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Why I had whale steak for dinner today (reposted on request)

by Sirocco Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 09:52:59 AM EST

I repost this frontpage story at the request of our member Sybil, who has just returned from travel with poor Internet access. An ardent opponent of whaling, she has promised us a spirited rebuttal of my argument. Let the games begin...

Image hosted by TinyPic.comA confession: I had whale steak for dinner today. And it was delicious, too. Served with potatoes, fresh vegetables, mountain cranberries, and a good Merlot, the meat - a staple food in my childhood - was reminiscent of moose but even tastier.

No doubt some international readers will take strong exception to my choice of dinner and the practice which makes it possible. Below is my apologia.


I shall limit my defense to the Norwegian hunt of minke whales - the only avowedly commercial whaling season at present. Thus I do not necessarily endorse, say, the Japanese hunt of various species that arguably are endangered, though some of the ethical arguments apply to whaling generally.

For starters, a few facts.

* Of the about 80 known species of whale, the only one hunted by Norwegians is the minke. This is the smallest of the baleen whales and one of the smallest overall, with a typical adult weight of 4-5 tons. Written sources confirm that minke whales have been hunted in Norwegian waters for at least 1200 years, but the practice may well be significantly older.

* Image hosted by TinyPic.comThis notwithstanding, there are no indications that the minke whale has ever been endangered. Certainly it isn't now: By the latest estimate from the Scientific Committee of the International Whaling Commission (IWC) - the intergovernmental body for regulating whaling, more on which below - there are 112 000 specimens in the North East Atlantic alone. The Norwegian government sets annual quotas by an internationally uncontroversial, conservative method for calculating sustainable harvests. The latter is applied by the country's own maritime researchers, who are leading in the field and operate independently of the government and commercial interests. This year's season, to close on August 31, has a total quota of 797.

* Contrary to myth among certain activists, the Norwegian hunt is consistent with international law. The reason is that Norway lodged an objection to the moratorium on commercial whaling passed by the IWC in 1982, which exempts it from the ban under existing rules. Norway objected because the ban ignored the advice of the Scientific Committee and so contradicts the IWC's express purpose: not to abolish whaling, but "to provide for the proper conservation of whale stocks and the orderly development of the whaling industry." Nevertheless, the hunt was not resumed until 1993, after the IWC repeatedly refused to evaluate the effects of the ban with an eye to establish new quotas as the agreement schedules for 1990 "at the latest." The then PM, Gro Harlem Brundtland - formerly chair of the World Commission of Environment and Development - asked rhetorically upon announcing the decision in 1992:

When did the international community decide to stop hunting and using animals for human consumption? I ask you that direct question because it is impossible to continue with international cooperation on the resources of the ocean, or any other resource... if preservation alone dominates the issue.

* Image hosted by TinyPic.comThough whaling is of no national economic importance, it fills a need for supplemental income during the summer on the part of many local fishing communities, especially in the far north. Proceeds from the sale of meat allow people to carve out a living in a region where agriculture and manufacturing are not viable alternatives. The small coastal vessels used, typically family owned, are converted fishing boats between 50 and 80 feet long, staffed by the owner along with a crew of two to seven. Only modern grenade harpoons are used, and only by governmentally licensed hunters who must pass an annual proficiency test.

* The hunt enjoys solid popular support across the political spectrum. Most Norwegians regard it as  a natural and sensible harvesting of marine resources conducted as a matter of national sovereignty, and view the protest as so much irrational, sentimental clap-trap. There is no domestic anti-whaling movement; all the leading environmentalist groups support the hunt. Even the local branch of Greenpeace declined to set sail this season: The whaling brouhaha, it explained, distracts from real environmental issues like the pollution of the seas. As to the international protest, this has been subsiding lately to the extent that a DC lobbyist on the Norwegian government's payroll since 1995 was laid off this year.

And now for the ethical arguments. Assuming that the Norwegian hunt is indeed sustainable, I will consider two main objections to same. The first one has three subdivisions.

Whale burger1. Some claim it is inherently wrong to kill whales for food, regardless of whether this is sustainable or not. I will not argue here that they are necessarily mistaken. However, I will argue that their claim, to have any merit, must at least be consistently applied to all animals unless relevant ethical distinctions can be made. After all, the farm animals most of us eat on a weekly or daily basis are also killed prematurely, indeed, often in infancy; without a chance to avoid this fate; and frequently in violation of their trust in human beings. How exactly is whaling any more problematic than this? Why is the production of a whale burger (see photo) any more objectionable than that of a Whopper?

a) A common reply centers on the 'special beauty' of cetaceans. But really that is hopeless on so many levels. First, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For instance, the foremost anti-whaling nation happens to be Australia, where kangaroos are legally slaughtered by the millions every year for meat and hides. Apparently the 'cuteness' of the kangaroo, which has made it the world's most readily recognized symbol next to the Statue of Liberty, is insufficient in Australian eyes to end this practice. Second, to measure moral worth by visual appeal obviously leads down a dismal ethical road. Are the lives of physically attractive people more worth than others, for example? Surely not.

b) Somewhat more promising are arguments from whale intelligence, since most would agree that a high level of awareness is one quality that counts against the slaughter of any creature. Thus opponents of whaling note that certain cetaceans, specifically dolphins, score well on animal IQ tests. This, they suggest, boosts the likelihood that their relatives such as the minke whale have rich inner lives that should not be ended. There are several problems here, however. For one thing, while dolphins are undoubtedly among the smartest animals around, their cognitive capacity has proven extremely difficult to gauge. Apparently, all that can be said with certainty is that they are at least as smart as canines, although they tend to score lower than ferrets on tests of set inference. Secondly, bulkier whales - and especially the minke, a solitary species - do not exhibit the signs of intelligence found in certain species of dolphins. At present there is no scientific basis for ascribing to these a significantly higher intelligence than say, that of cattle, routinely butchered everywhere except in India. There is certainly nothing to indicate that minke whales are smarter than pigs, who are sometimes claimed, like dolphins, to have the intelligence of human toddlers.

Arguably, no complex animals should be killed, to be on the safe side. But a global moratorium on this has yet to be proposed; and absent that, a special prohibition of whaling is double standards.

Whaler, Lofoten Islandsc) At this point, anti-whalers often take refuge in an argument from redundancy. Whaling for meat, they maintain, is especially bad because 'unnecessary' to feed human beings. It is true that whaling is  unnecessary in this respect, but so is all meat production under modern conditions. Plainly, since a vegetarian lifestyle is now easy to pursue, no meat is a necessary commodity in developed countries:
Lamb chops and pork, no less than whale steak, are conveniences. And a whale kill provides more meat than does the slaying of other animals. Going vegan on ethical grounds may be admirable, but non-vegans are in no obvious position to condemn sustainable whaling, while even vegans should have no more of a beef with this than with other ways of obtaining flesh.

Especially not if they count themselves environmentalists: Whaling burns less fuel per unit meat produced than other kinds of meat production. In fact, producing a kilo of beef requires 30 times more energy than the harvest of a kilo of minke whale meat. Besides, the latter does not pollute the ground, erode the soil, or release methane into the atmosphere.

2. The other line of argument is concerned not with the killing of whales per se but with the suffering inflicted in the process. Undeniably, the putting to death of a whale involves a measure of suffering, and the question of whether this measure is acceptable is a serious one. In the Norwegian season of 2002/3, where inspectors clocked the time to death for every animal, an estimated 80 percent died instantaneously; the average time to death was about two minutes. Acceptable, or inhumane?

There may be no objective answer to that. What is clear, though, is that the methods of Norwegian whaling are at least as humane as those employed in other forms of big game hunting with respect to both death times and accidental maiming. So far I have heard of no international movement against, say, the Norwegian moose hunt (and how about those Australian kangaroos?).

Image hosted by TinyPic.comMost importantly, compared to the standard way of meat production in the developed world - factory farming, whereby animals are locked up in concentration camps for their entire lives and denied basic natural behavior  - whaling seems vastly superior in terms of animal welfare. As the philosopher Peter Sandøe, leader of the Danish Ethical Council concerning Animals, told the Danish newspaper Politiken on November 7 1993, in connection with the resumption of Norwegian whaling:

[O]bviously, it is extremely difficult to compare the whale's relatively short-lasting, but intense pain when being killed, with the other more long-lasting but less intense forms of suffering experienced in cattle farming. Personally, I have no problems in making such a comparison. The conclusion of this comparison is that I would rather be a minke whale living in freedom until the final few minutes of pain, than a... pig or hen...

In Norway, I might add, there are severe restrictions on the industrial keeping of livestock, including limits on how much milk any cow can produce and an effective ban on the intensive confinement of sows. Now, it is of course possible that whaling and factory farming are both reprehensible practices which a more enlightened posterity will contemplate with horror. If so, the wrongness of the one does not justify the other. But there remain, after all, those wise words in Matthew 7 about the moat in one's brother's eye versus the beam in one's own. The calls in such countries as Australia and the USA, both of which produce most of their meat in brutal factories, to impose sanctions on Norway over its harvest of minke whales do have an air of surreality about them. From an environmentalist perspective, furthermore, one feels that both should first get around to signing the Kyoto Agreement before lecturing others on green values.

In conclusion, while I am open to debate and may conceivably change my mind, I submit, with suitable trepidation, that my choice of dinner was legitimate as well as tasty.

Display:
because this is something I can write off the top of my head without checking my references.

You wrote:

Most importantly, compared to the standard way of meat production in the developed world - factory farming, whereby animals are locked up in concentration camps for their entire lives and denied basic natural behavior  - whaling seems vastly superior in terms of animal welfare. As the philosopher Peter Sandøe, leader of the Danish Ethical Council concerning Animals, told the Danish newspaper Politiken on November 7 1993, in connection with the resumption of Norwegian whaling:

[O]bviously, it is extremely difficult to compare the whale's relatively short-lasting, but intense pain when being killed, with the other more long-lasting but less intense forms of suffering experienced in cattle farming. Personally, I have no problems in making such a comparison. The conclusion of this comparison is that I would rather be a minke whale living in freedom until the final few minutes of pain, than a... pig or hen...

This does not belong in the discussion on the moral issue of killing whales. It is an attempt at moral equivalency. "You eat pork, don't you?" Well, I don't eat meat so I won't accept a guilt trip on that issue. Pigs are domestic animals, bred into being defenseless freaks, "pork chops on hooves" over centuries. Whales are wild mammals in the sea. There's no comparison. Of course I abhorr the cruel treatment of domestic animals especially within mega farming but that issue does not belong in a discussion on the slaughter of whales.

The discussion should be limited to the numbers of whales, the increasing threats to whales, the need for the slaughter, why Norway refused to sign on to the ban on the hunting of whales, etc. Overall, your article has a defensive tone.

more later...

To thine ownself be true. W.S. CANADA

by sybil on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 10:39:34 AM EST
There you are Sybil - thanks very much for your response. You write:

This does not belong in the discussion on the moral issue of killing whales. It is an attempt at moral equivalency. "You eat pork, don't you?" Well, I don't eat meat so I won't accept a guilt trip on that issue.

I'm afraid this ignores my statement as follows:

Some claim it is inherently wrong to kill whales for food, regardless of whether this is sustainable or not. I will not argue here that they are necessarily mistaken. However, I will argue that their claim, to have any merit, must at least be consistently applied to all animals unless relevant ethical distinctions can be made.

Italics added.

Thus, I leave aside the question of whether it is right or wrong, in itself, to kill whales for food. I merely demand consistency. In effect, I argue that consuming whale meat is not inherently worse than eating pork or meat from other complex mammals. Accordingly, there is no good reason to place a special ban on whaling, assuming, of course, that it is sustainable.

You mention being vegan. As I put it further down:

Going vegan on ethical grounds may be admirable, but non-vegans are in no obvious position to condemn sustainable whaling, while even vegans should have no more of a beef with this than with other ways of obtaining flesh.

Which brings us to this claim of yours:

Pigs are domestic animals, bred into being defenseless freaks, "pork chops on hooves" over centuries. Whales are wild mammals in the sea. There's no comparison.

Here I fail to see your point. You seem to argue that, because pigs have been domesticated so as to become, in effect, defenseless slaves, it is less problematic to kill them prematurely than it is to kill wild game. How so? Perhaps you can clarify.

Overall, your article has a defensive tone.

Well, that stands to reason, does it not? It is, after all, a defense...

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 11:20:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I argue that consuming whale meat is not inherently worse than eating pork or meat from other complex mammals.

Do you want to reduce the discussion to a vegan/carnivore argument? Are you saying because I am a [almost] a vegan that I have no right to oppose the whale hunt? I'm arguing against the whale hunt because in general all whales are increasingly endangered.

That is not the question, it is not NECESSARY to eat whale meat. Most of Norway's whale meat ends up as a delicacy in Japan. Norway does not kill whales as a protein supply for its people, it kills whales as an expensive export product to make money. Greed fuels the whale hunt not necessity.

This from 2001

The Norwegian government announced in January it would allow the export of minke whale products. This trade would be despite minke whales being listed in the convention on the international trade in endangered species, and hence their export being banned. [...]

Today a report by WWF underlines Greenpeace's concerns. It says seven out of 13 species that have been protected from hunting for 15 years, and some far longer, remain endangered.

Collisions with ships, entanglement in fishing gear, intensive oil and gas development in feeding grounds, toxic pollution, and climate change, all threaten them, the report says. [Since this report was written, global warming has increased and climate change has heated up the oceans threatening all whales' food supplies.]

Your tone is excessively defensive and necessarily so since you are defending a practice which is scorned by most of the world.

To thine ownself be true. W.S. CANADA

by sybil on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 12:23:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you want to reduce the discussion to a vegan/carnivore argument? Are you saying because I am a [almost] a vegan that I have no right to oppose the whale hunt?

I am baffled here and must ask you to read again what I said above; I am not sure I can put it any clearer. :-)

OK, I'll give it a try. Leaving aside for the moment the empirical question of whether the Norwegian hunt is sustainable at current quotas, and focusing on whether it is intrisically defensible or not to hunt minke whales for food, I am merely arguing the following.

As a matter of logic, people must either:
(a) Reject the slaughter of all complex mammals for food as unethical; or
(b) Accept the slaughter of all complex mammals for food as ethical; or
(c) Accept it in general, but excepting some species X.

For present purposes, I'm not concerned with those in category (a). I disagree, but I respect and understand their standpoint and have no quarrel with it here.

Instead, I am asking the folks within category (c) for whom X = 'minke whale' to explain on what grounds they are making this exception. How exactly is butching minke whale any worse than butching cow, or pig, or sheep, or moose, or whatnot? Why the special preoccupation with this species? That is what I am asking.

Your being vegan or no has nothing to do with it; the logic is the same for herbivores and omnivores alike.

I'm arguing against the whale hunt because in general all whales are increasingly endangered.

As I have stressed, I'm talking only about the minke whale in Norwegian waters, so we should limit ourselves to that.

I have no problem in principle with the assertion that this population is in fact endangered, so that the current Norwegian quotas are not sustainable, if that is the claim you are making. But then, you need to quote some scientific sources and explain why these carry more weight than (a) the Scientific Committee of the IWC's estimate of the population in the Norwegian economic zone at 107,000 individuals; and (b) the application of Norwegian researchers of the quota calculation formula developed by said Committee itself, resulting in a quota of 797 animals this season.

Also, see my comment below. It will be challenging at best to debate the empirical issues without scientific expertise at hand, which is one reason why I focus on matters of principle.

That is not the question, it is not NECESSARY to eat whale meat.

I thought I had addressed this at length in my piece:

At this point, anti-whalers often take refuge in an argument from redundancy. Whaling for meat, they maintain, is especially bad because 'unnecessary' to feed human beings. It is true that whaling is  unnecessary in this respect, but so is all meat production under modern conditions. Plainly, since a vegetarian lifestyle is now easy to pursue, no meat is a necessary commodity in developed countries:
Lamb chops and pork, no less than whale steak, are conveniences. And a whale kill provides more meat than does the slaying of other animals. Going vegan on ethical grounds may be admirable, but non-vegans are in no obvious position to condemn sustainable whaling, while even vegans should have no more of a beef with this than with other ways of obtaining flesh.

Especially not if they count themselves environmentalists: Whaling burns less fuel per unit meat produced than other kinds of meat production. In fact, producing a kilo of beef requires 30 times more energy than the harvest of a kilo of minke whale meat. Besides, the latter does not pollute the ground, erode the soil, or release methane into the atmosphere.

You go on to write:

Most of Norway's whale meat ends up as a delicacy in Japan. Norway does not kill whales as a protein supply for its people, it kills whales as an expensive export product to make money. Greed fuels the whale hunt not necessity.

Every word here is factually false, as far as I know.

There is currently no export of whale products from Norway to Japan, which hunts its own meat. The meat from the Norwegian hunt is for the domestic market, where supply and demand balance out to yield prices on a par with other meat.

Your accusation of 'greed' is also rather strange, especially since I adressed this in the diary entry:

Though whaling is of no national economic importance, it fills a need for supplemental income during the summer on the part of many local fishing communities, especially in the far north. Proceeds from the sale of meat allow people to carve out a living in a region where agriculture and manufacturing are not viable alternatives.

If you dispute this, may I ask on what grounds?

Your tone is excessively defensive and necessarily so since you are defending a practice which is scorned by most of the world.

Plainly, most of the world just don't care one way or another. And whether it should care is precisely what we are debating, so it begs the question to cite world opinion. Finally, what is the point of reviewing my 'tone'? Aren't the arguments what matter?

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 01:39:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"Whales are just another animal on the human food chain."

I think that is a false premise because, whales are cetaceans and cannot be bred domestically for human consumption. Whales are endangered worldwide and their decline is now closely linked to global warming.

As for Norway's export of Minke whale meat to Japan.

The decision allows Norway to resume export of an unlimited amount of meat and blubber from minke whales, to Japan, Iceland, Peru and other nations.

Norway's decision was condemned by World Wildlife Fund as damaging to Norway's reputation as an environmentally friendly nation and as a move that could provoke the collapse of global protections for all whales. "Norway's reckless bid to re-open trade in whale products puts international protections for all whale species at risk," said Richard N. Mott, vice president at WWF. LINK


Japan to Import Norwegian Whale Meat
TOKYO , Japan March 6, 2002 (ENS) - Japan is planning to import whale meat from Norway for the first time in about 11 years, Japanese Fisheries Agency officials said Wednesday. The imports of Norwegian minke whale meat could begin as early as May [2002].

The officials say they intend to import up to a hundred tons of whale meat once they have obtained permission from Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. LINK


Unfortunately for Norway, the trade did not go well when the meat was found to be contaminated by toxins like PCB's. To 'beef' up the sales of whale meat in both Norway and Japan, this year whale burgers have been introduced into fast food restaurants. How burgers would have any less toxins, is beyond me. So eat whale meat at your own risk.

This

equals this


To thine ownself be true. W.S. CANADA

by sybil on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 02:22:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that is a false premise because, whales are cetaceans and cannot be bred domestically for human consumption.

And? I just don't see the point. So what?

If anything, this counts in favor of whaling, as I have said many times by now:

(1) The animals roam free in the wild until caught, as opposed to festering in captivity;
(2) Hunting is many times less energy-demanding than the keeping of livestock;
(3) Hunting is indefinetely cleaner and less polluting, especially with respect to greenhouse gases.

Whales are endangered worldwide and their decline is now closely linked to global warming.

You are repeating this mantra over and over. Where are your specific facts as pertains to the specific population of the specific whale species in question, considered with respect to the specific quotas set by Norwegian researchers based on empirical study and an internationally approved formula devised by the IWC?

Unfortunately for Norway, the trade did not go well when the meat was found to be contaminated by toxins like PCB's.

So you now concede that there is no export of whale meat to Japan? How does that leave your charge that Norway "kills whales as an expensive export product to make money"? Let alone, your claims of 'enormous profit'? Are you prepared to retract all this?

For the record, my understanding is that the blubber, not the meat, is dioxin contamined, dioxin being a so-called lipidophile chemical entrenching itself in fat. And in any case, the meat (as opposed to the blubber, never eaten around here anyway) is approved for sale by the The Norwegian Food Safety Authority, not noted for its flexible approach. So that's good enough for me; and I suspect Japan is declining the meat for protectionist reasons. They have enough of their own. But this is incidental to whether the minke whale hunt is legitimate.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 03:16:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's not the image I have of pigs from reading people who actually deal with them, especially the traditional breeds.

You can't limit the discussion by fiat. Does that mean that you accept his other points and are basically going to argue only that whales shouldn't be hunted because they might go extinct?

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 11:23:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I can limit what I wish to discuss and I eliminate the subject pigs right off the bat as irrelevant.

I will not discuss ALL ANIMALS as Sirocco does, but rather limit the discussion to whales. Okay with you?

I have not even touched his other points yet but yes I'm concerned about the extinction of whales.

To thine ownself be true. W.S. CANADA

by sybil on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 12:03:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's fine, but be aware that the plea for consistency is central to my argument as it stands. I'm not prepared to debate the ethics of killing whales in isolation from the ethics of killing other animals, including pigs.

If you prefer to focus on the empirical issues of whether minke whales are endangered in Norwegian waters, that's OK, except that, as none of us has scientific expertise on the matter, it's tricky to discuss. Certainly I won't be able to do much better than citing the Scientific Committee of the IWC; Norwegian researchers; and so on.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 12:21:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in your plea for consistency. So you want to use a global carnivore consistency to defend your country's inconsistency with the rest of the world regarding the ban on whale hunting.

On the subject of comparative animal pain:


Is hunting whales cruel ?
Minke whales are hunted using an explosive harpoon. These replaced the "cold" (non explosive) harpoons because they killed the animals more quickly. However, the whales may still take a considerable length of time to die and there is widespread agreement, especially when it is compared to methods used to kill farm animals, that whaling is inhumane.
LINK

Sirocco, you assume that I am [almost] a vegan on ethical grounds. My motive was based on nutrition and health before ethics. Like any biological creature, my first imperative is to survive, and animal fats do clog up the arteries which can lead to coronary arterial diseases. Not to mention, that there is a proven relation to breast cancer and eating animal fat.

Justifying the Norwegian whale hunt because other domestic animals are killed and eaten is not justification at all. You would have to prove that Norwegians were being deprived of protein and needed whale meat to sustain themselves. In fact your argument is self-defeating because you give examples of other forms of animal protein that are available to the people of Norway proving that they do not need to kill whales.

As to whether or not the Minke whale is endangered or not, I could throw some numbers at you, like the annual increase in the Norwegian whale kill, like the decline in all whale populations even the Minke (due to global warming especially), the enormous profits that Norwegian whalers are making exporting whale meat to Japan but those numbers are available to you via Google if you want them.

The Norwegian whale hunt is a greedy exploitation of an animal that is endangered world wide.

 

To thine ownself be true. W.S. CANADA

by sybil on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 12:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There is irony in your plea for consistency. So you want to use a global carnivore consistency to defend your country's inconsistency with the rest of the world regarding the ban on whale hunting.

Try as I might, I don't understand what you're driving at.

I am simply asking how feeding on minke whale is intrinsically worse than feeding on all the other kinds of meat eaten every day the world across. That is all.

As to the alleged cruelty, I agree this is a valid concern but am aware of no 'widespread agreement' that the hunt is inhumane.

I have noted that some 80% die instantaneously. Some take longer; these are put to death with rifles. And importantly, they aren't necessarily conscious just because they are alive. On the contrary, most are knocked unconscious by the shock from the harpoon grenade. In fact, even the small minority that remain alive and conscious for more than seconds are not necessarily in deep pain, thanks to endorphines. Think about how soldiers wounded in combat often report having felt little or no pain for minutes - typically, until the immediate threat had passed and the situation calmed down.

Your near-veganism and its motivation is not at issue. What is at issue is the double standards of decrying the whale hunt in principle, but accepting the consumption of other beasts, without explaining what makes the difference.

The question is particularly acute given that, as mentioned, harvesting this natural resource is a vastly less polluting and energy-intensive way to acquire meat than the production of livestock.

Justifying the Norwegian whale hunt because other domestic animals are killed and eaten is not justification at all. You would have to prove that Norwegians were being deprived of protein and needed whale meat to sustain themselves. In fact your argument is self-defeating because you give examples of other forms of animal protein that are available to the people of Norway proving that they do not need to kill whales.

But this is like saying that the people of Britain don't need to slaughter sheep. True; so what?

As to whether or not the Minke whale is endangered or not, I could throw some numbers at you, like the annual increase in the Norwegian whale kill, like the decline in all whale populations even the Minke (due to global warming especially), the enormous profits that Norwegian whalers are making exporting whale meat to Japan but those numbers are available to you via Google if you want them.

No, here you are asking me to do your work. If you wish to challenge the recommendations of the Scientific Committee of the International Whaling Committee, go ahead. But you can't expect me to take on that daunting task on your behalf, would you say?

And, once again, you are wrong about exports to Japan. There is no such thing at present, AFAIK (and I searched the Net in two languages to find trace of any). The 'enormous profits' are in any case a figment of the imagination.

The Norwegian whale hunt is a greedy exploitation of an animal that is endangered world wide.

Here we go again, with unsupported claims which, to all appearances, are false. How exactly do you propose to back this up?

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 02:40:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I posted a comment above on the Norway exporting whale meat to Japan with links.

The IWC numbers of minke whales in the North Atlantic have been disputed. I have some material on Minke Whale numbers if you want.

I backed up my final statement about greed with the proof of exports to Japan.

I am simply asking how feeding on minke whale is intrinsically worse than feeding on all the other kinds of meat eaten every day the world across. That is all.

It is not comparable because whales cannot be bred domestically for human consumption, their numbers are declining and cannot be replaced.

Since the Minke whale meat sent to Japan by Norway has been found to contain toxins like PCB's there is no point in promoting its consumption. Only 2% of Norwegians eat whale meat, they think it is so 'yesterday.'

Now please stop stating that my statements are "false" because you do not agree with them. I have backed up everything I posted.

Thanks for the discussion.

I'm off.


To thine ownself be true. W.S. CANADA

by sybil on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 04:36:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The IWC numbers of minke whales in the North Atlantic have been disputed. I have some material on Minke Whale numbers if you want.

Disputed by whom, then? On what basis?

I backed up my final statement about greed with the proof of exports to Japan.

No, you didn't. Your linked-to items note, correctly, that (i) Norway lifted its self-imposed ban on export of legal whale products in 2002; (ii) Japan at some point considered importing Norwegian whale meat. They do not show that any substantial export has actually occurred; let alone of:

the enormous profits that Norwegian whalers are making exporting whale meat to Japan

- or that:

[Norway] kills whales as an expensive export product to make money. Greed fuels the whale hunt not necessity.

These allegations have the dual distinction of being: (i) undocumented by anything you have put forth; and (ii) inconsistent with your own claim that:

the trade did not go well when the meat was found to be contaminated by toxins like PCB's.

You also dismiss my comparison to consumption of farm animals thus:

It is not comparable because whales cannot be bred domestically for human consumption, their numbers are declining and cannot be replaced.

Actually, it isn't correct that minke whales cannot, in principle, be bred domestically. And in fact, the Japanese have recently been considering creating enormous off-shore minke whale farms. Let's get clear on something here: Suppose this was done. Would you still object to the harvesting of this resource?

As to the declining numbers, you still haven't provided a single source for your claim that the minke whale is endangered in Norwegian waters.

Now please stop stating that my statements are "false" because you do not agree with them. I have backed up everything I posted.

Sorry, but I beg to differ.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 03:02:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From PBS
http://www.pbs.org/odyssey/odyssey/20050803_log_transcript.html

To summarize

The pursuit of the whale took over 1 hour. The harpoon was finally fired but hit the whale in the lower abdomen and the whale was not killed. It took 11 minutes before the first rifle shot was fired at the whale in an attempt to kill it. Six more rifle shots were fired in the next three minutes as the men on board struggled to winch the whale to the side of the boat. The harpoon appeared to have passed right through the lower abdomen, tearing a massive hole in the whale's body from which the intestines were protruding. As far as we can tell from the footage, the whale died at least 14 minutes and 28 seconds after the impact of the harpoon, although it may have been alive much longer.


To thine ownself be true. W.S. CANADA
by sybil on Fri Aug 26th, 2005 at 09:17:03 PM EST
I have checked up on this incident. Apparently, it was an ugly accident which may have been engendered by the reckless decision of this crew to hunt in bad weather. It has been condemned as unacceptable both by whaling inspectors and by other whalers.

In my opinion, the captain of this crew should lose his license. I don't know if this has happened, or will.

Such accidents are rare. It was documented in 2002, when every whaling boat had an inspector with a stop watch on board, that 80% of the animals die within seconds. That said, the fact that these things occur is a valid argument against whaling - unlike, in my opinion, any of the other considerations you have presented, which seem to me red herrings.

It is not enough to make me change my position, though, given that unacceptable accidents occur in all hunting, and even in all slaughter. Thousands of chickens were boiled alive in an accident last year; I personally still eat chicken. Hopefully, standards will continue to improve in both departments, making such incidents more and more infrequent, although it's unrealistic to expect them to never occur.

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 03:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think your article was an attempt to justify Norway's hunt of Minke whales
under the guise of an ethical argument that slaughter of whales and eating whale
meat is no more unethical than the slaughter of domestic animals.

The subjects do not compare. Domestic animals are raised as meat for human
consumption while Whales are protected under international law and are recognized
as having 'right to life' under international law. Norway breaks the ban on
whale hunting and the commercial export of whale products every year and declares
solo voce "our whale hunt is legal."

Furthermore, slaughterhouses are routinely inspected and there are laws to
protect animal suffering. Slaughterhouses that break these laws are punished
with fines.

The killing of whales out on the high seas cannot always be inspected. It is
monitored at sea sporadically by volunteer animal and environmental activists.
They have found that whales are persued for one to six hours, and after the first hit
with the harpoon, they can take minutes even an hour to die. After the grenade
harpoon explodes inside the whale, they are shot again and again.

There is no comparison.

There is no justification for Norway's whale hunt.

To thine ownself be true. W.S. CANADA

by sybil on Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 01:27:42 PM EST
I misunderstood this trick debate (none / 0)

I think your article was an attempt to justify Norway's hunt of Minke whales under the guise of an ethical argument that slaughter of whales and eating whale
meat is no more unethical than the slaughter of domestic animals.

I resent your baseless allegation of deliberate trickery. I have been completely honest and straightforward in everything I have said.

I regret I have to say this, but if there's trickery involved around here, it will have to be this:

Whales are protected under international law and are recognized as having 'right to life' under international law. Norway breaks the ban on whale hunting and the commercial export of whale products every year and declares solo voce "our whale hunt is legal."

That is incorrect, and you surely know it. I explain why it is wrong in the article:

Contrary to myth among certain activists, the Norwegian hunt is consistent with international law. The reason is that Norway lodged an objection to the moratorium on commercial whaling passed by the IWC in 1982, which exempts it from the ban under existing rules.

Not only that: I pointed this out in this reply to you on Booman Tribune, complete with a link to BBC News. Why do you keep repeating this falsehood over and over?

The world's northernmost desert wind.

by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 03:41:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]
By the way, it is also wrong that Norway is not allowed to export whale products. Under IWC rules, it is allowed to do so to other countries which are legally permitted to whale. These include Japan, Iceland, Russia, and Peru. The only export of Norwegian whale products at present, as far as I know, is a modest one to Iceland.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 03:49:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Arguing for or against vegetarianism or (especially) veganism is pointless. It is analogous to the pro-choice vs. pro-life debate. If you believe that killing animals is morally wrong you're not going to be convinced by anything us omnivores say. The reverse is also true.

I tend to regard vegetarians a bit like those who believe in sexual abstinence before marriage. I completely fail to comprehend the moral basis for their beliefs, however,   as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on others, the only people they are depriving of pleasure is themselves. In other words not someone you want to date, but otherwise who cares, they're perfectly fine as friends as long as they don't start hectoring you on your 'immoral' behaviour.

by MarekNYC on Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 02:49:01 PM EST
I agree with that - although I can understand and respect ethically based vegetarians. But what really irks me is when people slam, as a matter of principle, the killing of only certain animals without explaining what sets these apart. Whales and seals are cases in point.

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 03:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Um...Sybil/Sirocco, check out this lovely wildlife print.
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
"Warriors Truce"
Diana Beach

Well, alrighty then...please pardon the intrusion.  Now I think I'll just softly back out of here and mosey on into the kitchen, like a good little cowgirl, and make a nice, refreshing Norwegian dessert.  As you were.  ;)

by caldonia on Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 04:05:58 PM EST
Big virtual hug... Hope you like the cream!

The world's northernmost desert wind.
by Sirocco (sirocco2005ATgmail.com) on Sat Aug 27th, 2005 at 04:19:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I did, it was scrumptious!  (((Thank you))) again for introducing me to it.  
by caldonia on Sun Aug 28th, 2005 at 10:35:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I ate some beluga and bowhead whale last summer while a guest in an Inuit village.  After trying some solo, I put some on my pizza.

It probably wasn't as good as your steak.  It was fatty and not very flavorful.

by Media Revolution on Mon Aug 29th, 2005 at 12:15:44 PM EST


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