Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

City Rankings

by nanne Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 10:15:21 AM EST

What city is the best place in the world to live in for us rootless cosmopolitans? If we assume that we are all close-minded materialists (rational economic actors) and care only about the income/cost relation the answer may very well be... Berlin.

This at least would seem to be the conclusion of the most recent prices and earnings report from UBS (pdf), which was kindly linked to here by lacordaire

From the diaries - whataboutbob


Part of the discussion in the Son of American Pie Fight which I find interesting is whether the living standard in the US is really higher than in Europe. The UBS report is really interesting in that it provides a comparison of more than just prices -- it also includes wages, working times and vacation days.

It only includes the three largest US cities plus Miami, which presents something of a gap.

According to this city ranking, London is the most expensive place on earth, which I think is probably correct. However, I seemed to remember another city ranking in which Moscow was ranked as the most expensive city, which would conflict with this study. Sure enough, there seem to be at least three different rankings, with different results each.

How are we rootless cosmopolitans to decide?

The problem with these studies is that they use fluctuating currency rates. Surely, when it comes to decisions on living it shouldn't be too much to ask to provide a normalised standard? Say over the past 3 years?

On to the list. It will of course surprise you all that Berlin (with its 18% unemployment rate) is the best city in the world. Well, not according to living quality (it's a decent 16th), but according to purchasing power for your job.

On the 10th page of the UBS document you will find a ranking of the cities by purchasing power/hour of work, first gross, then net and following that the annual purchasing power calculated by a comparison of working hours. This ranking is somewhat strange because it ignores rent. Rent, though, is supposedly a major part of the picture for most of us and can also be taken as an indicator for property prices for those of us who'd rather buy. If rent is included, we get a completely different ranking. How different? Well, see here:

World cities by purchasing power                                                                                                            
RankCityGross Income/H.Net Income/H.Prices Incl. RentGross Inc./PricesNet Inc./PricesAverage PP/H
1Zurich  115,10124,2087,30131,84142,27137,06
2Geneva  111,00115,4085,20130,28135,45132,86
3Berlin  84,3082,1064,40130,90127,48129,19
4Frankfurt87,6085,5069,30126,41123,38124,89
5Copenhagen118,2095,7086,30136,96110,89123,93
6Oslo117,00110,8094,60123,68117,12120,40
7Brussels86,2078,2068,50125,84114,16120,00
8Munich84,9084,5071,20119,24118,68118,96
9Luxembourg84,0098,1076,60109,66128,07118,86
10Auckland  65,7073,4060,60108,42121,12114,77
11Dublin  88,30104,6084,30104,74124,08114,41
12Los Angeles86,3097,0080,60107,07120,35113,71
13Helsinki84,9089,1077,30109,83115,27112,55
14Sydney  74,6079,6069,00108,12115,36111,74
15Chicago  88,3094,7082,20107,42115,21111,31
16Toronto74,2080,4071,40103,92112,61108,26
17Vienna78,7081,2074,00106,35109,73108,04
18Montreal74,1077,3071,20104,07108,57106,32
19Lyon69,0070,5066,00104,55106,82105,68
20Stockholm80,7077,0075,80106,46101,58104,02
21Amsterdam77,0072,7073,00105,4899,59102,53
22Miami67,6074,0070,5095,89104,96100,43
23New York  100,00100,00100,00100,00100,00100,00
24Barcelona57,6066,6065,6087,80101,5294,66
25Nicosia55,4069,5066,2083,69104,9894,34
26Madrid53,9064,3066,2081,4297,1389,27
27Tokyo78,0087,4093,4083,5193,5888,54
28Paris68,5068,8078,1087,7188,0987,90
29London89,2096,00105,5084,5591,0087,77
30Milan56,1059,9068,5081,9087,4584,67

New York is indexed as 100. The last column shows an average of gross and net hourly income in terms of purchasing power. This is done because the survey admits not to have the perfect rates and because taxes will to some extent provide you with free or discounted amenities. There's no adjustment for the number of hours worked because it is assumed that free time is equally valuable to hours worked. We're lazy rootless cosmopolitans, after all...

Now discerning observers will have noticed that Berlin is, indeed, only #3 here. I suggest, however, that we disqualify Zurich and Geneva because they always win at this kind of thing, because the BNP which drafted the report is Swiss and thereby automatically biased, and furthermore because these aren't cities but rather towns. You can't be cosmopolitan in a town...

Seriously, no disrespect to Switzerland, which is probably one of the best places in the world to live in. I don't know Zurich, but Geneva is stunningly beautiful. The real lesson is that you will get a more comfortable life in much of Europe than in the largest cities of the USA -- and that you should avoid London like the plague (Dutch saying) if moving there doesn't give you at least a 30% payrise.

Display:
The real lesson is that you will get a more comfortable life in much of Europe than in the largest cities of the USA..

I've been to all but 3 of the cities listed and can't quibble with this assessment, but there is a lot more to living than money. My wife and I have been looking for a small city for retirement time spent in the US.  My wife grew up in one of the largest cities in the world, Mexico City, but neither of us have any desire to live in a big city now.  As an estate agent in one small city told us, "our city has everything the larger ones have, only in smaller amounts, and you don't have to travel so far."  Not completely accurate, but close enough.  As long as it has what we need, it's fine. We are tired of city crowds, traffic and urban sprawl. For my European money, I think Zurich is a good pick, also, but Helsinki is also wonderful (in the summer). My wife and I thought Sydney was beautiful, but too many people and to much traffic. Canberra, being much smaller, was more to our liking.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears

by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:15:47 PM EST
Yes measuring how good a city is to live in is about a lot more than the measurables. It is highly subjective. To say one city is better than another is highly tenuous as it really depends on who you are and what you look for. It is a bit like I can tell you what my favorite music is but you may not like it and may even regard it as trash. I dont really like all this studies/experts tell us that one thing is better than another. I think I prefer to judge for myself.
by observer393 on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 12:00:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
all this ranking is addressing is purchasing power.  They're not making any assessment of the subjective qualities of these places.  From my experience the Swiss cities are lovely but boring as hell for a non native.   Whereas Dublin is a lot of fun.  Others might think I'm nuts.

This ranking does explain a lot of my gut feel on this debate though.  Our experience in Europe was London for 6+ years.  Horribly expensive with a rotten climate (and we were there for the property bust so our housing was fairly cheap compared to now).  I'm a decade out of date as well.  The highest American city is LA.  I'll make an assumption that SF (where we left for London) would be roughly the same on purchasing power.  So my bias is based on leaving a highly ranked, highly livable city with a good climate for one without those attractions.

Given my personal failings with languages, most of the rest really aren't options not to mention that getting residency might be difficult for any American just showing up and asking to be let in (since like a complete fuckwit I gave up UK perm residency to simplify paperwork...)

by HiD on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 02:59:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It definitely depends what stage in your life you are in. I might want to retire in a small town as well, for now the big city life is more attractive. I already get kind of cramped when I go to Bremen...
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 02:25:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
it means i do not have to regret the Parisian' "quality of life " since i left for my sunny place where i walk on the beach pretty much every morning before working (priceless ;-) ).
by fredouil (fredouil@gmailgmailgmail.com) on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 at 11:01:55 PM EST
I don't know about "rootless cosmopolitans," but Money magazine ranked Colorado Springs as best! (I bet they didn't actually visit, though.)

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2006/top100/bigcities.html

Also there is a calculator there, but it only covers the U.S.

by asdf on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 12:21:05 AM EST
Colorado Springs is McChurch central, right? I couldn't live there for cultural reasons. Out of the top 10 on money magazine only San Diego and New York would be options.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 02:33:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
San Diego is the largest conservative-leaning city in America.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 03:52:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Shows how little I know! It's probably all those army bases over there (found out thru wiki).
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:26:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know the history very well but as my friend said "it's a small city scaled up to a big city population."

Too bad as the weather there is as close to perfect as it gets.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 12:47:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Friend of mine who wanted to move out of Britain decided that that was the perfect place to move. as far as I know he's still out there

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 01:07:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
From what I've seen there are a disproportionate number of Brits out here in California. I assume the weather is the basic reason.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 02:09:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in his case he had to get back for the start of the University womens soceer season.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 03:38:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yup.  we took a hard look at the place and ran away.  Horrible traffic, wingers all over and run like Haiti.  
by HiD on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:29:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? I have deep-blue relatives there... they must be in trouble.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 03:50:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would guess it's fairly close to even, something like 55/45 republican/democrat. In most cities of that size I would think it's typically closer to 65/35 democrat/republican.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:26:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
the city is more balanced. North County is wingnut land.
by HiD on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 05:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I lived in Colo Springs back in the 60s. Coming from a completely flat topography, I found C Sprgs and Colorado's  Old West/gold rush history fascinating. I climbed Pikes Peak within 2 weeks of arrival and spent countless hours roaming the mountains!  But that was a long time ago, and the town's population was only 60,000.  Housing was cheap.  We paid $125/month for a 2 bedroom bungalow with a front porch view of the Peak.  My wife didn't like it because the winters were too cold and the humidity too low, so we never went back and don't consider it a retirement candidate.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 02:43:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Brisbane, Australia is not even on the list. I suppose they (you) wouldn't consider it city (rather town) with it's around 2, 5 million people. But I do like it and I find it really "livable" I live here for more then 8 years now and wouldn't change it. I thank God every single day for sending me here, ha-ha. Standard of living is pretty good for most of the population, weather is just beautiful...people are "lazy" and relaxed...prices of real estate are still manageable and houses are huge and with swimming pools (most of them or at least a lot of them)...People "live" outside most of the year, cafés, restaurants, verandas and backyards...Salaries are getting better all though they are still smaller then Sydney or Melbourne but living costs are also smaller here. More then 1000 people move here every week so it's growing rapidly...come...you will not regret, ha-ha .Or at least visit, we have a Gold and Sunshine Coast near by...
Here more information...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane#Economy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane#Climate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane#Culture

And some of my photos...



Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 03:09:32 AM EST
Thanks for the photos! I wouldn't consider a city of 2.5 million 'rather a town' -- anyway that was only a half-serious jab at the Swiss towns at most (both of whom are less than 0.5 million in terms of population). The report only had data on a limited number of cities which is due to UBS' global spread as a bank, I would reckon. Otherwise Brisbane might well have made it, Sydney and Auckland are high enough up the list so the purchasing power in Australia & New Zealand seems to be good.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 03:22:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know why photos are so tiny but you'll get picture I hope....
More of them...



Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 03:20:03 AM EST
And some more...



Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 03:31:37 AM EST
Hi vbo. I actually stayed in one of the 3 towers shown in your picture of all the skyscrapers of the Gold Coast. But it's not quite Brisbane (it is 100km South of it).

I was sorry I could not find the time to meet you last summer.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 09:27:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gold Coast is about 60 km from where I live and say 75 km from Brisbane CBD. It's in a
- "Brisbane metropolitan area"  now covers parts of several adjoining local government areas including Beaudesert Shire, Caboolture Shire, Gold Coast City, Ipswich City, Logan City, Pine Rivers Shire, Redcliffe City and Redland Shire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brisbane

This photo I took from Q 1 the highest building on Gold Coast and they say it's world's tallest residential building .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q1_%28building%29

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 09:52:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're all wierd. living in cities. I've done it and the quality of life isn't worth it. Ok I can't earn much money but i can see  this from my back window.


it's ten minutes to the beach. there are five cars stolen within 25 miles per year.(And the police think three of those are done for the insurance)

If i need a cosmopolitan lifestyle it's about an hour away, and if i really have a craving it's about 4 hours away

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 03:49:56 AM EST
Ah..this is what I see from my backyard (I leave 15 km from CBD...

And this is my back yard...

And we are one income (and we consider our selves) middle class family...


Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein

by vbo on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:28:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:51:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Because the city is the locus of civilisation.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:57:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No matter how idyllic was (at the beginning and I spent few years there) living at Wellington NZ with it's around 268 000 citizens I just couldn't stand it for a long time. I am a city girl and even if I fantasize that once when I am older I'll live at some village by the sea I am not sure for how long I can stand silence and isolation from civilization, to be honest. Even Brisbane being in a way "county town" (but it's getting better every they)  makes me want to go sometimes...All though I am not sure I would know how to live in a "jungle" like London, New York etc...

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 08:30:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The only city that I would happily live in.

In collegge, many years ago, I was a geography major.  My senior project was a historical geography of Paris.  We were in a "Radical" Geography class which put a great deal of emphasis on economic issues and gave at least a nod to the Marxist analysis.

The title of my project was taken from the old WWI doughboy song, "How Ya Gonna Keep Em Down On The Farm After They've Seen Paree?"

The only city that I envy people who live there.  I like my little spot in the Sonoma Hills bordering Napa County, and its nice to be close to San Francisco, but...

"I said, 'Wait a minute, Chester, You know I'm a peaceful man...'" Robbie Robertson

by NearlyNormal on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 02:00:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nice. Any old runied farmhouses in need of a bit of tlc going for £50k around there ?

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 12:19:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm sure we can get you one in Southern Bohemia, in good condition too.

I know someone who knows someone...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 12:22:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting. I hear there are some good bargains to be had if you know the right people. Trouble is I don't speak czech, but may not be problematic in the right circumstances. But....is there a profit in selling on? Who else is buying ?

Know anybody who knows someone in spain ?

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 12:40:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, not in Spain.

Seriously, if you are have £50k to invest in Southern Bohemian property we know the right people...

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 12:50:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have the money. But it's the profit over a year I would like guidance upon.

keep to the Fen Causeway
by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 02:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you should avoid London like the plague (Dutch saying) if moving there doesn't give you at least a 30% payrise

Or allow you to escape BushCo and land a job in 4 months with absolutely no personal contacts.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:04:38 AM EST
In these surveys, do they take numbers for the metropolitan area or for the city itself? In Paris, it makes a huge difference as the city proper is only 2 million people out of the 8-11 million (depending on where you stop) metro area. And obviously the cost of living in Paris itself is higher than that of living in the suburbs - which would be counted as part of the city in London, for instance.


In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:53:49 AM EST
What do you call "suburbs" of London?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:56:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Neasden and Penge. You couldn't have more suburban names...

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 05:08:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I suppose you could call all of outer London "suburbs"


The population of Inner London is about 3M, and that of Outer London 4.5M.

To address Jerome's point, though, some of the more expensive London Boroughs are in "Outer London".

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 05:15:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But really London is everything inside the M25, which is larger than the administrative boundary.

But the suburbs of london and the dormitory towns stretch for 10s of miles along the main railways and roads. There's barely any green going west of london until well past Heathrow, going south down to Redhill, north up the M1 to luton and beyond.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 12:28:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's what I suspected. Jerome's argument falls flat if you have to include everything inside the M25 in "London" and reserve "suburbs" for what lies outside it.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 12:36:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Unfortunately the report doesn't give information on this...

According to the report, London is about 35% more expensive than Paris with rent included, excluding rent it's about 15% more expensive. Is this roughly in line with how you experience the difference?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 10:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It sounds plausible.

As far as I'm concerned (family with 3 kids), my job is a LOT better paid in Paris than what I'd get in London, if you take into account rent (for an equivalent place in an equivalent neighborhood), schools and taxes. The pay is higher in absolute terms in London, but lower in practice for families. If you want to live in London, you have to live really, really far from the center unless you have really, really high income (i.e. the kind where you get hundred of thousands or more in bonuses or own your own company)

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 11:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have really fallen in love with the city. As a dedicated foodie I just can't get over all of the markets and shops selling the most out of the world fresh food and produce.

And barely a supermarket to be seen. Tho' even Carrefour is way better than tesco

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 12:24:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Best city in the world.. for living???

Barcelona.... no doubt about it....

Well... there is a little problem if you come form outside of Barcelona... yeah.. it is called buying a flat...or renting one.. Berlin is so so cheap...that maybe is better Berlin...if you are very short on money

But if you belong to the city...becuase your parents, cousins, granpa live there and have a flat...or know it well to get one cheap.. or you do not mind sharing with spanish people...

then well, there is no point in arguing, it is Barcelona that's it..The cost of  living except the flat is just low, the qulity is high, food puah... stratospheric, transport very good, wetaher wow, architecture the best period, night-life.. not as good as Granada but given the dimension of the city it can be compared with any other big city and then a little bit better...the perfect mixture ..not so spanish crazy as granada but also not as Eruopean and with as many things as London..in the perfect middle.

If we include the cost of the flat.. I would say Berlin, Barcelona and Rome neck and neck.... as much as I like London, Firenze, Paris, Geneve, Zurich, KOln, Venice, Amsterdam,Madrid....nothing beats those three citie taking all into account. Choosing one is a matter of taste...and maybe flats..

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 05:59:21 AM EST
During my brief look at getting a job in Europe, I would have looked at Spain first but there is no tech industry!

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 12:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You said you were a software consultant?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 06:23:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm an electrical engineer, I do semiconductor test engineering. Ireland, Scotland, France, and Germany all have a good number of jobs in my field, and England has a few. Spain, Portugal, and Italy don't have much of any from what I've seen.

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 01:37:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There are some photovoltaics producers in Spain, maybe those?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 03:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
SMT, the french italian company, should have some facilities in South Italy???
As an aside, living there with a decent job/salary for a good foreign company top Zürich any day, dare I say.
But it´s a lot more difficult to get to such a constellation... I would sign any day.
An insider Tip.

La répartie est dans l'escalier. Elle revient de suite.
by lacordaire on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 04:35:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It can't be for lack of engineers of material scientists (at least there was no shortage of graduates 5 to 10 years ago.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 05:00:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep.  Donkeys don´t like it when you tech them, but I see bikes once in a while.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 03:07:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
We met a wonderful family during a visit to Barcelona. They invited us to spend a Sunday with the family at their country house North of the city. It was great, and then I found out that one of my ggg grandfathers was from there.  Needless to say, I have a soft spot in my heart for Barcelona. A great city.

I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell. _ Blood Sweat & Tears
by Gringo (stargazing camel at aoldotcom) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 02:55:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey kcurie, if nuclear physics ever gets boring, the Barcelona Tourism Board should make room for you! Wow, you made the sale, I'm coming to visit. Barcelona meetup 2007 anyone?

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 05:27:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
J eje.. thankfully I am not in nuclear physics.

I would not know how to tell a difference between a nucelar and a H bomb.. je e jeje

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 05:09:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nuclear physicists do much more prosaic things than that, for instance medical physics.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 05:56:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yep. For my money Berlin is the last affordable cool metropolis. I totally understand why nanne is enamored of the place.

The fact is that what we're experiencing right now is a top-down disaster. -Paul Krugman
by dvx (dvx.clt ät gmail dotcom) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 07:27:17 AM EST
It's unbelievable that Berlin is that cheap...I visited Berlin some 35 years ago... (my God !!!)and met some great people there...Is there any difference between West and East Berlin in prices of real estate?

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind...Albert Einstein
by vbo on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 08:36:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes and no. The most expensive parts still are in the city's southwest, but old edgy western neighbourhoods like Kreuzberg, Neukölln and Wedding are still dirt cheap, and the old city center (Mitte) which was in the east has become more expensive, along with the hip Prenzlauer Berg district which has seen a lot of creeping gentrification.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 09:38:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Word around the property market is that East Berlin is the last bonanza left to exploit.

If you buy, buy soon. Prices are set to rocket.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 12:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I really don't see any skyrocketing happening. Barring investors pushing themselves into an ever growing bubble, that is. But that would take a lot of investors. Berlin is a city once built for 4.5 million, with a stagnant population of 3.3 million. There's a lot of room, a lot of empty apartments, a lot of undeveloped plots, and property prices in the surrounding countryside are extremely low as well.

The supply is simply very big relative to the demand and until the demographics change it will take a very large group of investors to artificially drive prices up. In the east, incidentally, the demographics are better than in the west. Increasing property prices in eastern districts like Friedrichshain and Prenzlauer Berg are likely to be met by decreasing prices in Charlottenburg and Steglitz.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 01:58:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That's what the British do: the export their property bubble and sell to each other. It's pretty disgusting. And the UK "property industry" has set its sights on Germany.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. -- Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 05:02:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Herd animals go to Eastern Europe. Smart investors go to Casablanca.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 11:03:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the really smart investors buy property anywhere but the US and borrow dollars to do it....

"The future is already here -- it's just not very evenly distributed" William Gibson
by ChrisCook (cojockathotmaildotcom) on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 02:14:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For me, the diary and several comments here pretty much demolished any sense to general rankism of cities. (Then again, on purely personal impressions, I would rank those on the list not much differently, except putting Vienna and Stockholm much higher; and I find it ridiculous that they left out Vancouver and SF, not to mention Salzburg and similar-sized ones.) Also, while I am a city boy (as vno is a city girl), I do prefer the countryside like ceebs (recently moved out into a town from the capital), not the least for silence...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 04:11:50 PM EST
I much prefer to have peace and quiet on tap, and to be able to go out and get culture and excitement and crowds when I want. Rather  than have to put up with noise all the time and have to make a special effort to get the peace and quiet I crave.

Although I know that within a couple of days of being in a town or city, my mind does actually filter out the background noise, so it wouldn't actually be a problem.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 05:23:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]
i'm with you on the p.and q., but it's the opposite for me when i go to the city.

the first few days my batteries are filled with good country juice, and nothing boters me, it's all good and fascinating...

then after a few days it's like the protective sheath melts away ubder the constant abrasion of noise and pollution, not to mention how affected people tend to be...all image.

it's fun to see what's 'cool' then suddenly you get it that it's life and death to these folks, their identity is validated only in this way, narcissism.

oi loiks it funky...and real.

the other thing about cities is how exhausting it is even to travel to see a good show or whatever, that i'm already flagging before i get there, whereas in the country i have the energy to walk for miles...

highly tweaked nervous system i guess, enervation leads to chronic fatigue, lassitude and eventual exhaustion from depleted ki.

time to get back to the fresh air before depression kicks in...

i'll maybe try city life again once the combustion engine and the smoggy factories ahve given way to something better...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 09:47:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]
some similarities, I do tend to find I rub up against too many people after the first couple of days.  

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 10:24:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The kind of place that you'd want to live in will obviously depend upon a large number of variables, many of which can't be captured in these rankings...

Rankism is a nice word. I like it. Obviously cities as well as citizens shouldn't focus too much on these rankings... but as long as they do, it's good to put in some balance.

The spread probably reflects to some extent that of the bank. They should at least get Boston, SF, D.C., Melbourne, Saint Petersburg, Cairo and Lagos on the list to cover the biggest and the most global cities in some balanced way, though you can't ask for everything.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 13th, 2006 at 07:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Also Vancouver, which regularly topped earlier such rankings I have seen.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 04:20:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought this was too cool and too fun an article to pass up...so I front paged it...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 10:16:31 AM EST
Thanks :-)
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 02:00:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
These are some scenes I've been waking to recently in my house about an hour south of Paris.

From AM Bedroom

From AM office

But lately I've often wanted to be in the city a lot to take photos so I've just rented a tiny bedroom in the 18th arrondissement of Paris on the top floor of this building.

From Paris room
.

Hey, Grandma Moses started late!
by LEP on Thu Dec 14th, 2006 at 05:40:44 PM EST
I am simply astounded that Los Angeles, my home city, rated as high as it did on that list.  My impression, perhaps too strongly influenced by my parents life-and-death struggle to scrape by as renters in the 80's and 90's, is that Los Angeles is horribly, horribly expensive for families anywhere close to the median income.

Some of these may have been hashed over in the other diary mentioned, which I have not read - I've been teaching at a school without good internet for a while, and sorta missed it.  But LA has to be worse that that.

  1. Driving.  You have to drive everywhere in Los Angeles, by design.  Everything is always a long ways away.  Work is always a long ways away - the job market is regional, so unless you want to move every time you change jobs (which happens a lot - gotta love that labor-market flexibility), you're going to have to commute.  Oh, sure, there are buses.  I know them, I've taken them, I've lived them.  You can commute on the bus, more so now in the past becasue of the long-distance rail lines.  It's slow and expensive and unreliable, but I got to school on the bus for many years, and I temped using the bus, and I got by.  But shopping?  That is the real nightmare.  Stores sell everything expecting that you have a car to carry stuff home.  Delivery is either non-existent, or very expensive.  So, you get off the bus, walk the half mile from the street to the door (past all the parked cars), buy your really big and bulky stuff, carry it back across the parking lot, and then hold it on the bus for the 45 minutes or an hour it takes.  Furthermore, good shopping is often quite a pain to get to due to the way the bus routes run.  Suffice it to say, it really, really sucks if you don't have a car in LA.  Given the price of gas nowadays, this absolutely MUST be taken into account for such figures to have any meaning.

  2. Health-Care - I don't think I need to explain much about this one, but any American city's ranking needs to be adjusted for this.

  3. Scarcity of rental units - the LA housing market is oriented towards housing as a speculative investment, and thus there aren't all that many rental properties available if you want something more than a small apartment.  This does not help the aformentioned driving and commuting problems.  Simply looking at average rental rates overlooks this problem entirely.

Every time I think about moving back to LA, I just can't imagine making it work.  Fortunately, I'm rather happy in my small town in a mountain valley outside of Tokyo.  It's far enough away to be countryside, but I can take the train into town on weekends if I want.  
by Zwackus on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 06:15:10 AM EST
These kinds of structural things were mentioned in the report -- as an aside. The cost of driving a car happens to be relatively low in America when compared to Europe, but in Berlin you really don't need one (public transport is the best I've seen anywhere, though I haven't been to Japan).

I'd gather that LA is rather too sprawled out to do shopping by bike? Is it hilly?

Scarcity of rental units is supposed to be calculated into the price. Of course if the rental market is not open this won't be the case. There are very good reasons for not having an open rental market, I might add.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 10:58:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"There are very good reasons for not having an open rental market, I might add."

Would you elaborate on that?  Is it economic, political?  The rental market in big cities here is so limited and expensive that requires local legislation to open it up, so I have a hard time thinking of good reasons.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 02:58:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The reason is mainly social/political. If tbe demand for a certain area increases a lot, property owners will be able to increase rental prices by huge amounts, leading to the displacement of the original community (gentrification). The city government has to strike a balance between giving the owners the possibility for increasing the rent by a reasonable amount, to cover to some extent the increased value of the property (which they might be confronted with in terms of property taxes) and keeping the housing affordable for the community that lives in a certain district.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Dec 16th, 2006 at 06:27:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I always find it kind of amusing to see the different takes on the issue of gentrification.  In the LA papers, it's usually described as a good thing, rehabiliting old and run down neighborhoods and whatnot.  It would not surprise me at all if there were programs in place to promote gentrification.
by Zwackus on Sun Dec 17th, 2006 at 03:21:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
public transport is the best I've seen anywhere

I agree it is rather good, though I think there is a main deficiency: the subway network is underdeveloped (but that's no wonder given the city finances).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Dec 15th, 2006 at 03:47:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a horribly late response, I know, but still . . .

LA is horribly, horribly spread out.  In properly serviced middle-class areas it would be theoretically possible to do basic grocery shopping by bicycle, as there is a good density of supermarkets (there are almost no non-supermarket food stores of note in most of the greater Southern California region).  But the package sizing is such that it's really inconvenient to carry the stuff home, because the assumption has been for the past forty years or so that EVERYONE has a car, and EVERYONE does their shopping by car.  Again, it can be done, and many people do it -- but it's hard, and one is constantly made aware of how much harder everything is without a car.

Of course, you are right that gas prices are cheaper and ownership and regulation costs are lower in the US - but in many places, I wonder how much this is balanced out by the fact by structurally-mandated increases in driving time.  I suppose it's a good question.

In LA, there are patches of rent-controlled units in some places, like Santa Monica, but for the most part the entire region is an open market.  For houses, there are usually no protections for renters at all.  My parents were forced to move on short notice three times, when our landlord decided to sell the property to new owners who intended to live there.  There are also all the subsidies the government offers to homeowners, in the form of tax breaks and whatnot for interest payments.  I don't know enough about the issue to say for sure, but I cannot help but think that structural differences make a simple dollar comparison across countries very, very complicated.

by Zwackus on Sun Dec 17th, 2006 at 03:18:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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