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The point in seeking advice

by Agnes a Paris Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 09:31:18 AM EST

There is an interesting humorous new section in the Financial Times "your workplace woes analysed by our new office agony aunt, Lucy Kellaway"
People send their queries or respond to someone else's problem.
Today a lawyer desperately wishing his job to be "meaningful" confides to Lucy.
I never wanted to be a lawyer but now I'm stuck
There is wisdom beneath the lightness of tone, and I thought it was worth a brief diary on the relevance and importance of sharing as we all experience moments in our work life when we find ourselves stuck and at a loss to carry on.


As Lucy points out, a predicament says at least as much about the person as about the situation in itself.
It is amazing how our perception of the outer world and the way we interact with people and handle situations is influenced by our own state of spirits.

When I get depressed journalism seems pointless, when I perk up the job starts to seem better too.

Sharing our problems is therefore useful in a sense that we get acknowledgement, which matters at least as much as the advice me may be provided at this occasion.
I do not mean that we do not seek advice in the first place, but getting attention is already part of the solution.
It is rather standard that people sample pieces of advice when facing a problem, and then come up with their own solution which is the result of a maturing process not necessarily reflecting the majority opinion of those who came up with tentative solutions. We all have experienced a friend or relative asking for advice and then doing exactly quite the contrary, and us thinking with slight bitterness : what is the point in asking for help then?
The clue is that the cornerstone of human relationships is sharing.

Typically, and once again, roughly put, men tend to focus on exchanging information, whereas women would be rather inclined to focus on sharing emotions related to a situation. Hence the frequent misunderstandings and communication twists.

Sharing enables us to formalise our feelings and perceptions, and thus to put them into perspective, to build up a distance to the problem.
Realising that other people may have experienced the same also matters as it provides relief from a loneliness feeling.

Display:
I thought I would quote the whole "problem" as this testimony may ring a bell to many of us (not too many though, at least I hope).
I did not grow up wanting to be a lawyer, I just ended up there because I had good grades and was attracted to the big salary. I left everything in my early 30s and travelled the world for two years, but then I had to come back to law-related work to pay the mortgage.
Now I'm in my late 30s and desperately want to do something meaningful.
But I have obligations, have acquired a lifestyle. So I lack the courage to change completely, to give up the big salary, even though I know I could be much happier living another life...but how to get there?


When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 09:38:47 AM EST
  1. Change the lifestyle
  2. Save the difference
  3. Retire


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 09:40:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The starting point "change the lifestyle" is the most difficult to achieve :)

What about : 1) retire, 2) change the lifestyle, and 3) save ? :)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 09:43:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can't retire because of the lifestyle and obligations.

Change the lifestyle is the necessary first step. Ditch the car, move to smaller accommodation allowing a commute to work with public transportation, take the kids out of the prep-school into a good state comprehensive...

The wife has to also want to "do something meaningful", of course.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 09:49:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have just finished an interesting novel where the traditional scheme is reversed : a couple is having a divorce, and the wife is the one making money while the husband gave up his job to be a 24/7 father. So he gets alimony to be able to keep up with the living standards he had until they split.

But I concur with you that in most cases (in particular when the husband is a successful lawyer or trader or whatever in the City) has to make a meaningful effort to give up her weekly brand new shoes and handbag acquisitions and pampering budgets.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:05:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Does this mean I'll have to give up my handbag habit if Sam ever wants to get a meaningful job?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:07:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Not only that, but the Mac habit too.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:10:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Aiiiieeeeeee!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:12:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That will hurt : going PC allows a 40% saving on hardware (not to mention software) but that is a change in lifestyle indeed, and a major one ... :)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:44:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Those are fighting words. Compare like-to-like and get back to us.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:48:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, as we were talking respect earlier on ;) I hereby claim to have the utmost respect for MAC users, 2 of my best friends are early day Mac addicts (and Apple addict for one of them) so I know what it's like to love something :)
As for me, I regularly shift from the wonderful Powerbook G4  Safari to the infamous Internet explorer.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:56:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Then you're clearly a fifth columnist spreading the lies of the PC world inside the hallowed halls of Macdom.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:58:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Me, spreading lies about computers ? I am not familiar enough with them to do that!
A lie implies you know the truth ; )

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:04:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Me, spreading lies about computers ? I am not familiar enough with them to do that!
A lie implies you know the truth ; )

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:04:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have a PC at the office, that's why.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 12:05:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, so it's about computers! I thought Colman's mac habit was wearing a raincoat with nothing underneath and hanging out near girls' schools.

(Silly me).

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:50:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It took me a while to figure out is was not about beef patties :-)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You're assuming the wife is a 'desperate housewife'. She's just as likely to have a good job as well.

But the point is, if both of them agree on the desired lifestyle, the first step is that much easier to take.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:18:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose that's one of the basic things a couple should agree on if it is to stand the test of time.  This is not the most tricky matter, from my experinec at least.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:40:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
lol. I remember back about a decade ago while temping, my boss, a civil servant, almost went through a divorce over his wife's desire to be a stay at home mom. She was a banker earning much more than he did and he figured it would make more sense for him to be the person to take care of the kids - plus he rather liked the idea. And in general there's often the problem that there is a greater social stigma attached to a man choosing the stay at home option than when a woman does it.
by MarekNYC on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 02:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you volunteering to be our agony aunt? We could do an "Ask Agnesaparis" series.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 09:43:32 AM EST
Well I was thinking we could have a weekly agony aunt or uncle, for that matter, section, which would be operated as an open thread.
The evening open threads can already provide for that if such a need exists but not everyone reads them as the content is not explicit.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 09:45:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
will you start it - and keep it up?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 09:47:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure I would.
The first can be tonight.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 09:51:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent! I have more problems than you can shake a stick at.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 10:20:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, if there is an emergency, you have my e-mail ;-)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 10:48:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Don't worry Agnes, as urgent as the problems feel they are slow burning enough to wait for your agony column.  ;-)
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:11:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking Bob should run the agony column, if he is available for that. Plus it would be easier from technical standpoint.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The doctor is out... (I might use the column to vent myself on occasion, but somehow not comfortable being in that role here...but thanks for the thought! I second the motion for you to give it go, agnes, I think you'd do great. You are always welcome ask me for a perspective, if someone perplexes you...I always liked a consultant role!!)

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 01:56:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
When I was in private practice as a therapist, I used to have this beginning discussion with anyone who thought they wanted to talk with me, which was basically about identifying the terms on which we met. I offered 3 styles: 1. I shut up and listen  2. I give you advice about what you should do (but this is not my preference, and are you sure you want me giving you advice?) 3. The two of discuss the issues and concerns together as equals, I will tell you what I think, but understand that I may not be correct...how could I know everything that is right for you? I will listen to you carefully and respectfully, I will offer you my honest views and all the resources I can offer...but ultimately it is about you making decisions (with the exception of certain legal mandates, in which I am required to act, like child abuse, etc.).

So which is it? 3. 3, or 3?

My experience since I first started training as a psychoterapist in 1981 is that, bottom line, people need to feel connection and respect...it all moves out from there. (And the toughest characters are those who can't connect or respect...). Anyway, it sure is true for me: connection and respect is my bottom line need.

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 10:01:39 AM EST
In the wake of the Cartoon Calamity and the on-going discussion about immigrant integration in the Netherlands, I've been pleasantly surprised by the phenomenon of Shouf Shouf.

First, Shouf Shouf Habibi was a successful Dutch movie zooming straight in on the stereo-types surrounding Moroccan immigrants.

From a review:

The Dutch comedy `Shouf shouf habibi!' starts with sardonic commentary in voice over on the little virtues and many vices of a remote mountain village in Morocco: "Who would want to live here? No wonder all Moroccans have left for the Netherlands!".
The narrator, Ap, is in fact a second generation Moroccan immigrant in the Netherlands. In this feature film debut of TV-maker Albert ter Heerdt, Ap initially tries to pose as a cool, leather-clad Dutch-Moroccan but eventually reveals himself to be just a flawed human. Similarly, this comedy starts out as a pure laugh-out-loud fest but ends up being a tragicomedy that grows unexpectedly moving in its closing scenes.

On the wings of that success comes Shouf Shouf the series, and after watching a couple of episodes (public channel hence accessible on the net!), I'm quite amused.

First, we need connection and respect. Then, we can show (mock) disrespect as tribute to mutual respect. Watch the Dutch and the Flemmish excel at it...

And whataboutbob, the next episode should fit especially in your alley: it's about a tournament of soccer between competing nationalities.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 10:18:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Interesting.
I was wondering how to keep my Dutch-as-a-second-language alive when I've finished my Youp. (Hartjeuk & Zieleczeem)
by Number 6 on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 11:53:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 01:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
nomad, tell me how that episode goes...I predict calamity...but who knows?

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 01:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Tune in, next week, same Nomad.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 08:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems you would be better qualified to run the agony uncle section.
However, it is definitely something we could enlarge to a thought fuelling section where one could relate a personal experience and people react to that and share similar stories.
That is what I tried to do with my diary "Smile !" or the virtue circle of positive feed back attitudes

 

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 10:11:36 AM EST
I responsed to your kind offer above...its your baby though, you should give it a go, agnes

Anyway, my latest thing is exploring the whole idea of innate resiliencies...it would be interesting to figure out how to respond from that angle. Tell you what, Agnes, you be the lead on this column, and I'll promise to participate (as much as I can).

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia

by whataboutbob on Wed Mar 15th, 2006 at 02:03:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It seems to me that we could start with a weekly frequency, to be up-scaled to bi-weekly if there is enough demand.
Will post it as an open thread diary.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 16th, 2006 at 03:51:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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