Top Diaries

Funny, but willfully beside the point ;-)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 01:56:15 AM EST

It's pretty amazing how many people, when you say "religion is NOT THE ONLY sourve of morality", hear "religion is NOT A source of morality". Why are they unsecure?

(Note that I don't know if you're in that group from your diary)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 01:59:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God - You Europeans are crazy (4.00 / 3)

You should have seen the ruckus at my High School when, at 16, I said in my Philosophy Class that "ethics based on the fear of God's punishment is not ethics", or something to that effect. The entire school found out.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 02:02:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mind you, I was just parroting (the very pious and Christian philosopher) Kant.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 06:10:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

When an American politician tries to be inclusive when talking about morality they will say "people of all faiths". I am always left out!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 02:24:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

This is absolutely false!!!!!

There is a lot of faith in not having any faith. Actually there are no more faithful people that those who do not have any faith.

And do not get me to talk about those agnostics...having faith in the lack of faith of your own judgement/faith... I wonder if the agnostics are the most faithful...

Regarding me, as you surely know I have absolute faith and know for sure that SHE exists and is black (except at night where she decides to become a Vietnamese... do not ask me why I just know).

A pleasrure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 04:12:15 AM EST

God is so ancien régime...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 04:55:40 AM EST

asdf writes:
"What he completely misses is that those evil founding Puritans in Massachusetts had been deeply impressed by over a decade of experience in early 17th century Holland. The Dutch trade system made their society worldly and tolerant and middle-class, and the Pilgrims brought that attitude over with them to the New World."

You are wrong.

The English Puritans left the Netherlands because they feared that the tolerant religious climate might have corrupted their children. So they applied at the English crown to be granted the right to emigrate as a group to the Americas.

There they were happy to live in isolation.

Well, at least for some time. When a new wave of religious settlers came to their shores, the Quakers, who practically believed in the same set of fundamentals, the 'tolerant' Puritans soon became very upset with the newcomers' way of talking. 'Thou knowest' what happened to them...

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 07:43:05 AM EST

Exactly - and I don't remember which English sect that came to the American Colonies was actually thrown out because they persecuted people - they 'judged' people for blasphemy and other crimes on their own.

And another to me sickening myth is the Anglo-Saxon Protestants' about the supposed enlightement that Protestantism brought. Fuck no, the Protestants rebelled against the Church, but they rebelled as fundies - Calvin ruled like the Salafist guerillas in Fallujah, Luther's called for killing Jews, and there was warfare culminating in a certain Thirty Years' War. Enlightement wasn't allowed by Protestantism - it was allowed by the weakening of the power of religion in the aftermath of the Catholic-Protestant stalemate; and it gathered more steam mostly in Protestant countries because Protestants could not exert centralised global control.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:06:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not to belabour this, but I don't think you are looking at it in 17th century terms. It's true that there were lots of bad things that happened as part of the Reformation, but one of the main points of the Reformation was to break the connection between the inherited religious power of the Kings and put it under the control of the people.

This was the essence of the argument at the time, and the fact that after Parliament (in England) or the state government (in Massachusetts) got control of the church they did bad things with it is a secondary point.

by asdf on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:20:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Secondary to whom.

The point, I think, is that the Reformation wasn't against theocracy - it was against a Church viewed as thoroughly corrupting the faith. And as such it wasn't even unprecedented - it's only that previous movements (most notably the Bogumils, the Cathars in France, and the Hussites in Bohemia) were successfully rooted out and remained in the historical record as 'heretics'. (This is one of the real values of Umberto Eco's The Name Of The Rose - the book, not the film -, showing the long forgotten theological debates surrounding the various reform movements of the late Middle Age, some of which became eradicated, others became monastic orders.)

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 04:28:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

That is really interesting. It was wrong that the Kings manipulated religion, but once power started devolving to the people it is not such a big deal if the State manipulated religion...

Religion provides not a small measure of power over people, and it will always be abused like any other power.

The fact that people may derive solace, or ethics, or a sense of purpose, from religion is irrelevant. There are other sources of solace and/or ethics and/or purpose.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 04:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah yes, them godless Europeans - clearly Poland isn't part of Europe.

by MarekNYC on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 08:07:54 AM EST

Europe is not defined geographically, but as the collection of countries that need to be bashed at any particular time.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 08:47:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

An excellent and most helpful definition - because it is definitely true!

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:02:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nor the Vatican.... (none / 0)

</snark>

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:05:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You Europeans go to church only to get married;

I, like ever more Europeans, don't go to church at all and have no need for the State's or the Church's confirmation of my partnership. Then again, I don't believe in any gods. But most of my fellow Europeans who do believe in some, believe their own way, and going to (Christian) church is not a measure of their religiosity.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:11:42 AM EST

Heh (none / 0)

Don't need to tell a Dutchman about religious freedom. The first renowned politician who actively pursued religious freedom was one of the Dutch Republic "Founding Fathers": William of Orange.

Note, BTW, that it utterly failed and was used by the Calvinist and Protestant radicals as weapon to topple the Catholic supremacy, leading to massive pillaging and wanton destruction of churches and monasteries. Where the radicals were successful, the city council would be replaced completely by Protestant adherents and continue a totalitarian regime of a different colour... It'd take a while and a lot of pressuring by William before the concept would actually sink in. And as many know, the Catholics hated him enough for that to assassinate him in the end.

The Netherlands: proud to be your country's guide! ;)

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:16:34 AM EST

Re: Heh (none / 0)

For a second there I thought you were referring to the William of Orange that the Ulster's Order of Orange is named after. Wikipedia comes to the rescue.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:24:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dutch mistake! (none / 0)

This is very typical. For the Dutch, everyone knows who is meant with William of Orange; there's no ambiguity to which of the so many Williams we refer.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:34:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dutch mistake! (none / 0)

This is very typical. For the Dutch, everyone knows who is meant with William of Orange; there's no ambiguity to which of the so many Williams we refer.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 09:35:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Resources (none / 0)

The issues with religion and politics are several, here are some sources on "the other side."

Sam Harris in his recent book "The End of Faith" takes the position that organized religion has caused more war and bloodshed than any other factor. He also claims that Islam is worse that Christianity in its unwillingness to co-exist with others. The book got a lot of notice in the US, I'm not sure how much it would resonate elsewhere, although I think it has been translated into German. He has a web site: http://samharris.org

There is an a-religious (or anti-religious, depending upon your point of view) movement in the US. A good example is at the Council for Secular Humanism: http://www.secularhumanism.org/ which publishes a magazine called "Free Inquiry". People like Richard Dawkins contribute frequently.

Robert Ingersoll was a popular speaker in the late 19th century in the US. He pretty well covered all the issues of organized religion as it impacted education, politics and morality. He was a forceful and witty polemicist and did a much better job of bringing out the issues than is being done today. This has not stopped anyone from restarting all the old battles. His works are available online. Most essays are fairly short and trying a few is worthwhile just for the literary quality even if you don't agree with his arguments.
The site:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/

As I said on dKos the issue in the US these days is the trend towards theocracy which is worrying many. Even the religious are starting to fear that the "wrong" sect will become dominant. The first amendment was designed to protect minority religions from abuse by a state sponsored denomination. The example of the Protestant/Catholic wars in Britain was the prime impetus. Many think the purpose was to prevent people from exercising religion, but they are being misled.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 10:16:46 AM EST

One thing which has not come up yet is that the German government collects taxes on behalf of the Catholic and and Protestant churches from their members. This makes the German Catholic and Protestant churches by far the wealthiest religious faith based institutions in the world. They have tens of bn of Euros at their disposal and employ more than a couple of hundred thousand people. Both churches run huge social services operations which operate at home and overseas and are administered by complex bureaucracies. So here is the beneficial mix which guarantees the German churches middle-of-road policies: State tax collection + steady stream of revenues + big administration = dominant world position (in Rome for the Catholics) and (in the World Confederation of Protestant Churches). German church officials consider their American brethren in Christ zealots and look and down on them and their (relatively) poor and hopelessly fragmented sect movement. They pity their US colleagues because the US churches have to continuously stir up the emotions of their members in order to fill the tip jars. German priest and pastors don't have to do that: they are paid and cared for like civil servants and are in command of 'real' money.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 11:04:56 AM EST

...but they still protest when a province wants to introduce ethics course, and moan about increasing numbers of quitters (who also make their point by stopping paying the tax), and refuse to publish their accounts.

BTW, when I was in Germany, going to my first (mandatory) religion course was scary. But it turned out much less scary - in fact, I recall two or three classmates casually starting their replies to the teacher with "tough I don't believe in God, I think this Bible passage means..." Also, the class chief teacher, whom I respected very much (he seemed the model citizen to me - remember, with the eyes of someone from a country of subjects), openly told about how and why he left the Church in citizenship class.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 11:13:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have made this point before to asdf, but it seemed to be lost on him so I'll make it again.

You cannot conflate secularism (or lack thereof), separation of church and state (or lack thereof), and freedom of religion (or lack thereof). Each country is different, not better or worse, on account of its history.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 11:17:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

German church quitters (none / 0)

Here is a nice list of the yearly number of quitters for the Lutheran and Catholic churches.

According to this page, only 10% of the Kirchensteuer goes for social purposes (and a similar amount to maintaining buildings, which I can approve of too).

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 11:46:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German church quitters (none / 1)

It is an atheist web site. ;-)

It goes on to point out that the churches kindergardens, schools, clinics, old people homes are paid for with additional communal, federal and insurance companies monnies. Also, the tens of thousands of consciencious objectors who opt to do civil service instead of military service are paid for by the government. Add to that tax reductions and all the church run overseas projects which are paid for by the federal department for economic development and you will probably look at another 35 bn Euros of revenues. It's big money.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 12:16:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: German church quitters (none / 0)

For disclosure, at other instances I have defended the German system (against Americans too dogmatic on church-state-separation), and I'm not against the traditional German churches' social and foreign aid work, or state finance for these. Still, most of the tax sum (unrealised by many payers) is used in not too open ways for other purposes, and I would prefer to not have confessional schools and kindergardens just as I suppose you don't want schools and kindergardens run by a political party - however liberal the big German churches are. In this I definitely prefer the French model.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 04:34:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ethic courses. Yeah, I remember that they introduced them in the Land of Brandenburg, which is also known as 'the little DDR'.

Btw. To quit church is the first freedom you enjoy as a teenager. At the age of 14 you can go to the local court house and sign a form that ends your church membership.

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 12:23:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We have ethics courses in Spain. Up to High School, due to peer pressure and the fact that it was the parents who chose, all my classmates except for 2 or 3 attended "Religion" (i.e. Catholic religion and morals). As soon as I was given my own say, I (along with 50% of all students) switched to ethics.

Religion is the only subject taught in public schools where teachers are not hired and fired by the state eduacation authorities but by the church, despite the fact that it's the state that pays them.

The issue of religion in school keeps recurring with every left<->right change of government. Legislation keeps being reversed.

And the fact that it all comes from a Concordate signed between Franco and the Vatican makes the whole thing all the more repulsive.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 02:20:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

have you been following the mess with he LOE and the marches in Madrid, and the arrests in barcelona. I've ben trying to gather the time and dedication to get a diary together.

As far as Europe being devoid of relgion it's not of lack of effort. I got sucked into mass on two occassions while in Spain.I was thorougly entertained that the priest at that school was trying to get students to go to anti-war rallies.
Being a basque city, the demonstrations were colorful befitting what I expect a people to do with their national pasttime.

Seriousl though, Spain is just example number one, of why forced religion just kills true religion. It's a social activity not sincer faith.

And I'll give my consent to any government that does not deny a man a living wage-Billy Bragg

by ManfromMiddletown (manfrommiddletown at lycos dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 10:34:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God - You Europeans are crazy (4.00 / 3)

The right wing in Spain is in full-asault mode in a way that hasn't been seen since 1934 (back then there were political assasinations in all directions, which are missing today). First, they have been claiming for the last 18 months that the March 2004 elections were stolen by the opposition (it is patently absurd that the government, which oversees the voting and counting process, would have an election stolen under their nose—at least they are not claiming that ballot boxes were stuffed, but that information was manipulated; never mind that the government had control of public media and most private media were friendly to it). Then, in the last 6 months they have organized 4 demonstrations against the government. According to my family it has been quite a sight to see conservative catholic bourgeois types almost apologizing for taking to the streets "I have never done this before". On two occasions the Catholic hyerarchy has called on people to demonstrate and have also taken part in the demonstrations. The issues the right has demonstrated against are:

gay marriage
returning private documents stolen by Franco to their owners (or their heirs) in Catalunya, keeping facsimile copies in the National Archive
the government's willingness to negotiate with ETA "should they completely renounce violence"
the issue of religion in schools (LOE stands for Ley Organica sobre Educacion—Organic laws supersede all others except the constitution)

It boggles the mind. Demonstrating against freedom, justice, peace and the separation of Church and State!

As far as the LOE goes, I am fairly out of the loop regarding the current state of religious education and the proposed law, so I'll defer to you if you're more on top of things.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 05:07:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I can not hink of a better religion that the one that is basically a social activity and it realizes as such ..... much more better than the other religions that do not claim to be social activities.. but basically they are. Noone follows a religion where he/she is the only member.. well he/she can... and will be inmediately called crazy.

Actually if the number of members is not very high it will be called sect (not in the original mening of the world sect but in the frame-negative context)...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 05:07:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

To quit church is the first freedom you enjoy as a teenager. At the age of 14 you can go to the local court house and sign a form that ends your church membership.

I was there from age 12 to 14. Yes, theoretically I could have left in the last half year (as one of my classmates did). But my situation was complicated by the fact that while my parents were atheists, they never told to their parents - and we children were called upon to maintain the illusion.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 04:38:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

A Polish friend of the family who works at one of the Planck Institutes was pressured to not declare himself non-religious, even though he is. He was told that it is not approved of at the higher (political) levels. Always wondered whether that was a common thing or not.

by MarekNYC on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 06:46:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I will note to one and all that asdf's thread is one of the longest of the last few days on ET.

Just how "over" religion are Europeans anyway?

by Upstate NY on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 12:05:43 PM EST

When I was in 9th and 10th grade we spent many a school break arguing on theism with a Jewish student in our class. I've been "over" religion since then, really. When you are older than 16 you learn to devote your limited energy to more promising pursuits than debating on the existence of God.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 02:33:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just how "over" religion are Europeans anyway?

Very much. I care about the issue of religion, and a couple of other readers at ET, but I hazard to say that neither of us is typical for Europeans. (I wouldn't be focusing as much on it, had I not have dealt with US creationists as much in the past.) In my experience, since basically religion counts as private for most Europeans, people won't even start a discussion about it, even if issues about religion matters to them.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 04:43:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, I'd prefer this point of view, but in a way the American cultural model mimics the discussion in literary circles between the limited content of literary texts and their extrapolated political dimension.

In other words, our private lives and thoughts are exhibited in the value system we carry into the political arena. That makes the private and public divide a highly artificial one. And that's why the US is having trouble with these issues right now. Take the abortion issue for instance. That one in particular makes the separation of church and state nearly impossible. If you determine that abortion is murder, then it makes sense that politically speaking you would oppose it. I could give the example of headscarves in France as well. Enforcing secularism in this manner also speaks to a governmental value system which is not neutral in the least. Instead, personal philosophies or religious beliefs extend into the public arena.

by Upstate NY on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 09:22:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I think the EU should fund an immediate investigation into the moral and religious implications of Oktober Fest bare-breasted beer-maidens (well, some of them might be maidens! It's always possible) bringing me huge quantities of bock and weisswurst in a never ending stream.

I promise a full and impartial report after I sober up and loose 50 kilos.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 03:19:38 PM EST

http://www.ganz-muenchen.de/freizeitfitness/baden/fkk.html

That times that kids would be able shock their pius protestant pastors in class are long gone. We were probably the last to ask graphic question about sex practices at our totally prudish pastor enjoying his stammering answers and his deer - in - the - headlights look.

Nudity is common place in Germany. In summer people take off their clothes in the city parks and alonside the rivers and lakes and in public swimming pools.

Even in conservative Bavaria. Here is a list of recommended parks and lakes to enjoy the sunshine in complete nudity in Munich:

link

München and Hinterland - das Nacktbaden Special

Birkensee:
Bad Forstenrieder Park:
Cosima Wellenbad:
Dantebad:
Feldmochinger See:
Feringa-See:

Isar:

Englischer Garten:
Flauchersteg:
Brudermühlbrücke bis Braunauer Eisenbahnbrücke
Oberföhring:
Pupplinger Au:
Schwabinger Bucht:
Maria Einsiedel (Sommerbad)
Michaelibad:
Sommerbad West:
Ungererbad:

Noch mehr Umland:

Ammersee / Eching:
Fürstenfeldbruck / Pucher Meer
Iffeldorf/ Osterseen
Bad Wörishofen:

"The USA appears destined by fate to plague America with misery in the name of liberty." Simon Bolivar, Caracas, 1819

by Ritter on Thu Nov 17th, 2005 at 04:13:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am still shocked. is it realy true the information in the diary and here??

This world is going to hell....Too few sex in our daily lifes...this is going to be a problem if we follow this path.. I am serious

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 05:11:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We're talking Christian Democrat Bayern, and now they have a Pope who used to be the Chief Inquisitor under Wojtila, so...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 05:28:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Ok. I clarify.... Bayern is going to hell (together with Kansas of course and most of the Salamanca neighboorhood in Madrid)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 06:24:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

They're hell-bent (heh) to take all of the rest of us with them.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 06:27:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Nitpick: Christian Socialist Bavaria.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 07:40:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Potato poteito, tomato tomeito... it is going to hell :)...isn't it?

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 12:32:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: God - and dekollete (none / 1)

For the record, the EU intervention in the Dekollete of bavarian waitress was not a matter of religion, but a (unintended?) consequence of a directive about security at work: sun protection for outdoor workers.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/artikel/798/57741/
By the way,it is irrelevant for the oktoberfest, which takes place at the end of september and is mostly indoor, and the polemic faded away.
To link both matters would never had happened to me...

It boggles the mind who could have thought first of it:

a prude catholic willing to apply it miles away from the original aim, hoping to "cacher ce sein que je ne saurais voir"
a slaveholder, oops a building contractor, wanting to kill the directive before he has to pay for suncream
an europhobic columnist of Bild for the fun of it.

Sadly, I concede you can't completely exclude a Brussel-burocrat going into ridicule details...

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.

by lacordaire on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 12:35:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I finally had the time to read through this post. One thing that is not clear to me is - what do you mean by religion. I have the impression, also from some of the comments, that religion = church. From my expierence many people here are not in a church, however would consider themselves religious or spiritual.

So what are we talking about?

by Fran on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 02:28:38 AM EST

here - meaning the people were I live.

by Fran on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 02:30:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

If religion is not organized/institutionalized (= church) there is no issue of separation of church and state, or of secularity. Personal ethics, religious experience or spirituality would not be an issue for political debate.

I have to say, though, that religious types, as well as claiming a monopoly over morality, also claim a monopoly over spirituality. And that is bothersome.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Nov 18th, 2005 at 05:10:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]