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Relationship killers or Why doesn't anybody stay together anymore

by Agnes a Paris Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 04:30:49 PM EST

Update [2006-11-30 15:9:34 by Agnes a Paris]: With a lighter tone.
I still remember what I was told on a very good training session when I first started work in project finance. The guy performing the training had worked 25 years as a project financier on both banker's and sponsor's (ie corporate entity) side and he really knew what he was talking about. So he told us about the 5 project killers, which I was amazed to find out how they apply to relationships as well:
1- Political project
2- Geographical remoteness
3- Technical developper still at the beginning of the learning curve
4- Flawed assessment of market needs
As for the 5th one, I forgot, hence the failure of some of my relationships, I guess ;-)

The list may be a start for a discussion and a bit of fun, as Kcurie did with an extract of the dating Rules. It seems obvious that geographical distance puts a strain on a relationship, but what about the learning curve stuff ? Original story below the fold.


Seems to be a lot of Phil Collins in the air tonight ...

Three months ago, I lost my oldest friend to a f... motorbike accident. We had made our first stealthy forays into adult life, and the bushes of Ivory Coast, almost 20 years ago, on a Super Tenere. Guess his parents would never have let us drive that thing at the tender age of fourteen; mine did not give a damn. Behind him, he left a promising career as a climatologist, a wife and a young son, and me, looking back into that age of innocence with mixed feelings of regret, longing, and gratitude for the time we'd had together. I'll never be able to watch a Triumph Speed Triple the same way.

I thought year 2005 had taken consistent enough a crop of the people I cared about. Some crossing to the other side, some disappearing in the haze of silence or carried away by the tempest of unrelenting conflicts. Maybe 2006 will prove me wrong.
I still cling to hope, against the odds. In a few days is my birthday, and another anniversary day, one year since I've been trying to salvage a relationship that means almost the world to me, and I'm doing my best as the both of us are still together.
My best friend is still by my side too; considering how often I've moved places, a 13-year friendship does mean something. Another very dear, even if more recent, friend came back to me when I was lost and broken, after months of silence on my side.

Around me, couples and marriages fall apart; was having dinner yesterday with a friend who is going through divorce after a 10-year relationship. Life is a rollercoaster, sometimes you just have to let go. Let go of disappointing relationships. As I have decided to do so tonight; someone so anxious over his PhD and maintaining control over his feelings and emotions that he does not see his college years friend drifting apart and sends his more recent acquaintances packing. Nurture relationships with people who let you be who you are, whom you can open to and who open to you, who have an affectionate way to tell you when you are wrong, who carry you until you can carry on.
Such relationships appear to be scarce, strangely enough though, as I move on the path of life, I find there are always people there for you, to be found sometimes in unexpected places, like blogs and fora.

To end another very personal diary:
One of my favorite quotes from Rene Char to end with and a very personal translation to go with it.
Le reel parfois desaltere l'esperance
C'est pourquoi, contre toute attente, l'esperance survit.

Reality sometimes quenches the thirst for hope
Hence, against all odds, hope survives.

The lyrics of one of my three all-favorite songs by Pink Floyd "Coming back to life"

Where were you when I was burned and broken
While the days slipped by from my window watching
Where were you when I was hurt and I was helpless
Because the things you say and the things you do surround me
While you were hanging yourself on someone else's words
Dying to believe in what you heard
I was staring straight into the shining sun

Lost in thought and lost in time
While the seeds of live and the seeds of change were planted
Outside the rain fell dark and slow
While I pondered on this dangerous but irresistible past times
I took a heavenly ride through one silence
I knew the moment had arrived
For killing the past and coming back to life

I took a heavenly ride trough our silence
I knew the waiting had begin
And headed straight... into the shining sun

Display:
we should all learn to value them more. Life is both fragile and short. The other stuff like money or buying things or achieving recognition or advancing a career are just distractions.
by observer393 on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 10:22:28 PM EST
thank you for this diary. Sorry.
by observer393 on Wed Nov 29th, 2006 at 10:23:40 PM EST
Agnes, nice to see you back.  sorry about the hurt.

I've wanted to say this before, but you were not on the site for a while,,,somehow it seems right now.  I mentioned to you a while back, of a friend in the US who was in the same business as you, and had told me she would like to communicate with you.  You graciously said yes, and I gave her you email,,,,and she was diagnosed with breast cancer a few days later.  

Things are looking OK for her at this point.  Some problems with the surgery, but still it looks like it will be fine--cancer free as of now.  But running her business here in the US is more than enough for her, so thoughts of Europe are put aside, at least for now.

Just thought I should not leave our earlier communication hanging.  All the best to you.

by wchurchill on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 12:29:02 AM EST
I am really sorry to hear about your friend, whchurchill. Being in decently good health, I feel disease is one of the most unfair things looming over us, because there is so little to be done from relatives/acquaintances perspective, just wait and fumble that we cannot do more.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 02:28:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry for what you're going through, and I agree that long-standing friendships are too precious to let end. But marriages and/or love relationships? When the going gets tough, the wise go shopping.
by Matt in NYC on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 01:57:36 AM EST
Forgive me the comparison, very inadequate as for the context (emotions vs economy) but love/marriage relationships are very much like the stock market. When you lose faith in the value of a share, you'd better take your losses and run.

However, coming back to true life, as long as there is still faith in a possible common future, and genuine willingness on both sides to make things work, I'd say it's worth trying. But this is all very personal.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 03:40:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sorry for the hurt you've suffered. I'm not very good at this, feeling emotions and empathy is still very new to me and I really haven't developed a vocabulary to match how I feel inside over so many things since my transition. And this is yet one other.

So forgive my clumsiness and my irrelevant asides.

I have never been good at friendship, my previous self never got the knack and I still don't know how to reachout, or where to reach out to if truth be told. Yet in transition I lost friends of 35 and 25 years standing, they coulnd't deal with the new dynamic, or maybe they couldn't bear to lose what they understood..I dunno. Being selfish I just made it all about me and was hurt by their rejection.

I have never experienced grief, never lost a true friend or close relation in death and I fear it. I don't have adult defences for my emotions anymore, I try to imagine them but I cry too often and easily to believe I've mastered it.

So I don't know how you feel, in some ways I fear feeling as you do now. However, please don't think me insensitive when I say that in comparison with the pale winter's emotions of a male, I have learnt that these emotions, for both good and ill, are what make us human. More than anything it is those abilities to feel, to empathise, that make us know we are alive.

That is scant comfort I know, but as I said, I am an awkward friend at best. Be well and hope you find your happier self soon.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 10:25:27 AM EST
I say that in comparison with the pale winter's emotions of a male, I have learnt that these emotions, for both good and ill, are what make us human

This almost sounds like "males lack what makes us human".

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 10:31:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
well I know quite a few women who consider males to be subhuman ;-)

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 11:15:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
and a few women who would give anything to have been born a man and consider women are subhuman ;-))

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 02:42:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Christ Miguel !! I start off by saying that I'm awkward at this sort of thing and then you f*ck me over for not quite expressing it in a perfectly agreeable way.

give us a break !!

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 11:43:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you never noted how Migu's ears are pointed ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 12:44:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru, how come someone so truly valuable as you are sometimes comes up as so unduly lacking self-confidence ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 02:40:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now I've calmed down I can respond more temperately.

The dominant phrase in that sentence, ie the one with the verb is "I have learnt....". That's me doing the learning.

It was an amazing revelation to me to experience the depth of emotions, to bathe in them as I did. I've explained previously the differences in how I perceived emotion twixt male and female,
http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2006/7/17/74110/4055
but perhaps I didn't emphasize the extent to which it validated my sense of developing femininity. However much I was overwhelmed by the waves of emotional feeling, I was ewxcited and grateful for it.

So it is only natural that, having come from an unwanted masculinity to a much desired femininity, I should extol the virtues of my new internal environment.

I did not mean to say men don't have emotions, nor to suggest that men are less than human, and believe me I have heard and seen enough anti-male prejudice from women to believe it is strong undercurrent of the female culture, but I have never been a party to it. Indeed I am horrified that my poor phrasing, structured more in support of Agnes than any other consideration, should have been taken as to suggest such an abhorrent thought. I am genuinely hurt by your suggestion that I might believe such a thing.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 03:15:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen, once again, if you allow me, I think both Migeru and ceebs were having a good snark, and nothing is to be taken seriously. I know by hard learnt experience that one sometimes reacts in a genuine, emotional way to a comment that was ironical but meant no harm. In French we call it "second degre".
I do understand how you may have felt, as I tend to take things much to heart myself.
See Sven's comment.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 03:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I can only appologise for myself, at times I can be an excessively piss taking bastard, and at the moment am feeling guilty and a little insensitive. My only excuse is that I spent much of the morning dealing with some rather extreme femenists, and so had my respect for other peoples feelings dialed right back after that sesion, and unfortunately people around me occasionally catch the edge of my sense of humour, I should probably stay away from the internet in cases like that.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 04:10:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Myself, I hate men at this very moment.
Still cannot shake the feelings of anger, betrayal, and having been used, by someone who didn't know better than telling me "I know you are in trouble, but I need some space right now and you're getting on my nerves". Is someone like that to be labelled a friend ? Bollocks to him.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 03:43:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Godz, I always thought people were joking when they said "A friend in need....is a pain in the arse". That's shocking, no he is not a friend, he was never a friend.

Paint his name on a plate and smash it, think of him no more. I am so sorry, I hope these mean tides ebb soon.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 03:50:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem is that I blame myself, I might have been too demanding, after all, he was busy with his new girlfriend and his PhD.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 03:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, don't blame yourself. You're his friend and he yours. Friends should be able to call for help. Not exclusively, you can't intrude on a relationship, nor too much on work, but need should be honoured.

Smash the plate and walk away. In this guys are better, they get piseed, wake up feeling bad and then forget...everything and move on. I don't know about girls yet, chocolate and red wine ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 04:03:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I am not that into chocolate. My trick is an at least 5 miles swim and sleeping over it which is a good alternative to sending 10 texts in a row to say how little I think of him/her ; I now manage to store the texts without sending them ;-)
My female mates do the Haagen Dazs/ Ben& Jerry's pint binge a lot, though.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 04:36:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yea, repeatedly sending texts to say how little you care is one of those mixed messages.

I'd avoid that if I were you.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 04:59:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My trick is an at least 5 miles swim

For real?!

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.

by marco on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 03:47:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I do at least 7 hours sports a week.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 04:50:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But FIVE miles!  In one shot?  If so, you are my new hero!  (I have to admit: If I swam 5 miles -- and did not die from it -- I would be too exhausted to feel down myself.)

Truth unfolds in time through a communal process.
by marco on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 05:30:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen, I am happy to have the opportunity to write something that may be supportive to you, I have very much admired your contributions and the sensitivity of your comments since you joined ET.
In transition times, your true self tends to edge towards the extremes, and you never know when the transition is over, really. You may feel yours is complete, it may just be underway and the self it will unveil is going to be a mix of your old self and the changes you decided to welcome.
I am still in a transition period, and it's been lasting more than 2 years now. I have a better sight of the new self in construction, and rejecting the old patterns according to which I had built my adult life is no longer relevant. I now I cannot shed some behaviour patterns, the best thing being smoothing them and adjusting them to the circumstances.
Enough about me.
There is no ground for fearing the suffering of loss, it is so unpredictable that all you can do is make the most of every day.
I cannot let you say you've never been good at friendships, you just do not come up as that kind of person. Friendships involve a good deal of trust and letting go, and for that you need to find trustworthy people, so I fell it has little to do with being good or bad at. We are all bad at relationships, but we are perfectible.
Thank you again for your earnest and moving comment.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 02:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You may feel yours is complete, it may just be underway and the self it will unveil is going to be a mix of your old self and the changes you decided to welcome.

Hmm, in some ways I have changed considerably in the last 4 years, in others barely at all. I am forever the frog on the lily pond, halfway to shore. Each time I jump I'm halfway there, but never quite.

It is like if you live in one country till your mid forties, if you move to another you will always be a "foreigner". However hard you try to integrate, however much you love the culture, your accent and manners mark you out as "not from round here". That's me, too much testosterone in my past to really understand being a girl.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 03:30:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Helen, believe me I've never understood all that stuff about "being a girl" either and I was born that way plus I'm now in my FIFTIES...! :-(  Still don't know whether the feminine mystique thingy is some kind of unspeakably profound chtonic/existential mystery I'm too dippy to quite get the hang of or some kind of collective con-trick.

(Sometimes suspect I'd have reacted exactly the same way re "being a boy" if I'd been born on the other side of the great divide... Ah well.)

"Ignoring moralities is always undesirable, but doing so systematically is really worrisome." Mohammed Khatami

by eternalcityblues (parvati_roma aaaat libero.it) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 04:19:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think it's more about being a person.

Some people seem to do everything on autopilot. You know they're not really there when you're talking to them. They exist inside their own heads as images they've created for themselves, mostly based on external expectations. Other people don't seem to exist for them at all. They don't have lives, they have lifestyles. Although if you have no real sense of personhood I suppose it's hard to grant it to others.

It's not a gender thing, because both men and women do it - although they seem to do it in different ways, with a slant towards different idealised fantasies.

This - tangentially - is why I'm so implacably hostile to so much advertising and marketing. There's nothing wrong with selling products, but selling unrealistic fantasies is a rape of people's ability to dream and create new possibilities for themselves on their own terms. It also seeps its poison into people's ability to make honest connections with others.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 07:53:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I got bounced out a couple of times when trying to answer to Helen. Another try at it.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Nov 30th, 2006 at 04:33:51 PM EST
I resent Phil Collins. It needs to be said.

Relationships, friendships, family, work, own free time - they all need proper chunks of time management. To me, it's not much different than managing your available time in the work slot - cue in a zillion time management gurus. But everything well and good and wonderfully structured - as long as it works. Because in the end it's just a tool - it can break down as easily.

As for geopgraphical remoteness; I've done some experience in the relationship department on that one. Me mostly in the Netherlands, she mostly USA or England. To this day I don't think it was the distance that ultimately wrecked us, but it was the next item on your little list: the learning curve. Though I feel the distance execebrated exisitng disharmony.

Thanks for the diary, Agnes. And a happy birthday to come.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Fri Dec 1st, 2006 at 07:05:13 AM EST
Agnes, Helen, Eternal, you are leaving me breathless!
I am out of practice at soft emotions after one-too-many hurts, but obviously they remain.

I enjoy everyone here, but as women, I admire your depth.  I am here for whatever I can do and I would be proud to know you as friends.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Mon Dec 4th, 2006 at 02:11:35 PM EST


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