Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

why facts and reality are dangerous concepts

by Agnes a Paris Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 03:18:34 PM EST

For millenniums, humankind has demonstrated a persistent need to believe in something.
Where this necessity crystallizes in religion, it is easy to debunk, and the opportunities have not been scarce.
In the 19th century, the buzz created by another wave of industrial and scientific progress created a new belief, positivism, which unlike scientism is a neutral label.


Epistemology is one of the most fascinating sub-divisions of philosophy.
As Kant superbly made out, nature is not something that exists irrespectively of our perception of it; on the contrary, our own internal filters and mental schemes condition the perception we have of reality. That was his Copernican revolution. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis was an early version of this understanding of the impact of cultural artifacts on our perceptions of the world.
My belief is that without that major step forward, the Einstein relativity theory would never have existed. Einstein never claimed that Galileo's relativity theory was false; he just provided a different perspective on the universe and a different framework for our perception of it.

Accordingly, facts and reality are conventional wisdom concepts.

Time for an anecdote before the audience falls asleep. I used to have harsh disagreements with a colleague back when I worked in the Risk Management division of a bank. His job was to have projects endorsed by the credit committee; mine was to make sure that those projects were not potential liabilities for the bank. Therefore, my duty was to question the assumptions underlying the viability of the project, which caused me to ask the ritual question: "how is this risk mitigated?' he sometimes would be crossed and just retort: "no risk there" And me: "how do you substantiate that assertion?" "that's a fact".

I have always been very suspicious of facts. Sometimes, belief in facts leads to prejudices and constrains our ability to question our own beliefs. Reliance on allegedly bullet-proof facts hinders progress. Ironically enough, the scientific community sticking to facts was a major hurdle for Galileo, Copernicus, and Einstein and so many other conventional wisdom debunkers and reality-inquirers people whose hubris was dangerous to the establishment.

True, a predictable world is less unsettling, the future is less of a menace. Besides, financial markets hate uncertainty.
In an ideal world, there would be only one truth, spoken out by facts, and we could all rest in the comfy armchair of mother science, fed with figures, equations, and, as post-modern people, watching the world through the prism of the post powerful conventional wisdom tool, the mass media.
Images cannot lie. There is one single framework to bring reality into our homes, the TV set. Do not be afraid, totalitarianism is looming. However, this time, it is a diluted, soft, post-modern avatar. Totalitarianism of the entertainment age.

Display:
It's a fact that the title is twisted in the "Recent diaries" column.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 03:25:07 PM EST
fact debunked.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 03:29:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My belief is that without that major step forward, the Einstein relativity theory would never have existed. Einstein never claimed that Galileo's relativity theory was false; he just provided a different perspective on the universe and a different framework for our perception of it.
Do you really want to get into a discussion of this?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 03:47:47 PM EST
as you may have guessed, my knowledge of what actually went on in Einstein's mind is edging towards zero. So discussion would not be the proper word. pedagogy would be more appropriate... :)
But yes, I would like to have your view.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 04:15:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I would have to know what you think Einstein claimed, what his new perspective of the universe was, and what the new framework for perception was. Then I could set you straight ;-)

Honestly, we have to establish some common ground before I can write intelligibly about Relativity (and do you mean special, general or cosmological?).

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 04:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
which would be level 1, course 1, chapter 1 ? ;)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 04:37:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Einstein was the guy who said, receiving his Academy award : " and I would like to extend this prize to all those who strode the universe before me and without whom none of this would have been possible..." Am i correct ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 04:42:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that was Newton:
If I have seen farther than others, it was because I stood on the shoulders of giants.
Now, a little trivia: who were the "giants"?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 04:55:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Far more information than anyone could possibly want about the 'Shoulders of Giants' quote here.

The story I heard was that Newton was turning on some meta-snark in Hooke's direction - Hooke not being a giant, exactly.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:37:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Resolved ! Newton was a genius. He was also a nasty prick :)
by Francois in Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 06:13:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
well, he only said it to piss off Liebniz.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:40:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'd say Galileo and/or Kepler, but, knowing you, I'm probably wrong. I'm pretty sure though it wasn't Liebniz :)
by Francois in Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:00:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Let me get a shot.

Einstein's special relativity actually falsified and invalidated Galilean, or rather Newtonian or classical mechanics. But ...

But, classical mechanics is actually a limit case of special relativity when the relative velocities of all mobiles and referentials considered are much smaller than the speed of light. As a consequence, classical mechanics are a very good approximation of special relativity and remain perfectly usable for most cases in everyday life, any errors introduced by this approximation being much smaller than practically observable errors.

The funny thing is that, taken as is, Einstein's special relativity is itself a limit case of Einstein's general relativity (same Einstein) and only applicable as is in the case of a flat space time, when effects of gravity remain negligible and Newtonian gravitation is still usable within acceptable margins of errors.

Yet, there is a significant difference between the gap from classical to special and the gap from special to general. From classical to special, equations actually change completely. Classical is actually false. While, from special to general, the equations remain unchanged but the topology of the space in which they operate change and what's get broken is the other piece of Newtonian theories: gravitation.

Einstein truly broke the Newtonian paradigm with special relativity while general relativity is an extension of special relativity and the final stake in Newton's heart.

So while it is true that what Einstein did to Newton wasn't as rude and degrading as what Aristotle and Ptolemy suffered at Copernic's, Galileo's than Newton's hands, it still clearly fits in the "thorough trashing of the definitive nature" category.

Einstein fully falsified Newton, no shit.
by Francois in Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 04:38:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Waow !!!

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 04:43:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Agnes ?

Are you ok ?

You sound like you've been bitten by a venomous spider ...

... or an equation.
by Francois in Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 04:54:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I just recovered a little piece of an exploded head over here... How are things in Paris?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 04:56:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Couple of meteors going through the clear and windy sky, in the wrong direction though. Normally they go down, not up. Funny ...
by Francois in Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
unfortunately, my employer did not consent to a day off yesterday for me to be able to cover the demonstrations...

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:02:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I disagree that SpecRel was more significant than GenRel. Ditching flat space was a very big thing, GenRel ditched the clockwork universe and instantaneous interactions. SpecRel was already implicit in electromagnetics.

On a more general note, if Newtonian physics was 'falsified' by Einstein, how come it is still used? I think a better view is that Einstein's theories are "more precise" in fitting obervations and "have a broader applicability" than Newton's, a quantitative difference, while the theoretical frameworks differ qualitatively - but the latter aren't "true" and "false", in fact a finally satisfying quantum-gravity theory might again be qualitatively different from both without being much more practical.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:02:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In fact, full-blown General Relativity is only needed on theoretica grounds, and for cosmology (where it's not even known to be correct, really). For celestial mechanics, all you need is what's called the post-newtonian approximation. And Elie Cartan showed that you could write Newton's gravity with the language of curved spacetime [connections] too, so...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:04:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ohhh, unless you want to simulate a nasty collapsar... though, that's too hypothetical as yet.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:10:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, in that case [as in cosmology] we don't know empirically that GR is even correct, do we? We also know that GR predicts its own inconsistency in certain extreme regimes (just like classical thermodynamics has the ultraviolet catastrophe which can be solved by postulating quanta).

On the other hand, there is a lot of experimental data on [purportedly] relativistic astrophysics, including the famous Nobel-Prize-Worthy double pulsar, and gravitational lensing. But that still does not rule out non-standard GR. Here's a nice review (not for the feint-hearted, but it is nicely qualitative and it has charts of the experimental bounds on various non-Einstenian parameters):
Clifford M. Will: The Confrontation between General Relativity and Experiment

The status of experimental tests of general relativity and of theoretical frameworks for analysing them is reviewed. Einstein's equivalence principle (EEP) is well supported by experiments such as the Eotvos experiment, tests of special relativity, and the gravitational redshift experiment. Future tests of EEP and of the inverse square law are searching for new interactions arising from unification or quantum gravity. Tests of general relativity at the post-Newtonian level have reached high precision, including the light deflection, the Shapiro time delay, the perihelion advance of Mercury, and the Nordtvedt effect in lunar motion. Gravitational-wave damping has been detected in an amount that agrees with general relativity to better than half a percent using the Hulse-Taylor binary pulsar, and other binary pulsar systems have yielded other tests, especially of strong-field effects. When direct observation of gravitational radiation from astrophysical sources begins, new tests of general relativity will be possible.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:17:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Would you consider gravitational lensing a post-Newtonian approximation?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:13:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't know the answer off-hand, but I can see no reason why not, and a cursory google search reveals that post-newtonian calculations of lensing can be performed...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:22:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Er... I should read my own cuts-and-pastes more carefully...
Tests of general relativity at the post-Newtonian level have reached high precision, including the light deflection


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:29:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:50:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gee, why do I keep posting my answers on the wrong threads ? Please disregard above.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:52:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Dodo, I'd tend to agree with you that general relativity is much more "substantial" than special relativity.

I was contrasting the two transitions of 1905 and 1915 from an historical/epistemological point of view more than trying to establish a hierarchy of worthiness.

1905 is truly a rupture, special relativity replacing classical mechanics and Maxwell equations suddenly starting to make sense.

In that respect, 1915 is different from 1905. It's more an extension rather than a rupture. Special relativity remain untouched. It's "just" the topology of the space in which it operates that changes (and that's a very BIG change).

Special relativity kills classical mechanics. General relativity kills Newtonian gravitation but doesn't kill special relativity.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:09:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I have to agree, Special Relativity also ditched instantaneous interactions, but it had the gaping hole of ignoring [and being incompatible with] Newtonian gravity.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:12:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Special Relativity also ditched instantaneous interactions,

Maxwell already did so.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:27:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maxwell's electrostatics is no different than Newton's gravity. In fact, you can mathematically separate maxwell's equations into a radiative part, and a electrostatic part with long-range instantaneous interactions.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
At the very least, there was incremental advance, and only GR finally (<-erm, let's ignore QM for a moment) ditched all kinds of instantaneous interaction.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:39:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? I had thought that Coulomb's law predicted long-range instantaneous interactions, but that Maxwell's equations could be formulated in terms of entirely local partial differential equations? (At least, that's how they were printed on my shirt :) Besides, electrostatics describing instantaneous (changes in) long-range interactions seems to be a contradiction in terms.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 11:11:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, Maxwell's theory can be formulated entirely locally, but if you wish you can also formulate it with a local and nonlocal part. I'll dig it up.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 12:50:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If Maxwell's theory can be formulated entirely locally, then it would seem that the non-local part of any alternative formulation cannot cause an effect that looks non-local, regardless of the mathematical form of the equations. That is, the net effect of non-local terms would seemingly have to be zero.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.
by technopolitical on Mon Apr 3rd, 2006 at 02:30:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe this is the residual astronomer in me, but I always viewed SpecRel as kind-of pinnacle of classical physics, a smaller change and extension (Maxwell equations!) to make in complete; and quantum mechanics and GR as truly groundbreaking.

Special relativity kills classical mechanics. General relativity kills Newtonian gravitation but doesn't kill special relativity.

Whaddaya mean? On the face, both relegate the former to approximations, so you must mean some more special quality.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:23:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Whaddaeye mean?

That is: the equations of special relativity remain valid but the spacetime in which they are used changes. GenRel mechanics are SpecRel mechanics but using a different topology.

IMHO, the real revolution is 1905. That's really then that the ground shifts under the feet of most physicists. 1915 is the coup de grace.

Yes, I think you suffer a cultural bias there, ya darn astronomer :)
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:56:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
BTW, I always forget to ask: what is your cultural bias in physics?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:08:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Huh?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:20:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I mean his sub-field of education and/or job.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:26:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Micro-electronics so semiconductor physics.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:34:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And the fact that I'm mostly a user in this narrow domain rather than a developer. But I still have to beat down a foundry engineer every now and then on physical models.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:35:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And I thought you were a nuclear engineer...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:37:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Narhhh, that's just a hobby along with rocketry. I never grew out of my infancy "big badaboom" phase :)
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:43:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
General Reneral relativity does not differ in the topology but in the metric [though it does allow other topologies]. Here I definitely have to side with DoDo.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok. Migeru. I know that the relation between metric and topology is injective and that there are topologies that cannot generated by any sort of metric but pleassssssse, let's not split words there. The physical reality that changes under GR is the topology of spacetime and that when you get to the equations, it shows up as a change of metric.

Happy?

:)
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:42:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, but I don't have time now for a coherent answer.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:46:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Mnnfff. Must be a cultural things, US vs. French. A bit like the disconnect in functional analysis.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 10:03:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I really would rather not have to get into the difference  between topology, differential topology, and differential geometry.

And I don't know what you mean about the cultural divide. Elie Cartan is a [the?] key figure here.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 10:09:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cultural divide in the way things are taught. Teaching of mathematics is (or used to be) very different between France and the US. I always had a hard time reading through US textbooks.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 10:49:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We use a lot of american textbooks in Sweden, and they are generally considered too talkative. When there are swedish textbooks on the same subject they are generally around 1/3 of the size.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 10:53:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
French maths tend to go from the general to the particular. I've often seen the reverse in American textbooks (maybe just a bad sample).
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 11:10:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I tend to agree, that often american textbooks go from particular to general. However, I do not really have a preference in that way as long as there are good problems and exercises. I generally start with going to the problems/exercises (what can I do with this once I understand it) and then work my way backwards to understanding the theory. Therefore I also need textbooks to have good registers.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 01:10:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
On a more general note, if Newtonian physics was 'falsified' by Einstein, how come it is still used? I think a better view is that Einstein's theories are "more precise" in fitting obervations and "have a broader applicability" than Newton's, a quantitative difference, while the theoretical frameworks differ qualitatively - but the latter aren't "true" and "false", in fact a finally satisfying quantum-gravity theory might again be qualitatively different from both without being much more practical.


Classical mechanics remain perfectly valid in real life and much simpler to use, hence its persistence. Yet, there is a notion of "true" and "false" in science. But contrary to the religious notions, scientific truth is always provisional and when a better truth emerges, nobody gets burnt at the stake.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:40:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yet, there is a notion of "true" and "false" in science. But contrary to the religious notions, scientific truth is always provisional and when a better truth emerges, nobody gets burnt at the stake.

In practice, different "scientific truths" can co-exist for longer times, so I'm rather wary of that language even if not used with a positivist naivety.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:48:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
QM has been incompatible with GR since its inception, but it has been compatible with SR since the 1940's. That tells you something about the relative import of GR and SR, actually in support of DoDo's contention that SR is the culmintion of classical mechanics. (but do you then have to add QM to that category?)

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:52:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not a positivist naive and science is not totalizing. That's the point.

QM and GR are both true in their own domain, except when they meet, that is, rarely. The religious minded will see a repudiation of both QM and GR because it is seeking an absolute, invariant truth, while I don't see any broad metaphysical implication to it. It just means that something better is needed just the way SR showed up when Mach and Maxwell started to punch holes in classical physics.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:07:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not a positivist naive

Sorry if my language wasn't clear, that was just what I meant!

QM and GR are both true in their own domain, except when they meet, that is, rarely.

Heh, again my cultural bias :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:10:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oeuf de Corse, Dodo, you are biased !

What's fun for a scientist? Verifying over and over and over that QM and GR work in their applicable domains or poking where it hurts?

Politicos always complain that the media never reports the good news but there's a bit of the same with scientists. Stuff that works is boring. Collapsars! Black holes! Quasars! The beginning and the end of the known Universe! Parallel universes and assorted multiverse! That's trainwrecks on a galactic scale, tabloid stories for scientists. Now, that's fun.


[ PS: I'm always annoyed when the "positivist" word pops up. That horse's been dead for so long. We should all let it rest. Comte is no more relevant to modernity than Kant or Plato. They are all historically important but that's that. They are history.

The relevant thinkers for us are Karl Popper and Thomas Khun and their heirs, with all the contradictions and complementariness between those two views. There enough work here to keep everybody usefully busy and for all pratical matters, anything else is archeology (or undigested PoMo hogwash)]
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:33:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
QM and GR are both true in their own domain, except when they meet, that is, rarely.
Are you aware of that beautiful experiment at the intersection of gravity, quantum mechanics and neutron interferometry?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:27:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Noop, enlighten me.

[I've been completely derelict on science news for the past 5 years. Too much work and politics and crap.]
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:35:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
5 years? The reference is [Colella, Overhauser and Werner (COW 1975)]. I'll have to see if I can dig up something from the web...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:42:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
1975? I was barely born !
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:50:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't think I was when the paper was published, but the experiment was in my Quantum Mechanics textbook... You, on the other hand, must have studied with the venerable book by Cohen Tanoudji, Diu and Laloe.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:55:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, indeed.

Les Cohen-Tannoudji are somewhere in the basement in all their 1,500 or 1,600 pages glory. Ouch ouch ouch...
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
See? When you don't have any domestic luminaries, your professors feel free to experiment with modern textbooks...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:16:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, now I'm more or less fluent in English, if you have any recommandation, you are welcome.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:32:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Opening Pandora box

I do not think GR is true in any sense. SR has thousand of experiments backing it. GR.. sorry. Not enough experiments for me yet.

But may be I am wrong.

Upss...

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 07:05:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Je je je je... I love to say that.

That's all I got from my class of general Realitivity: the impression that it was all a bunch of XXap. well not all. Some effects are there. But ei. I must say that the teacher had a little bias since he was working precisely on "I do not know exactly what kind of multiple inconsistencies regarding time frames on gravity fields" (which was weird because I though effects of gravity on time are well stablished and more or less this implies that some ideas of GR should be saved at least but I have no f- clue)...and he kept on saying that in maybe one or two decades we will really be able to test GR...so  I guess this makes an impact in how a class is teached and how you take the information.

And he loved Einstein.. men...

I must say that the only reason the whole class accepted that maybe GR could be right is because he was completely right on Brownian motion and the photoelectric effect...so who knows.

By the way, I have a question, we all know that the mars correction is basically nonsense. But what about the light displacement. Every other year I hear the history: it was wrongly measured the first time, then another guy says no no it is not true it was correctly measured. It is well stablished that light indeed changes path when gravity is present...but where the original experiments properly measured? I would like to know it once and for all.

A pleasure


I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 07:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe you had a bad teacher?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 05:54:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That the original measurements had too big an error to make sense is the story I heard too, but if others said this is a misinterpretation, I never heard that, would have to look it up.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 05:57:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Okay, I think I have the solution, and it is one I should have remembered:

The error of the measurements was small enough to prove that there was a bending of light. However, Johann Georg von Soldner worked out a hundred years earlier that Newton's theory also means that light is bent by gravity, but the effect is half as big. And the measurement errors until the use of radioastronomy were too big to distinguish the Newton-von-Soldner and Einstein light-bending.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 06:32:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hey, kcurie, go read this review and then come back and tell me there are not enough experiments on GR.

With all my skeptical comments upthread, I have to say it is true GR is the simplest theory that fits experiment (and other theory). Plus, it is epistemologically very honest because it's based only on what you're supposed to be able to observe.

Now, if you want to nitpick on singularities and cosmology, well, that's another story.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 12:57:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You knew that I exactly meant that.

Some effects have strong support, the general picture has not srong support but GR is the simplest theory that fits it and it is indeed very honest.

I particualrly think it will probably be wrong in the general picture.

And yeah, cosmology, well I think you know what I think. I am not very supportive.

I just wanted to open de pandora box.. you know I like it.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 04:02:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, one thing. the class I received is in clear contradiction with this review on the subject of the perihelion.

As far as I know light and time delays are uber-double-mega checked. Perihelion not so much. I am puzzled about that. Can the changes be explained due to the research in the last 8 years? There was some problem then that has beens solved in favour of the correction propsed by GR? I am puzzled. I will move perihelion from not a real test to "maybe a good test".

I will keep on reading about it.

Thanks for the link.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 04:10:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Which problem did your teacher have with Mercury's anomalous perihelion precession?

Not the sixties theory about the oblateness of the Sun, I hope?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 06:22:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It basically said that the correction of GR acounted for 50% of the proper correction. Given that it is a small correction, to obtain a new value which is only half way off mark was not considered to be a remarkable fact... I thought that the numbers he gave us were correct, maybe he was wrong and GR improves the result more.

He also discussed about errors. GR basically got it right because the error increase dramatically in the theory so everything is within the range of error despite having a value which is only 50 % better (the error bar was so big that included the possibility of the former Newton value of course)

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 12:39:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]
This is a pretty obvious case of confusion with the light bending issue (see in my other reply). The perihelion precession of Mercury was a much more spectacular good prediction from the start. The numbers I could find with a quick search (apparently the same 1947 source as that of Wiki):

Theoretical prediction:

  • Earth's precession (shift of the coordinate system!): 5025.6+-0.5 arcseconds/century
  • Gravitational perturbation by Venus: 277.9+-0.7 arcseconds/century
  • Gravitational perturbation by Earth: 90.0+-0.1 arcseconds/century
  • Gravitational perturbation by Mars: 2.5 arcseconds/century
  • Gravitational perturbation by Jupiter: 153.6 arcseconds/century
  • Gravitational perturbation by Saturn: 7.3 arcseconds/century
  • Gravitational perturbation by other planets: 0.2  arcseconds/century
  • Sun's oblateness: <0.03 arcseconds/century
  • GR: 42.98+-0.04 arcseconds/century

The sum is 5600.1+/-0.9 arcseconds/century. Observed is 5599.74+0.41 arcseconds/century. (The more modern numbers I haven't yet found supposedly bring the overall error below 0.1 "/C. The effect of oblateness, which was the only serious rival theory, is now put at 0.02 "/C.)

The (smaller) GR precession of Venus's, Earth's, and asteroid Icarus's  orbit has been measured well beyond error bars, too, not to mention Nobel-earning double pulsars. For orbit calculations of Earth-circling satellites in which great precision is required (space VLBI, GPS, Galileo) the GR correction is a must.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 02:37:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think there is an excellent discussion of the measurement of perihelion precession in "The Phone Book", which was published around 1970. The issue is this: in the case of light deflection you're talking about scattering, which involves the assymptotically flat distant regions where ordinary coordinates can be defined unambiguously. In the case of time delays, well, all you need to do is use atomic clocks and measure frequency changes with an interferometer, which is extermely easy and extremely accurate. But perihelion precession is different because mercury never gets too far away from the Sun, and so you can't pretend (as you do with light deflection) that there are flat coordinates with respect to which to define azimuthal angles unambiguously. This makes interpreting calculations and experimental data rather subtle. I hope this makes sense.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 01:18:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not sure I can follow you. This would be a problem for precise position determination, but the issue here is orbit long axis determination, and its change over a period of a century; and the anomaly we are talking about is two orders of magnitude bigger than the measurement error.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 02:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The point is that you are free to change coordinates at will in General relativity, and without the planet "scaping off to "asymptotically flat" infinity it is harder to make absolute sense of "the change in the azimuthal angle of the perihelion". Not that it can't be done easily, but general covariance makes it a little harder than for light deflection.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 03:20:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]
it is harder to make absolute sense of "the change in the azimuthal angle of the perihelion".

In practice on the other hand, we are speaking of something well under measurement error.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 03:43:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I understand that. But the issue is highlighted in GR books as a potentially confusing one, conceptually. Kcurie's teacher was most likely not a relativistic astrophycist, and possibly even not a relativist at all, such is the state of theoretical general relativity in Spain. [Not that we don't have excellent teachers, but they are not relativists, of which I think we have exactly one of world-class stature]

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Apr 1st, 2006 at 03:46:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
and "warning" rate (at best) my post
over there

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:00:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You know, Agnes, I'm glad you asked. When I first read that comment a few minutes ago I wondered what you (and your friend) were smoking.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
we don't smoke nothing. Maybe that's part of the problem..;-)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:05:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I see I can trust you ..;)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:07:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I threw in a second null to round things out.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:45:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You should check out DeAnander's reply tho, it's well written...
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:46:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that is a surprise...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:52:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]
you know what I meant ?

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 02:34:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Relativity and Quantum Theory were special cases of something that was happening almost everywhere in art and science at the time, which was the death of the privileged and all-knowing observer.

Music stopped being tonal and/or rhythmic, art stopped being even loosely representational, writing - with James Joyce - started becoming more associative than formally descriptive, Freud started telling people they had an unconscious and weren't necessarily aware of their real motivations, politics started becoming more democratic than autocratic. And so on.

It was like a follow-up to the Copernican revolution, with humans realising that not only did the universe not revolve around them, but it was distant, huge, weird, strange, and far more dependent on subjectivity than anyone wanted to admit.

A lot of people still have trouble with this. The more I find out about it the more I'm convinced the world is really made of more or less believable and consistent stories and narratives. Some narratives seem to be persistently good working descriptions of reality. But they're not necessarily the only valid description, and are unlikely to be the most inclusive and comprehensive one possible.

This includes maths and physics, whcih seem to be formalised collective pattern recognition. The patterns seem to be real, but that doesn't mean the pattern descriptions are more than a rough map of a terrain which may be made of something very strange and unfamiliar indeed.

At the human level, people find it hard to live without their narratives. Unfortunately many narratives don't have much connection with reality at all. There are probably good evolutionary reasons why they exist, but at the moment a lot of them are rather obviously maladaptive.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 06:05:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
but it was distant, huge, weird, strange, and far more dependent on subjectivity than anyone wanted to admit

I think you paraphrase the evergreen Douglas Adams here :-)

nice post.  and I think it true that much of human thinking is done in narratives or sequences (past or projected) since our survival depends on remembering or reasoning or intuiting or speculating from cause to effect or inferring backwards down the same chain.

grand narratives shape our perception of our situation, of geopolitics, etc (the narrative of Progress, the narrative of the Fall, the narrative of Just How It Is, and so on) much as grand narratives shape physics and astrophysics (Big Bangs and Steady States, etc).

it may be the only way we can sort the overwhelming input from our sensorium into something small enough to store and process...


The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 07:39:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The more I find out about it the more I'm convinced the world is really made of more or less believable and consistent stories and narratives.

Being a bit more conservative than Einstein, I'd say our minds (and views of the world) are made of these.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:16:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In think connection, I recommend George Lakoff's Where Mathematics Comes From, and I want to read his Philosophy in the Flesh.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:27:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]
...but facts and reality are our only real weapon against the opression. That's why we spend so much time debunking propaganda and deconstructing newspeak.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 05:55:41 PM EST
Unfortunately, while Einstein was able to develop the entire Special theory of relativity from only two simple principles, economists and politicians have a much more messy problem to deal with, where one person's facts frequently seem to be different from another's.
by asdf on Wed Mar 29th, 2006 at 10:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Disagreeing is a key milestone on the path to progress. A world where everyone agrees on everything would be a totalitarian nightmare.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:41:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Do you want us to agree or disagree with you?
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:11:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I no not really care, I am no politician. What I am interested in is what you really think.
this is a free space, with no Party guidelines .

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:32:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Isn't that a Party Guideline in an of itself?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 12:50:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It is indeed.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 02:11:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought the main ET Party guideline was different, but I do not want to start a spat with our leader maximo :) <s>

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 03:42:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You thought, based on what?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 03:56:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Poor Dear Leader, so misunderstood...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 04:18:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So long as I am not misunderestimated.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 04:26:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can't get fooled again.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 04:36:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A Party guideline from the neoliberal-boy? ;-)

Well, Castro didn't start out as a communist either, more like a gun-toting libertarian-rightie, so should Dear Leader start a run to overtake afew's position on the ET Political Compass chart, grow a bart, and (difficult) start smoking cigars, we will learnt to fear and heed him :-)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 04:11:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Science is about finding order in a mess of observations by letting various hypotheses compete. Well, maybe except mathematics. So Agnès's call for a little doubt in everything is not at all anti-reason. An observation may be called a fact, but it is not worth much without an interpretation.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:50:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is mathematics science or a language?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:54:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:03:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And, maybe, Platonic reality?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:03:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, well, you leave me have no choice but to direct you to Max Tegmark's "work".

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:07:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No. Platonic archetypes are only required by those who don't have the courage to stand on their own two (or more) axioms.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 10:33:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Both, definitively, unambiguously, enthusiastically.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:54:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This consensus can not stand (that would be the route to totalitarianism).

I would say mathematics is a language.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is that an inclusive or exclusive 'or'?  :-)

Seriously, mathematics can be a language, a science, an Art, an oddity, an obfuscation, a pox upon the land, and/OR/XOR a myriad of other things, attributes, properties, uses, & etc, usw, yadda-yadda.  To say what it IS (existential + attribute definition) one needs to put the question in a context.


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 11:23:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The context is DoDo's previous comment.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 11:24:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, then 'Resolve to the previous solution.'

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 04:05:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The unemployment rate is the ratio of unemployed persons to the active population, not to the overall population.

That's fact.

:: ::

The youth unemployment rate in France is 24%.

Per the definition, it is a number that can be calculated very precisely. If the numbers used are correct, the resulting number is a fact. So, this is a fact that relies on other facts to become one.

So, whether 24% is correct or not depends on how you have measured the active population and the unemployed number. With agreed methodologies to do that, and full respect of these methodologies in the process of determining these numbers, you get as close as one can get, in the real world, to a macro-economic fact, but it remains subject to the potential erros in methodology, as well as to wilful manipulation in the process.

So that number is at best a good estimate.

Whether that fact is the most relevant for the discussion at hand is a whole other question.

:: ::

To lower the unemployment rate, you need to make firing easier.

That's an opinion, which may or may not be true.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 03:38:17 AM EST
To lower the unemployment rate, you need to make firing easier.

That's an opinion, which may or may not be true.

It's presented as more than just 'an opinion', but rather a consequence that follows from economic theory. Now, what the relevant theory is, and how the argument goes, and whether or not there is evidence that the theory is (in)correct, is never mentioned [just like the possibility of considering those aspects is never mentioned].

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 04:20:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The ability to fire people more easily is not directly related to reductions in unemployment.  The opinion, whether true or untrue (depending on many different factors), fails to provide the entire story.  It's almost always a mistake to deal in absolutes (the situation is rarely "black" and "white"), especially in a subject that studies people, because people (as groups) can only be looked at through general trends.

Main problem: The statement makes an enormous leap without, first, providing the base of the argument.  It may be that insufficient labor demand exists to efficiently maintain (and increase) the current employment, so, if it becomes easier to fire people, they'll fire people until the wage falls to a market value necessary to boost employment.  That's what I think the argument is really trying to get at -- that "labor demand" is artificially pushed up due to difficulties in firing people, and that, were it allowed to adjust properly, the labor market would return to its proper functioning, and employment would eventually begin rising again.

Whether its true is dependent upon the case.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 02:19:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]
With agreed methodologies to do that, and full respect of these methodologies in the process of determining these numbers

You went straight to the problem.
So many people misuse methodologies, twist them, or throw numbers out without the right reference to asses whether the calculation is relevant.
You pointed out yourself in numerous threads how many inaccurate figures on youth unemployment we get from the media and other more reliable sources.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 04:57:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Plus the problem is that opinions are often wrapped up to look like facts by clever and misleading rhetoric. The more self-assured the source is, the more credit is given to the assertion. Basic psychological effect.
Numbers are not the most misleading information source.


When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:13:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What is the economic equivalent of these 36 humorous methods of proof? [Humorous only in a black-humour sort of way: they're all too real]

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:19:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Only black humour is real fun !

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:39:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
ah but can you prove that?

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I note you could have made a deeper point re: Einstein and perceptions; his philosophical inspiration was a view of the world existing only through interactions, without an underlying tapestry. (Then he had to discover that kind of the opposite emerged from his theories, but that is another story.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 06:08:22 AM EST
And can you develop that other story?
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:11:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Gravity is all tapestry, with no interaction?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:13:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In subtitles: spacetime, gravitational energy, gravitational waves, empty-space solutions, the very existence of the radio-loud extragalactic objects based 'inertial' coordinate system.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:36:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
the radio-loud extragalactic objects based 'inertial' coordinate system
Now that I want you to write more about.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:37:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I suppose you know what that is, why it is so precise, and why it should be so ironic for Einstein. So, are you curious about the practical realisation?

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:42:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no, yes, yes.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:44:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, no,

You're kidding me!

The ICRF (International Celestial Reference Frame) is fixed to a few hundred radio-loud quasars and Seyfert galaxies, which are (a) point sources and (b) due to distance have quasi-undetectable self motion (i.e. motion tangential to the direction of sight). These and the use of very-long-base radio interferometry (VLBI) ensure great precision. The ICRF is taken as inertial frame when calculating the Earth's motions (the Earth-fixed coordinate system is the ITRF), it even serves as calibration for GPS (and future Galileo) coordinates.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:04:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
About the practical realisation: using some atomic clocks and a dynamic model of the Earth as first approximation, if you tune in multiple telescopes across the Earth's surface to the same two objects, you can simultaneously measure (a) the relative position of the telescopes, and (b) the relative celestial position (e.g. direction) of the two objects. From this, you can construct two basic grids, the celestial one consisting of some two hundred points, the terrestrial only a few dozen. Further astronomical objects are 'triangulated' from the calibration objects (which is possible not only on radio wavelengths), further points on Earth are triangulated from the site of radio telescopes or measured with systems fixed to radio telescopes (e.g. GPS).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:24:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hmm... What happens to the coordinate system when the Sun passes near the LOS to one of the reference objects?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 08:46:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You do not observe 200 objects at the same time. When you need reference standards for the precise measurement of another object, you'll pick the 2-4 closest - and you'll plan the observation so that you won't have trouble with the Sun (or Moon or Jupiter).

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:08:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
VLBI astronomers actually have similation programs as help to prepare an observation plan, which includes the Earth's rotation and other motions, potential major obscuring/interfering sources, and the exact position and capabilities of able radio telescopes you can pick from to form the interferometry network.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:14:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agnes,

You broach matters which are way too complex for a full discussion in the format of a blog and I don't think anyone here is qualified to address them.

In any case, for epistemology, you need to start where it really stands today. If you don't know them already (hope I'm not being patronizing there), the two heavy weights of modern epistemology are philosopher Karl Popper (science = descriptive, predictive, falsifiable) and his main critic, historian Thomas Khun (notion of paradigm). Both are dead. Neither are the end-all be-all of epistemology, the domain is constantly evolving, thanks God (who doesn't exist). Both are deeply flawed. But, in my opinion, they are still the best of modern epistemology and they are where anyone should start.

For both authors, the reading list should be "everything". But more practically and available in French:
Special disclaimer regarding Karl Popper. His epistemology cannot be completely dissociated from his political philosophy and the latter must be understood in the historical context of the Cold War. Same goes for his critics who where often reacting to his visceral anticommunism rather then his epistemology.


In any case, what grated you with your colleague wasn't "facts" but "gratuitous assertions". And you were exercising (very, borderline annoying) critical thinking.

See, Agnes, you're just yet another one of those closet rationalists :)
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:51:30 AM EST
The real "heavy-weights" in 20th Century epistemology were the logical postivists: Ayer, Carnap, & all that crew; Russell and Whitehead for Principia Mathematica; and Wittgenstein.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 11:12:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sure, but now they are "second-order", stuff you read after, to get perspective, at least on the (not so) narrow domain of the philosophy of sciences.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 01:45:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
So it comes down to: Which comes first, the Wittgenstein or the Popper?  

My answer is: depends on what you are studying.  To an epistemologist science is only one avenue of and for knowledge acquisition and usually locked into the Extensional (roughly: Set) methodologies.  Epistemology encompasses Intensional (roughly: Property) methodologies as well -- or at least it should.

Looked at this way, Popper, Kuhn, the Philosophy of Science, the Philosophy of Mathematics, the Philosophy of Logic, Information Theory, Communication Theory, and etc are sub-field specializations of Epistemology when they deal with 'What is Known' and 'How is it Known.'  Whom one reads first depends on the 'level' - so to speak - of one's focus.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 03:53:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
To which I would answer : which domain matters to you most, practically, as an average citizen or even as average "member of the elite", given limited time and resources ?

My answer would be without hesitation "science" hence "Popper" because of the real life implications of science and claims of science. If the citizenry was well aware of basic notions of philosophy of sciences, this place would be very, very different. I'm not sure you'd get the same return if you dedicate the same level of resources to general epistemology.
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 04:56:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My answer was "Applied" Epistemology due to my former work in Information in Real Time processing and control and my recent research in AI.  But that is me - tho' a modicum of knowledge of Epistemology would improve, shall we say, the bahooey spread hither and thither by my compadres in the CompSci biz.  

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 09:42:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What should I do?

Teach it ... epistemology ...

(virtual cookie and ice cream to the first person to recognise the -- possibly slightly inaccurate -- quotation)

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 11:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The quote is "Teach it phenomenology" and the film is Dark Star.  

The 'it' to be taught is a mis-functioning nuclear weapon used to blow planets up that might fall into their suns and create super-novas.  


She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 11:46:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The problem with this is that so much philosophy - including, and perhaps especially, epistemology - seems to be based on Proof by Assertion, and not on reality tests.

Unless you're a Platonist, understanding how beliefs about the world are created is really pure psychology, and assertions about the process should certainly be testable.

If assertions aren't testable, it's likely they're no real use to anyone anyway.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:10:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Proof by Assertion is a bit rough, don't you think?  I would rather say its Proof by Logic and Critical Thinking as informed by other intellectual disciplines.

 

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 10:04:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
No, it's often Proof by Assertion. Too often the 'logic' really doesn't stand up to scrutiny. And without an empirical base it turns into rather wordy hand-waving.

For example see John Polkinghorne's work. Polkinghorne believes in a Christian god, and works backwards from that to 'prove' that this god exists and isn't incompatible with science.

This is what a lot of people want to hear, so Polkinghorne is respected. But if you read what he's saying the reasoning is often fantastically sloppy and shoddy.

Unfortunately you can do this in philosophy and get away with it, because ultimately it's all a matter of argument and opinion. Any point of view that's interesting and more or less coherent (and makes some kind of emotional appeal) will be equally persuasive as any other. Which is why you need reality testing as a referee.

I agree that Critical Thinking is always a good start. But again without reality testing that can be ritualised and meaningless, as with the various Critical Theory cliches that are endlessly recycled at the lower end of the academic gene pool.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 05:56:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why is Polkinghorne allowed to get away with plagiarizing Descartes, I wonder?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 06:06:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think real progress in Epistemology beyond Wittgestein and Popper/Kuhn can only be made through what is now called "cognitive science".

The work of cognitive linguist George Lakoff holds a lot of promise, but now he's sort of put that on hold to become a propagandist for the US Democratic Party.

Just take a look at his book titles:

  • Metaphors We Live By
  • Women, Fire and Dangerous Things
  • Philosophy in the Flesh
  • Where Mathematics Comes From

Having seen what he does to mathematics in the latter book, I really can't wait to read the earlier ones, which I have read great things about by the way.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 12:49:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is very, very interesting.

I'm going to have to hammer my credit card now, I think.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 06:00:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I regard the central ideas of Kuhn and of Popper as incommensurate. Kuhn was descriptive, focusing on how science is practiced, that is, how its people and their culture interact with theories and evidence. Popper was normative, focusing on the criteria for science vs. non-science, and for good science vs. relatively worthless science.

Popper when further, however, and argued (successfully, I think) that knowledge emerges only through an evolutionary process of variation (hypothesis, confusion) and selection (driven, in good science, by the pressure of conflicting evidence). The alternative proposals regarding the origin of knowledge smack of creationism, or of logical fallacy.

Belief works similarly, but the selection aspect of the evolutionary process typically has more to do with social process than with evidence. It is here that Lakoff and other psychologists make their contributions.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 10:54:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, Agnes, ATinNM has a good point. With Popper and Khun, I'm focusing on the philosophy of sciences properly said rather than the more general philosophy of knowledge.

[ But, anyway, any knowledge that doesn't thrive for the status of science is seriously lacking in ambition :) ]
by Francois in Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 02:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the reference and a name for a concept that makes so much sense to anyone that has cross-cultural experience or more than English as sole lauguage skill.

Lately, in the ether, elsewhere in the media, I've come accross several references to the Theory of Relativity and Einsiein and micro electrical charges. Brain waves and cause and effect.  "We think it therefore we are it" is how I heard it posited.  I don't pretend to understand this but I sense something important.

alohapolitics.com

by Keone Michaels on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 12:06:10 PM EST
Your diary addresses a vast field of knowledge, but a very interesting one.

At first, it made me think of one of my favourite methods for mental hygiene: Korzybski's General Semantics, which, in short and among other concepts, professes that we always must try to be conscious of what postulates or presuppositions underlie our assertions. It pretty much what we are doing when we "deconstruct" economic papers, but it's much harder to apply to one's own thinking...

Then, as François, it made me think of the great contributors to the development of epistemology, starting with Gaston Bachelard's Le Nouvel Esprit Scientifique, La Formation de l'Esprit Scientifique and La Philosophie du Non, which show the traps of common wisdom's epistemological obstacles and how knowledge progresses through epistemological breaks (ruptures épistémologiques).

Then, there is Thomas Kuhn's The Copernican Revolution and The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, for the concept of paradigm, further developed by Edgar Morin in La Méthode

And see also Michel Foucault's Les Mots et les Choses (The Order of Things) and L'Archéologie du Savoir (Archaeology of Knowledge)...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 01:04:19 PM EST
I wondered how long it would be before Semantics reared its head.

Can Semiotics be far behind?

Turn in later, Sports Fans!  As for me ... I gotta go to work.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 04:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Names can be confusing : General Semantics is not Semantics. It's more like applied epistemology...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 04:24:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
General Semantics? Is that like General Relativity?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 04:43:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It's more like Field Marshall Relativity. But a bit lighter on the maths.
by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:53:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Nope, semantics is a much wider science than relativity.:)

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 07:34:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think I'm going to have to write a diary on how Einstein's Relativity is not about relatives but about absolutes.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 12:52:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Just to throw some confusion in here ...

Mahayana Buddhists love to remind scientists that Buddha divided the atom into six parts, further dividable into six parts, themselves dividable into six parts ... ad infinitum ...

... long before any white lab coats could do the same.

Buddha's descriptions for these divisions were: "up, down, and four directions".

So how many sub-atomic particles are there? What groups of sub-atomic particles hold what further smaller particles? Are these groups complete? How many quarks are there? Who likes Buddha? Will Lyon win the Champions League this year?

by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:18:08 PM EST
"Will Lyon win the Champions League this year?"

Like the quarks, Lyon has its ups and downs, but OL will win!

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree, Lyon is known to have a few quirks, but they'll win!
by Alex in Toulouse on Thu Mar 30th, 2006 at 05:27:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Now that you mention quarks, and someone upthread mentioned American versus European math...

Before WWII Europe dominated science and engineering. New concepts and inventions were given bastardized greek and latin names. After WWII we got the 'chip', the 'bit'...

The last (and heaviest) two quarks to be discovered (and believed to exist) go by the names t and b. The Germans advocated calling them truth and beauty [the 4th quark is called charm after all]. However, the American nomenclature top and bottom has stuck, replete with adolescent jokes like "topless particle" and "bare bottom".

</feel-good knee-jerk anti-american snark>

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 12:57:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And there is also Higgs' bosom...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet
by Melanchthon on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 02:15:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought "top" and "bottom" was a gay-pride thing ...
by Number 6 on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 10:19:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Maybe there's a connection through Lawrence Livermore Lab in Berkeley...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Mar 31st, 2006 at 10:26:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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