only a very small part of this involves private banks directly.

    by generic on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 09:47:17 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Of course, but it undermines the narrative: "Debts must be paid!" In REAL money, of course. And gives rise to the awkward question of why this can be done for banks and not for the people.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 09:50:48 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    What exactly are "the Eurogroup banks"?

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 09:51:03 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    I would take them to be all the national central banks supervised by the ECB by treaty obligations, all of the banks they supervise and those new institutions responsible for resolving insolvent banks and stabilizing financial conditions in Eurogroup countries.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 09:58:08 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Those are not the ones that would take a direct hit if Greece defaulted, I don't think.

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 10:03:01 AM EST
    [ Parent ]


    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 10:11:25 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    The IMF and ECB would take a $15 billion hit this year if they force a default. So, take careful aim and see if you can only blow off a toe or two. Then the question becomes: "who holds the Greek Treasuries and how forthcoming will they be to able to extend and pretend?" Forthcoming I believe. Do you really believe that their principles are worth $15 billion a year? If they take that kind of hit it is a sign that they see Greece's actions as an existential threat to their whole system - which it is. But they only up the ante by calling the debt. That action also raises an existential threat to their own continued wealth and power.

    I recall reading about 11% yields for holders of Greek treasuries in 2014. Many of them seemed to be hedge funds. I would bet that a lot of those bills are spread around Eurozone banks. They needed to get returns somewhere. Looks like about $15 billion in Treasury bills all together. More hits to the same suspects in 2016. Of course if they force a total debt repudiation by Greece the entire structure of the new ESFS will almost cerainly dissolve, unless the money to cover those out year liabilities is already in the fund, which I have trouble believing. So another piece of paper ass cover dissolves in the rain.

    "It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."

    by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 01:48:15 PM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Of course there is no good faith, and Varoufakis has a principled opposition to piling more debt on an insolvent country. If Tsipras has appointed him finance minister and he has agreed, it's not to take the €7bn of the last tranche of the last program, or to agree to a "third program" worth €30bn to €50bn.

    In addition, the Eurozone core is convinced, especially Germany, that the financial risks are finally ringfenced and Grexit is manageable.

    Finally, Syriza is from the radical left, so it is ideologically opposed to the EPP and ALDE, and a direct competitor to the PES. What this means is that there isn't a government in the Eurozone, or an EU Commissioner, that is friendly to Greece's government. At most the Social Democrats or Labour politicians will be condescendingly sympathetic, and that if they're from Latin countries (up to and including Belgium - compare the attitudes of Van Brempt MEP and Dijsselbloem, both Socialists/Labour).

    So Greek default is probably a given, and thus Varoufakis' job is to on the one hand help create the conditions for Greece to survive it, and on the other hand to contaminate European public opinion with as much good macroeconomic sense as he can. Hence the disarming honesty, the refusal to give ballpark figures he's not confident he can deliver on, the "I'm the finance minister of a bankrupt country", and the "If we are snuffed out by the vested interests, it will be our honour to have fallen in fighting the good fight".

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Mar 3rd, 2015 at 05:06:40 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    In addition, the Eurozone core is convinced, especially Germany, that the financial risks are finally ringfenced and Grexit is manageable.

    I think this is key.

    While Germany believes that Grexit is manageable, Grexit gets ever more likely, because what reason is there for Germany to compromise?

    And it has to be clear eventually to Syriza that it is impossible to satisfy Germany and save the Greek economy.

    Hence - Grexit.

    by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 4th, 2015 at 08:56:52 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    While Germany believes that Grexit is manageable, Grexit gets ever more likely, because what reason is there for Germany to compromise?

    "Manageable" is not the same as "better than any alternative". The incentive can be that, while it may be manageable, a better situation could ensue without it.
    For different definition of better, depending on what they care about. For some, it could mean how history will judge them. Regrettably, Schauble is too old to care as much about his future as we would like and seems intent on leaving the wrong kind of trail. But maybe others will see things differently.

    Anyway, I am not saying you are wrong necessarily, just that it may not be as direct a conclusion as it seems.

    Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

    by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Mar 4th, 2015 at 11:55:39 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    Spain insists Greece will need a third bailout - live updates | Business | The Guardian

    Spain's economy minister is happily wading in on the Greek debate again today after getting in to a bit of hot water earlier in the week.

    Luis de Guindos is sticking to his guns, repeating his comment that Greece will need a third rescue in the region of €30-50bn.

    De Guindos told a conference in Barcelona that Europe would use the four-month bailout extension secured by Greece to assess what progress has been made, and what the next move should be.

    We have given ourselves these four months to one, see what the real situation is, to see how Greece has met conditions and to try and establish what happens next ... which is fundamentally a third rescue.

    He added that ministers at next week's eurogroup meeting would consider Greece's liquidity needs and debt maturities.

    De Guindos comment earlier in the week that the eurozone was working on a third rescue package for Greece ruffled a few feathers.

    In response, a spokeswoman for eurogroup chief Jeroen Dijsselbloem insisted that finance ministers were not discussing a third bailout.

    One assumes he's talking about an extend-and-pretend package like the last two, on condition that the Greeks stick to the rules that ensure it will be unsustainable...

    Still, it seems surprisingly honest and lucid of him to say it.

    It is rightly acknowledged that people of faith have no monopoly of virtue - Queen Elizabeth II

    by eurogreen on Wed Mar 4th, 2015 at 09:17:10 AM EST
    [ Parent ]
    He's an asshole.

    A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
    by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 4th, 2015 at 10:09:56 AM EST
    [ Parent ]

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