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Bloggers are not reporters, FT says-Let's debate

by Agnes a Paris Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:23:52 AM EST

"The fallacy that bloggers have replaced real news hounds", writes John Gapper in the FT Business Column.
Worried, pal ? True, with on-line newspaper sites offering space for bloggers (like Le Monde) and the quality of some forums ---yes, I am thinking European Tribune here--no wonder traditional reporters believe they have troubled days ahead of them.
Isn't a reasonable degree of competition a guarantee of improved quality ?

Another critical question is whether there is a vacuum in the traditional newspress that bloggers manage to fill successfully. My answer is yes.

The internet has set off an explosion of opinion-writing, and news agregation. But it has not, so far, produced a lot of first-hand reporting by non-professionals.
Let's debunk that assertion !

Attemps to replicate reporting of national and international news wtih citizen journalsim in the US and Europe, such as Wikinews, have not fared particularly well.
Indeed ? They missed the existence of ET...


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No, it's mostly true. There is the odd bit of reporting but most of it is analysis and comment. Which is fine: processing raw facts into knowledge is important. Not that most papers do much reporting these days: recycling newswire reports and press releases is more their style.

It's the opinion/analysis crowd that are screwed because their work is generally not as good as the blogs: there's always some bloody expert on a topic blogging somewhere.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:30:21 AM EST
Well, I'd agree that the grand total of investigative journalism from blogs is still quite small.

But, as an example, DoDo or de Gondi's reports of their countries elections far outstrip anything produced in British newspapers on the topic. A lot of what goes in newspapers is not "primary source journalism" anyway.

The other complicating factor is that the real change blogging has inspired is the renewed growth of independent journalists. People like Greg Palast for example. He's a "proper journalist," he makes his money from it, he produces stuff published in "proper media." But, he's not a staff reporter of a big news organisation. And indeed, the kind of "journalism" that is missing from the blogs is mostly missing from mainstream news organisations too.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:36:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But their reports are second hand as well.

There's a core of actual reporting work that has to be done: that needs money and time. Someone has to pay that bill.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:51:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
True, but my point is that the FT (for example) is increasingly refusing to pay that bill.

"Real journalism" now increasingly comes out of academic sources (university budgets, think tanks and the profits freelancers can make off of books and movies.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 05:44:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's only sometimes the core work has to be paid for.

Consider Soj's Belarus updates. The only thing that makes them different from 'real' journalism is that Soj isn't getting paid, and isn't part of an established news organisation. Otherwise they look very much like a foreign correspondent's report, complete with pictures. With the added benefit that we can ask questions about what's happening.

So I think it's only really extreme locations - Afghanistan, Darfur, North Korea - where there's no online infrastructure and no home-grown talent that are accessible to traditional reporting and not to blogging.

For the rest of the world blogging is often faster off the mark and more informative than the mainstream media - as with Alex's report on the DRM and IT debate, which has only just filtered through to the mainstream a couple of days after we read about it here.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 07:38:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, Soj is writing the Belarus updates from Romania... But all our Spanish coverage is from abroad, too, so...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 07:42:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, when you mention remote locations, Alexandra did an excellent job on Darfur.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 10:26:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What you point out about being institutionalised or not is important : indeed, traditional journalists have editorial guidelines to abide by and if they go too far astray, they will lose their column or the interesting coverage bits.
This is not our case : nothing is really at stake, except recognition by other bloggers.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 10:30:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You call that nothing!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 10:31:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You know me a little bit know, can you believe one minute that is not important to me ?
Most recent evidence : my anxious reaction to Migeru's post.  

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 10:34:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
now, not know. Being mentally challenged confuses my mind.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 10:35:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was worried you'd been enlightened or something.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 10:36:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope. Have not spent enough time on ET yet.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 10:40:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you're looking for enlightenment here you're in trouble. Ensnarkenment maybe.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:34:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I do not mind snarks.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:08:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry to disagree with you but some of the stuff I write is not second hand. Not that it matters, but I'ld like to debunk that familiary objection to "blogger" journalism.

As far as second hand journalism is concerned, much reporting is done through wires or infomercials. Real investigative writing is generally a liability for newspapers.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:35:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not saying it's not: I'm making a general comment.

If blogs were papers they'd have two pages of news and a hundred of opinion and recycled news. Which I suppose is about the ratio of most papers these days.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 03:20:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Let's disagree to agree.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 03:40:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No!
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 03:52:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Newspapers and TV news are passive consumer items. By their nature blogs are interactive. It's a major difference.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 04:17:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There's also a growing fraction of the work of jouralists which is to process the reports and press releases provided by primary sources (experts, specialised agencies, consultants and companies).

We've discussed this before, and the conclusion that when we are analysing things like the European Commission Green Paper on energy, we are doing jourmalism seems inescapable to me.

Increasingly, technology will allow all primary sources (press conferences, reports, etc...) to be available to all online. You see that most of the new "press agencies" are really IT companies that act as aggregators of publicly available, but dispersed, primary news.

We'll see...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 05:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I fully agree.
When I read a Flemish paper, that odd feeling of reading yesterday's news comes up: I already read it online the day before.  
Their analysis are mostly short, incomplete and misleading.
A comma from Jerome or a snark from Colman are sometimes more explaining.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 05:37:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
One person's brave new world of citizen journalism is another's dystopia in which every passer-by and employee is a potential snitch.
When all gatherers of news were professionals, it was at least easier to hide.

Ha-ha-ha.
What is most interesting is that readers are invited to post comments on-line at www.fft.com/gapperforum.
A professional journalist opens his forum to non professional writers provided they understand where they belong : stick to commenting on what real news hounds write.
That stinks of elitism.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:31:29 AM EST
What makes me uncomfortable is that the whole article seems to aim at conveying the perception that celebrity blogs and "serious" forums are of a same kind.
This sheds discredit on the second category of blogs.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:36:46 AM EST
The IndyMedia Centers are not "professional journalism" and their online infrastructure is based on group blogging technology like slashdot, or scoop. So I don't know.

Someone in France made some noises recently about legally regulating bloggers out of news reporting, which is part of the same establishment assault on people's information that this FT piece is.

Then again, Colman points out that real first-hand reporting does require hard cash and infrastructure, but most of what foreign correspondents write is bad translations of agency wires and local news.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 05:45:38 AM EST
I just finished reading a book by Neil Postman called "Amusing Ourselves to Death". It deals with how television completely changed the way people view the world (it was written in 1984). Postman argues that the (new) form of the medium (which was television then) influenced the CONTENT of the information people receive, as well as the way they process this information. Referring to Huxley's "Brave New World", Postman concludes that "what we like (entertainment), will kill us."

Whether our love for entertainment will "kill" us, is not my point though. I don't think such a conclusion can be made about blogs and massmedia, but I believe a similar notion can be applied to how weblogs change the mindset of people.

Do you think a diary on that topic would be interesting? I find Postman's arguments very interesting and insightful, though he seems extreme in his conclusions.


"Our life is shaped by our mind; we become what we think." - BUDDHA

by JulyMorning (july_jdb(at)yahoo(dot)com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 08:43:04 AM EST
1984 again? That numbers keeps popping up everywhere...

But seriously, that's amazingly astute of Postman, or at least, it mirrors my sentiments in this topic.

If you feel like expanding on this subject, I'd encourage you. It sounds like insightful stuff.

by Nomad (Bjinse) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:48:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The latest news about ETA ceasefire are yet another evidence that what we are doing is genuine coverage of what happens "on the field".

The ambition for us at ET could be to harbour a bunch of Bersteins and Woodwards.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 08:43:20 AM EST
What are you talking about? Woodward is a BushCo sycophant.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 08:44:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was thinking early years Woodward, when he had nothing but a typing machine, a notebook and cell phones were science fiction. In the last century.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 08:48:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is the fate of successful bloggers to become institutionalized?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 08:49:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Probably. The question is in which sense?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 08:57:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hopefully not committed to a mental hospital.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 08:59:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Already been there. Just joking.
Do you seriously think me mentally challenged ?
This may not be an excuse, but I have no knowledge at all of Woodward's career after the Watergate affair. Was I really off the mark thinking that the job he did at the time of the affair was a good piece of investigation journalism ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 10:08:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Colman, do you think I should be relieved from the agony section ? Or apply for sessions with Doctor whatboutbob ? <s>

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 10:24:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Better Robert Baer's two labradors, Hersh and Risen.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:35:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
There have been some eye witness accounts of events posted on blogs that, I think, constitute real reporting. In addition there has been some study of documents and obscure news items that has saved a story from being lost, this is also a valuable function. But, so far, much blogging has been commenting on news and events reported elsewhere. This is also useful. If it wasn't then newspapers wouldn't publish letters to the editor.

I know of only one site, so far, which has gone into original reporting as its task. The founder is a journalist, Josh Marshall, who switched to writing online a few years ago. (I have no idea how he makes a living from this). His main site is talkingpointsmemo.com. This month he started a sister site: tpmmuckrakers.com. He solicited funds from readers, used the money to hirer two full-time journalists and have them post their findings online. He also has a third site tpmcafe.com where he has guest bloggers and regular posters (like on ET) and is organized as an online magazine. So far the quality on all three sites has been quite high. Let's hope it is the start of a world-wide trend.

There is a blog by media critic Jeff Jarvis (buzzmachine.com) where he discusses this issue frequently. His main idea is that the media world is changing and the big newspapers don't "get it". Apparently there is a new blog by the Guardian which he thinks is being done right.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 09:08:57 AM EST
The consensus here was that to some extent The Guardian still doesn't "get it", as they don't allow comment threads on their commentary from the print edition.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 09:12:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At those increasingly rare times when I do read the MS online, it's getting more and more frustrating to discover that there's no 'Reply to this' button, and no discussion.

Interestingly the sales of most UK papers are down. The Daily Mail is hanging on in some kind of volatile middle ground with sales that vary by as much as 10,000/month and make it hard to pick out a trend line. But elsewhere the right wing press especially is suffering from falling sales as people switch to other media to get their information.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 09:23:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The reporters are frightened because of bloggers kicking their doors down and demanding real news.  And, with fewer and fewer people reading the newspapers, along with falling ratings for cable news, there is bound to be a backlash from the press.  But, like Bush said, "Mr answer's 'Bring'em on.'"  I'll start watching the news when they stop covering nonsense like the Michael Jackson trial and the fact that Ashlee Simpson wasn't actually singing in her "Saturday Night Live" performance.  (You mean to tell me that talentless pop stars don't always sing when they perform live?  I'm just shocked.)

When the press begins asking the tough questions again, I'll start watching.  They're simply angry about the fact that what the blogs produce is of higher quality than the Hollywood garbage that passes for news in the mainstream media.

Think of it as payback for treating all of us like ignorant sheep.  When Matt Lauer is kicked off "The Today Show" and replaced by Al Franken, you'll know things are moving in the right direction.  When Chris Matthews is kicked off the air for comparing Democrats to Osama bin Laden, and replaced by someone who is not a partisan hack, I'll watch the 7:00PM hour on MSNBC.

If they really want to entertain me, put a real Democrat on the air with O'Reilly and Hannity -- a Democrat plenty capable of tearing their heads off, so that we can avoid the bullying that has become so commonplace on FauxNews.  Although, Paul Krugman managed to handle O'Reilly by simply portraying him as a child, when they debated on Tim Russert's Saturday show.

O'Reilly: "General Clark, why do you hate freedom?  Shut up!  Cut his mic!"

Clark: "Bill, if you cut my mic, I'm going to knock you into next Tuesday."

Now that would be worth watching.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 12:34:57 PM EST
And people/bloggers are able to comment on and participate in the news/debates interactively, which makes it more exciting and more democratic.

Bitsofnews.com Giving you the latest bits.
by Gjermund E Jansen (gjans1@hotmail.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 12:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Exactly.  It's receiving and sending information, whereas traditional media are all about simply sending content to people.  Joe Trippi's book, The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, covers this in a lot of detail.  Trippi's been on the front lines of this for the better part of a decade.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 01:00:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Without any ostentatious desire to promote my absolutely excellent diary on the March 18th anti-CPE demonstration in Toulouse, I can humbly say that the fabulous pictures I took that day, along with the totally smack-on and professional commenting I provide, constitute live reporting on an equal footing with any article that Libération or Le Monde wrote from reporters embedded in the demonstrations.

Here is a link to my totally cool diary: http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2006/3/18/102531/258

Here is a link to another utterly cool diary by DeAnander, providing the same type of live reporting from an SF anti-war & anti-Bush gathering:
http://www2.eurotrib.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2006/3/21/2386/78275

by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:18:16 PM EST
Actually, Alex, the reason I liked your diary was precisely because it was nothing like those stodgy old newspaper reports....
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:30:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me tell you that your on-the-spot pictures in Egypt after the football match gave me the idea to do that diary. I liked the idea of taking pictures of people waving flags from within the crowd (and not from several stories above the crowd like most newspapers do)
by Alex in Toulouse on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 02:38:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's fun, isn't it?  And I think the fact that we have so much fun doing those diaries is what makes them more enjoyable for people to read.  It comes across.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:47:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Truth is a cookie.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Thu Mar 23rd, 2006 at 06:49:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One thing is sure, your writing is great. I hope you will carry on with your first class news coverage as well as your tantalising Bob series.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 03:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
In a reversal the Washington Post has started some "blogs". The first attempt was to put the ombudsman online. After she made a few factual errors and was bombarded by the commentators the project was shut down.

They have a liberal journalist doing a column online which has been criticized by the right. In an attempt(?) to balance things out they have added a right wing Republican operative to do another column. The blogosphere is even more incensed this time. One is a liberal journalist and the other is a Republican operative. This is standard on the TV talk shows as well. They contrast a journalist with a Republican party hack. There is no real place for Democratic party hacks in the mainstream media.

You can go to the Washington Post's web site and see the reaction for yourself. The liberal columnist is Dan Froomkin:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100879.html

The "conservative" columnist is Ben Domenech:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redamerica/2006/03/pachyderms_in_the_mist_red_ame.html

Many liberals would really like to see some true debate between party spokesmen or policy makers, but it never seems to happen.

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 04:56:35 PM EST
I have a fond image of an FT front page. It's a picture of Andreotti's lawyer with an expression of joyful rapture and a big spread banner, Andreotti found innocent. This expression was just before she realized that Andreotti had not been let off because he was innocent but because the statute of limitations had run out. Andreotti, seven times Council President, was condemned for association with the mafia, for having been personally informed by the mafia boss Stefano Bontade that the mafia intended to assassinate the President of Sicily, Piersanti Mattarella. That Andreotti did nothing to save or even warn Mattarella. And after the brutal murder of Mattarella, Andreotti continued to hang out with Stefano Bontade. But, hell, statute of limitations. After 20 years what can you expect.

Despite this clamorous false headline, FT did not give equal space to retract their error. Moreover, in Italy thanks to the total control of all major televised outlets and news wires, Andreotti was paraded around as having been judged innocent on all major talk shows, all major wire services- but not in the very few newspapers that still did their job of effectively reporting the story. The pope even threw him a laurea honoris causa as a PR stunt. Perfect timing.

Now I personally don't give a shit about this periodical outburst by the mainstream press against blog reporting. I discovered SCOOP out of outrage over shoddy coverage and outright spin in the MSM. (It was the case of the Calipari murder in Baghdad.) Before blogs, you were lucky if you could write a letter to the editor. Now SCOOP gives us a powerful tool to actually debunk spin in the making, or point out shoddy prejudices in the foreign press as Jerome has been so admirably doing with his "article deconstruction" series. It allows us to debate and correct our views and the proper representation of events in near real time.

Does anybody really know what's going on in Italy or Transdeneister or Hungary? Can in depth coverage actually be put in the printed press? The printed press is disadvantaged by its format and its primary objective: to sell copy to an audience. Original reporting should be backed up by alibi files. So much the better, but with the likes of Pulitzer Judy one can be legitimately concerned about what kind of sources are behind the tons of crap the MSM shovels out. Is there anything equivalent to a link or a footnote in the papers? Are they always reliable or do we just have to trust on authority? Once an article is in the press, how can it be corrected? With a crayon and rollerblades?

As far as the target audience goes, you end up with Procruste's bed. Try to find an article in Time or Newsweek without a pithy anecdotal lead graph. Ersatz English. I get the impression stories are chosen and written a certain way to keep publicity ratings up. Sure, the press has a lot of bills to handle. But what is often done to cut costs is to reorganize foreign desks or just cut them out. You end up with fly-by-night reporting by someone who may not have a full grasp of the reported environment. And, come on, when it comes to savings, the first thing to cut is precisely investigative reporting.

Welcome to the world of blogs and SCOOP. It's just in its birth throws and it's going to whip ass. So roll over, Gapper, you're the ones that have got to change your act. We are holding you accountable for every damned word you write. And we expect the same treatment from you.

by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 05:43:33 PM EST
Thanks de Gondi. And let me say that I very much value waht you are providing to this site, i.e. BOTH information and analysis.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Jerome. I think this site does a lot to us all. I'm glad to be part of it.
by de Gondi (publiobestia aaaatttthotmaildaughtusual) on Wed Mar 22nd, 2006 at 06:30:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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