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Frank: I think the retribution of "the people" on those who authored their misfortune will be terrible.

I'm not so sure about that: the UK right wingers have always excelled at deflecting any blame towards Johnny Foreigner in general and Brussels Eurocrats in particular.

Cue in the EU-Punisher plot (h/t Cat), the whole of Europe Soviet Union banding together to deprive plucky Britain of the land of milk and honey of the post-Brexit glorious era. It's going to be all over the tabloids and the Leavers will lap it up, you just watch...

by Bernard on Mon Apr 8th, 2019 at 06:45:50 PM EST
Yes, I concur. Look at the US where the Trumpistas still won't admit they got conned

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Apr 8th, 2019 at 06:59:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They got conned? They got what they voted for.

I used to be afew. I'm still not many.
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Tue Apr 9th, 2019 at 01:36:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They got all the racism but none of the economic recovery.
by rifek on Tue Apr 9th, 2019 at 02:23:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So, they got the important part.
by Zwackus on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 12:13:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think voters are motivated by economic promises. The vote for Trump was a tribal vote, and Trump is a tribal president.

I used to be afew. I'm still not many.
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 07:53:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The majority, yes. But most elections are decided by swing voters (or differential turnout) and if the US economy is doing ok and employment numbers are at record levels then those factors will do Trump no harm at all. If, on the other hand, global trade tensions and other factors result in a sharp down-turn by November 2020, Trump could be in trouble, wall or no wall.

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 08:32:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No doubt, but the question was whether Trump voters felt conned over the last time out.

I used to be afew. I'm still not many.
by john_evans (john(dot)evans(dot)et(at)gmail(dot)com) on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 08:52:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I have to agree that most of his "base" probably don't. Trump learned early that its not what you actually do in office that matters, but how you emote and what you are seen to be trying to do.

So Trumps shenanigans over the wall matter, even if less than a mile is actually built. I recall reading analyses that his supporters didn't actually expect the Mexicans to pay for it and will settle for more anti-Mexican rhetoric and some trade restrictions to vent their hostility.

Trump's base is about emotional satisfaction, and his rallies supply that. Even his failures - mirroring their own - will just feed their paranoia that "the elite" is against them and increase their identification with him. Democratic angst and anger is grist to their mill.

Trump hasn't actually done much, except appoint lunatic judges, pass tax cuts for the wealthy, and tear up trade and disarmament agreements none of them understand anyway. So long as the economy holds up he is safe, providing the authoritarian strong-man image and tribal leadership they crave. A war would actually help his cause, and failing that, lots of disputes with foreigners.

And all the while the USA is in relative decline...

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 10:00:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Trump supporters are all about ressentiment:

a psychological state arising from suppressed feelings of envy and hatred that cannot be acted upon, frequently resulting in some form of self-abasement

They are Right Wing Authoritarians who desire to be told what to do by a Social Dominant - Trump - as long as he feeds their need to have THOSE PEOPLE!, i.e., anybody not them, hurt in some satisfying manner.

 

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 03:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The Trump voters I know are a long way from feeling conned.
by asdf on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 03:55:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And they won't, unless they lose their jobs or their businesses lose a lot of money. Even if he loses a war. De Nile is more than a river in Egypt...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 04:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They're mostly retired, living off Social Security and Medicare and TRICARE (military version of Medicare). Most of their energy is spent in complaining about all the lazy young punks who are getting government handouts, and about how the libruls are ruining 'merica. Especially AOC; it is amazing how fast she comes up in conversation.
by asdf on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 04:48:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well she is a young, female, Hispanic, librul, New Yorker with attitude. Everything they hate...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 05:32:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Everything they fear: the loss of WASP privilege.
by rifek on Sat Apr 13th, 2019 at 11:33:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Nah. The Martha Stewart-Ralph Lauren Rule applies: Anything you can do I can do better. See?

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Sat Apr 13th, 2019 at 11:55:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My observations are, they are delighted by him disrupting "The Establishment" and, more startling, have abandoned purported fear of "deficit spending".

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.
by Cat on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 04:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Only because they trust Trump to 'do the right thing'.


"It is not necessary to have hope in order to persevere."
by ARGeezer (ARGeezer a in a circle eurotrib daught com) on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 05:36:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Deficit spending was never a problem for GOP administrations - Cheney:  Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the mid-term elections, this is our due.

It was only ever a stick for Republicans and Democratic centrists to beat libruls with.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 05:45:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This true.

Both parties have enjoyed deficit without impugnity (by the press) until Budget Control Act of 2011.

Remember that? heh heh heh. And the Super Select Committee "sequestering" this program and that program, the "ceiling" and the "suspensions". O, the confusion this caused! And how Miss Nancy endorse "pay-go" restraint on ... whatever it is that the DLC disapproves of, including national health insurance, but not DOD budget, because.

That's all behind the liberal liberals and the conservative liberals now.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Wed Apr 10th, 2019 at 06:04:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fox Business issues correction for botched Trump approval poll
The Georgetown Politics poll, as featured on Fox Business network's "Lou Dobbs Tonight," showed a 58 percent approval rating for Trump's handling of the economy and a 55 percent overall approval rating for the president.

However, the 55 percent figure actually represents the number of respondents who said they hold unfavorable views of Trump. According to the survey, 41 percent have a favorable view of Trump. Of those polled, 52 percent disapprove of Trump's job as president, compared with the 43 percent who said they approve.

## Mental disorder is a communicable disease.

Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

by Cat on Thu Apr 11th, 2019 at 08:33:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Because they'll never blame him for not bringing the jobs back.  "It's all cuz o' them Dimcrats and so-shul-ists, just like Fox and Rush and Alex say."
by rifek on Sat Apr 13th, 2019 at 11:20:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The bottom line is if UK goes into recession, unemployment goes up, incomes go down, inflation goes up, public services go down, and the £ - that symbol of national virility goes down - the government of the day will get it in the neck.  They can blame the EU if they want, but the EU does not owe them anything once they leave - especially if they leave with no deal and don't even pay their bill on leaving the restaurant.  After a while even the most dim-witted may get the idea...

Index of Frank's Diaries
by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Apr 8th, 2019 at 07:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Except that recession is part of the business cycle, and affects the economy as a whole, more or less in sync, and hopefully is recovered from within a reasonable time.

A no-deal Brexit would be a more fundamental change to the economy than a recession. Banks and manufacturing moving out of a country are not easily reversible, temporary actions. The Irish backstop will still be in play, which will either be permanent or will be replaced by unification--also permanent. Major and permanent political realignment could happen when you have two parties that are both divided on the EU issue; maybe there won't be either a Conservative OR a Labour party. Trading relationships are not permanent, but they have a really long lifetime because they are so hard to negotiate. Getting back into the EU will be tough, and will be under different terms.

Seems to me that expecting the Brexit fallout to be of the scale and permanence of a recession might be misleading.

by asdf on Mon Apr 8th, 2019 at 07:24:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Brexiteers have made much of the UK being the 5th. largest economy in the world, and thus a major economy in its own right, and in a position to set its terms of trade with other economies to its own advantage. They claim it's historic and special relationships with the US and Commonwealth make it a world rather than just a European power in political, military and economic terms.

But what happens if the UK starts slipping down the global ranking list towards 10th. place? What happens if the chronic political instability and economic under-performance of the 1960's and 1970's returns? We're not talking short term recession here, but long term decline.

Economies have changed radically since the 1970's. The UK has de-industrialised and become more dependent on food imports. Financial services, capital movements, supply chains and cross-national just in time manufacturing processes have become much more complex and integrated.

Sometimes I think that national politics haven't caught up with these changed economic realities. I see the UK industrial base eroding further, financial services migrating abroad, intellectual properties being sold off, and the government's tax base disappearing down the toilet. But we won't know the extent of this for some years, and yes, the scapegoats will be many and varied. But it will be too late for that to matter. The damage will have been done.

Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Mon Apr 8th, 2019 at 08:49:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the time this is over we will be dreaming of being in 10th place.

The UK's economy is boosted by the global pre-eminence of The City. But leaving the EU will damage its usefulness, even if the City has already negotiated its own deal about access.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Mon Apr 8th, 2019 at 08:56:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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