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A new French political party

by Alex in Toulouse Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 12:25:27 PM EST

A new political party is born in France. One that may appeal to environmentalists, and people generally wary and weary of our consumer society.


This new party calls for sustained and equitable  degrowth. A drastic reduction of consumption and a change in consumption trends in rich countries.

The basic idea is that no finite system can expand infinitely, even in basic scientific models. So when applied to economics: no economic system based on growth can be sustained forever. Taking into considerations limitations in ressources, energy, and the inherent finite nature of Earth ... perhaps this is not such a bad idea, if feasible.

The party's website is in French, but its ideals are universal:

http://www.partipourladecroissance.net/

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Can you explain what is meant by exécutif in the Party's charter?
Il n'est pas possible d'appartenir à un exécutif et d'être membre du Parti pour la décroissance (À l'exception des communes de moins de 3 500 habitants).


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 01:47:27 PM EST
It means you cannot be a minister, mayor etc
(except for towns with less than 3000 inhabitants, which are basically villages ... in villages that small mayors traditionally do not belong to any party, or rarely that is).

The idea is that no one in this new party can be an elected official. If you are elected by this party, then you must quit the party. You will be reinstated in the party once your term is over.

This is supposed to eliminate career/ambition motivated memberships.

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 01:57:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting.

The German Greens have a similar, tough less radical system. On one hand, on no post do they have a single top leader - both the party and the fraction are double-headed. On the other hand, there is a strict prohibition of holding multiple offices of different kind: you can be either in the government, or a federal or state parliamentary fraction, or in the party leadership, but not in more than one of these.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 03:30:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting, and I like most of the points in their charter (especially their dislike of the "développement durable" crowd). But, as history tends not to repeat itself quite like the last time, their goal of basically reverting to a 19th century lifestyle and economy with some socialism thrown in seems a little bit uninspired.
by srutis on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 04:00:31 PM EST
That's not quite it. La décroissance is inspired by the idea of actually going against what all modern political and economical strategies are focused on: growth. But your own personal lifestyle does not have to change drastically to go along degrowth, and can keep on evolving in a 21st century mindset (ie aspiring to new technology etc).

Our current approach to consumption and ressources is required to change, but not as in "revert back to the stone age", but more or less along the lines of localized food management (do not buy stuff grown half-way across the world and brought in by plane), a lot more recycling and renewable energies (oil dependency is one thing that must be totally broken), company profit distributed to company employees and not share-holders etc etc. Basically your average, expected, left-wing and green party positions ... but the actual degrowth bit is what makes the difference ... that is basically: "implement and follow a plan for negative growth in rich countries, so that the rest of the world can catch up and we can all then stabilize ourselves at a stable level of consumption we're all comfortable with and that is compatible with the ressources of this planet (instead of all competing and going for more growth more growth more growth and wrecking everything on Earth)".

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 04:51:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a slogan for you:

"Progress not by growth but transformation"

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:30:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah right. This about sums up the points I tried to make below.
by srutis on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:56:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks DoDo, I'll take it ;)
But I need more slogans. More, more, more, more, slogans aarrr more more more ;)))
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 06:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree with the basic premises of décroissance (and I think that the outline you provided here feels better than the "charte").

I strongly wish to switch tomorrow totally to the agricultural model defined in the charter, and changes are already underway to do so; because a non-intensive agriculture will produce less than the one we currently have.

In my opinion, degrowth in general consumption (of non-food items) can make a much larger difference. This is touched several times in the charter, but never explicitly mentioned: build much less but more solid stuff. From computer printers to household applicances, the stuff breaks down (and is expected to break down) far too fast; and thrown away (because it's cheaper to get a new one than to mend it).

Further I disagree about not having to change the lifestyle. We need to consider swapping/mending/lending something as a first option and buying as the last, not the other way around. And, if we want to change the agricultural system, we will have quite another diet.

What does negative growth finally amount to, using the current benchmarks? Use less resources and less energy.   Means, that we have to find other benchmarks where we can "grow"; along the lines of becoming more efficient with less stuff available (Maybe Intelligent Growth :-p   ).

by srutis on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:54:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fair points.

As for the lifestyle, some changes will be required. I did say "no drastic" changes, but there will be a lot required nevertheless.

About changing our diets ... some time back I experimented with the idea of eating less meat. Then I tried stopping altogether. Now it's become a habit and I can't imagine ever switching back to the meat days. Why am I mentioning this? Because just by experimenting with this I started realizing how much everything in France is based on meat. Meat is even a norm of social interaction, here. i.e. when you're having someone for dinner, you don't think: "what will I prepare for dinner?" but "what main dish with meat will I prepare for dinner?".

So what needs to be done requires deep changes in mentality: start explaining to French people that it's not a good thing that their diet now consists of eating 100% more meat than 50 years ago. Not good for their health, not good for the planet, not good for animals, and not good for farmers who are now entrenched, because of meat (which consumes up to 70% of all vegetable growth as cattle feed), in a logic of over-production. Ultimately not good for humanity because of all the pandemics that farmed animals can cause ...

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 06:21:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
About the difference between my outline and the charte, I just summed up some of the main issues that décroissance advocates defend. The charte of this new party is actually quite limited in comparison to the entire ideal of décroissance. That's to be expected, seeing how they're only just starting to politicize something that up to now was limited to a few politicians, a few economists, energy experts, scientists, and the blogosphere. This party isn't even a few days old!
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 06:32:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
their goal of basically reverting to a 19th century lifestyle and economy with some socialism thrown in
Avant les Fourieristes!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 06:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I know there are a lot of far-left parties in France (at least the last time I checked)...and there was no standard green-left party (in the same line of the German greens?or ICV in Catalonia?)...Although this may not be a standard green party after all...

Has this party any legs? Any chance to win something big? It would be enough a major of a small city....

Wondering...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 04:19:08 PM EST
It's difficult to tell how good their chances are or will be. But I can bet than in 2 years time their backing will be stronger than it is now. People have been talking about this party for some time, and many have been waiting for it. Degrowth, or décroissance, is no longer perceived as a chimera but as something that can actually be achieved. A lot of French ecologists are also disappointed in the Greens and want more radical decisions reached on the environment.

As of now, I am under the impression that they are planning to first participate in elections in 2007, which means parliamentary elections. In which case they will have far fewer chances than if they start at the municipal/regional level.

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 04:40:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And thanks for answering indeed.

My new quesitn is..will it be another small left party, left of the PS among hundreds of other (well not hundreds but five or six?

I mean it is difficult to create a common platform with other non-communist left?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 04:45:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In my opinion this party has far more potential than any of the other left-of-left parties, in that these other parties are more or less stuck in an "opposition mindset". These other parties can only exist by opposing others.

But this party here, does not oppose anyone in particular, or any party in particular. It focuses on our way of life. On something new to try, now that we've seen the downsides of communism and capitalism. This is what makes it a promising one.

A lot of people who are tired of oscillating between moderate left and far left, may find an opportunity for change in this somewhat "apolitical" new party. (apolitical in the sense that, like I said, it does not exist to fight against opponent parties)

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 04:55:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think the party's logo (a snail) is quite fun, but nothing tops the logo of Otra Democracia es Posible (Another Democracy is Possible). I was so sick of the Spanish political parties last year that I actually gave them one of my 3 senate votes.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:41:44 PM EST
Excellent logo!!!
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:44:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
N'est-ce pas?

Now all wee need to do is make it a Pan-European party. Another Europe is Possible!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
They do raise an important point: that no country other than Switzerland, has even gotten "remotely close" to implementing participative democracy. Basically you vote for someone, and then they do as they please. Not good. We should have a say on all matters.

Granted that some matters will bore us to death ("calling in your votes, today we are voting on the normalization of green pea sizes in Europe"), but at least if we could submit laws, change law proposals, and refuse laws, through a participative system like in Switzerland, life would be so much better.

On the other hand, this accepts that people are mature enough to make all decisions, when clearly they aren't (example: when the death penalty was abolished in France, a strong majority of the population was still in favour of it ... it took nearly 15 years for this trend to reverse, even though the law had already been passed => this is thus a good example of elected officials actually being more mature than the people).

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:49:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Another sad example of politicians ahead of their people happened during the Second Spanish Republic. The Socialist government gave women the vote even though most women (under stronger clerical influence) thought it was a bad idea. In 1934 the women proceeded to vote the socialists out (as instructed by priests during mass). Then after 1939 they were reduced to second-class citizenship again. While they retained the vote, as late as the 1970's my mother needed my father to open a bank account for her so the Government could pay her teacher salary. Just like a child's account, really.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 05:54:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
participative democracy is a double-edged sword. Much nonsense has gotten thrown out by popular votes; other issues were voted on several times until accepted. Generally, the whole process is moving at glacial speed (not necessarily a bad thing though, but in some cases it is). The focus on consensus by most politicians (as any issue could be voted on) makes it difficult for an elected majority to do silly stuff.

In two weeks, we vote on two issues. A law which allows shops near big train station and airports to open on sundays (until now a matter of canton legislation, I think). Further, we vote on a 5 year moratorium for the use of GM plants and animals in agriculture.

by srutis on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 06:11:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Indeed it is.

And Switzerland's land/population size does allow for easier management, I suppose. Smaller means => less issues to handle. I don't mean this in a diminutive way, i.e. socially, economically, politically Switzerland must face exactly the same problems we all face, but there are fewer airports for example :)

by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 06:24:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you kidding, I mean about the less issues to handle, because of the smallness of Switzerland. Do you know all the stuff we are voting on! at times it seems never-ending hand difficult to stay "really" informed on all of them.
by Fran on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 01:55:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I believe you!!! (even only 2 issues a week means a lot of homework to read about them, and be objective)

But then the question is, if it's hard to keep in touch with all the issues in Switzerland, it's also got to be hard in France ... so my question is, how do elected officials in France manage to stay informed on every issue that they vote on, if they're busy being politicians all day long, giving interviews, flattering their own egos, shaking hands, and skipping parliament every other day? These guys probably have no idea what they're voting on!!!

by Alex in Toulouse on Tue Nov 15th, 2005 at 03:40:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just learned by reading some of the publications etc surronding this party's website, that automobiles kill 1,2 million people annually, around the globe. Holy shit!!!
by Alex in Toulouse on Mon Nov 14th, 2005 at 06:51:11 PM EST


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