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International Women's day : why we Western women are so lucky

by Agnes a Paris Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 11:16:52 AM EST

International Women's Day (8 March) is an occasion marked by women's groups around the world. This date is also commemorated at the United Nations and is designated in many countries as a national holiday. When women on all continents, often divided by national boundaries and by ethnic, linguistic, cultural, economic and political differences, come together to celebrate their Day, they can look back to a tradition that represents at least nine decades of struggle for equality, justice, peace and development.

International Women's Day is designed to celebrate "the centuries-old struggle of women to participate in society on an equal footing with men" as the UN puts it.

In ancient Greece, Lysistrata initiated a sexual strike against men in order to end war; during the French Revolution, Parisian women calling for "liberty, equality, fraternity" marched on Versailles to demand women's suffrage.

On 8 March 1857, women working in clothing and textile factories (called 'garment workers') in New York City, in the United States, staged a protest. They were fighting against inhumane working conditions and low wages. The police attacked the protestors and dispersed them. Two years later, again in March, these women formed their first labour union to try and protect themselves and gain some basic rights in the workplace.

On 8 March 1908, 15,000 women marched through New York City demanding shorter work hours, better pay, voting rights and an end to child labour. They adopted the slogan "Bread and Roses", with bread symbolizing economic security and roses a better quality of life. In May, the Socialist Party of America designated the last Sunday in February for the observance of National Women's Day.

What I would like us to do today is give a thought to how lucky we, women living by Western standards, are compared to the overwhelming majority of the world female population. It is not only about economics and social status, more importantly this is about basic human rights such as the right to self determination in the key choices one has to make in life.

Promoted by Colman


To pick up examples that will sound familiar, let's stay in France.

French girls, whose parents immigrated from the Maghreb, who were born in France and consider France as their home country, have friends there and a future, at least so they think, are summoned back to their ancestors' country to marry someone they never met, without having the slightest say about it.

Although this barbaric practise has been made illegal, and thus difficult to account for in statistics, there are still young girls dying from hemorrhage after an excision is performed on them.

Meanwhile, I've too often heard female colleagues complaining about being discriminated against because they were denied, allegedly on account of their three pregnancy leaves, the same pace of moving up the corporate ladder as their male and childless female colleagues. I have always felt an urging wish I could scream : "don't you have any respect?" Respect for all these women who have to fight if they wish to have a professional occupation at all.

Women bemoaning their lack of pocket money to accommodate their weekly shopping sprees as their husband, reluctant to systematically take all the core expenses on his own budget, shyly suggests they could share the mortgage or the children education costs.
Women having filed for divorce complaining about the scarcity of their alimony. "Okay, I did cheat on him, but still..."

In some countries, if a woman is seen alone with another man who is not her husband or brother, her fate is being stoned to death.

So let's forget, just for one day, about the grudges we bear against our men (partners, colleagues, lovers, friends) and let us rejoice for being women living in Western countries, where we can not only succeed but also rule, for the most talented, even if a lot remains to be done.

I also suggest to go and have a look at Amnesty International's link: STOP VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN

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In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 11:12:56 AM EST
It seems I am blessed today.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 11:21:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Woman's rights have gone a long way in many countries and I am grateful for that and it's nice to celebrate.

Unfortunately even in the west there is more to be done and rights obtained are again threatened. South Dakota's new anti-abortion law in the US and the difficulty for women in that state to have access to an abortion if they need one is just one example of threats to a woman's right to self determination in the key choices one has to make in life.

As the Amnesty international site points out "Women from all countries and backgrounds suffer from violence at the hands of their partners, husbands or ex-husbands."

So yes I am grateful for all the advances in women's rights from voting, which I still find it hard to believe my French grandmother was not able to do until 1944 when she was in her mid thirties (it's even harder to believe Switzerland took until 1971 to grant women the vote), to reproductive right, and equality in law, politics and economics but much remains to be done around the world and while we celebrate our mother's, sister's, wives, partners, colleagues etc.. it's important to also remember what remains to be done right here, next door and far away.

I posted some more EU stats in this morning's women's day thread.

by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 12:35:38 PM EST
Yes, Alexandra, the new anti-abortion law is a terrible thing. And other states such as Mississippi are also thinking of implementing it. The Bush administration is doing a great job of bringing people back to the Stone Age and the very next minute they claim that Islamic fundamentalism is bad... I don't care if they can prove that life begins with conception: the woman should still have the choice to "kill" if her judgement tells her so.

I've always wondered how some WOMEN can support pro-life campaigns: i thought for us pro-abortion is the most natural attitude. But i guess one's upbringing plays a more important role. And the worst thing is that if you're taught that this is the right thing, you don't even realize that your rights are being violated.

by Brownie on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 07:30:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]
For a very good book that provides some answers to I've always wondered how some WOMEN can support pro-life campaigns I recommend Contested Lives: The Abortion Debate in an American Community by Faye D. Ginsburg, a professor of anthropology at New York State University. I read it when it came out in 1989 so it's probably a bit dated but I remember it as being very good.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 09:33:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thanks, Alexandra! Is there any way we can recommend this book to the pro-life supporters? I really don't want to sound as radical as some of them them, but what i want to say to them is, feel free to have and live by your pro-life stance, just don't impose it on all by making it a law.

This law really reprsents the US, at least for me, in a negative light. Similarly, a friend of mine recently argued that the average American citizens, contrary to popular belief, are NOT tolerant. They appear to be because due to their usually busy lives, they have no time to care about what people beyond their immediate circles do. Hence, they can't pass judgements and it looks like they are accepting the different lifestyles and perspectives of those around them. In reality, they tend to be deeply prejudiced and conservative. I do agree with that and the attitude that my friend talks about is probably most evident in small-town America.

by Brownie on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 05:28:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
French girls, whose parents immigrated from the Maghreb, who were born in France and consider France as their home country, have friends there and a future, at least so they think, are summoned back to their ancestors' country to marry someone they never met, without having the slightest say about it.
My sister told me the story of a British male student who, in 1999, was whisked off to Pakistan to marry a cousin because an English girl called him at home. Sexual opression goes both ways.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 05:23:29 PM EST
In ancient Greece, Lysistrata initiated a sexual strike against men in order to end war;

What?!? No, no, no, they cannot do that! It's ... it's so unfair!
by Francois in Paris on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 05:28:21 PM EST
I just looked at our ET-Frappr! community :

I saw this :            

Where are the girls ????

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 05:40:35 PM EST
Pathetic, isn't it?

Even more pathetic are the respondants to Sven's poll who answered that they come to ET to pick up chicks.  Good luck with that kinda competition! ;)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 05:53:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Where are the girls? Racking their brains over the latest Cosmopolitan issue or on yet ANOTHER shopping spree with some girlfriends.:)))

Maybe women don't love and understand politics as much as men do. Beats me. That's what i was saying to Agnes a while ago.

by Brownie on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 08:03:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Woman does understand politics, but they have no time to get involved : they have to care about things.
Extreme example : the Palestinian woman :
Thousands of Palestinian men languish in Israeli jails or have been forced to leave the country, Khreish said, and their wives have no choice but to bear a greater burden.
"Women have psychological and economic responsibilities to maintain the well-being of the family," she explained, noting that 13 percent are forced to become the family's breadwinner.


The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 08:17:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]
One question is whether women at ET are less likely to identify themselves on this map. I know Agnes, Londonbear and I are not on the map for example.
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 09:54:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I have 4 sisters, all engaged in some voluntary things, like Woman in Black, Oxfam, and other.
I also have tree brothers.  We all are 40 and above.
When we gather with our woman/man or girl/boy/friend and the kids and partners and the grandchildren ....well, the last time (Christmas) the oldest was my mother(83) the youngest 6 days old we were 37. We gather 3 times a year and everybody loves it to be there if its possible.
One of the reasons everybody loves it is because we always have huge discussions.  The young generation is as fierce in their opinions as my generation , so the discussions are always very animated.

One of my conclusions after all those years is that our woman tend more to take care of things while man are quickly deduced in theoretical discussions (what if...)   In a thread here on ET someone asked if Osama Bin Laden plays chess........well typical for a man.
In international politics, it are man who lead the hole thing, rough power , intimidation, tactics  and so on....Then my sister says ..."look at them: I bet they can not even make coffee at home....."

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)

by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 06:48:04 PM EST
Aha, so that's the key, the "what if" game! I've read that the more a person plays this game, the more flexible their imagination becomes.

But i do understand the reaction "powerful as they are, male politicians probably can't even make coffee at home." One explanation could be that to women, taking care of the household is a big deal because they put in at least some effort and time (nowadays of course less). The problem of course is that since most of the results of the household tasks are invisible, people start taking them for granted and this is when women start ascribing even more importance to them. It's just natural that the house is clean etc.

In Bulgaria, for example, women are said to be tough because apart from putting in about the same number of hours at work, they take care of the larger share of the household. There's a Bulgarian joke about this. On a typical evening in Bulgaria, a husband is lying on the sofa, watching TV. Then he yells out to his wife who's making dinner, "Bring me the drink, will you!" Then he murmurs to himself, "Forgot to say the magic word: 'right now.'"

by Brownie on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 08:22:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That joke is as Belgian as it is Bulgarian. Woman are indeed tougher than man. If woman were as involved in politics(all levels) as man are, we would have policies to handle the real world instead of an imaginary one, no?

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 08:36:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
:)))))

But i really don't know if women are greater realists. It's probably, i think, a matter of personality. Still, the "what if" game is useful: makes you realize that there's more than you see and understand.

by Brownie on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 08:52:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You speak wisdom, Elco B.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 04:37:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Courtesy of my sisters, they hammered that in my head.

The struggle of man against tyranny is the struggle of memory against forgetting.(Kundera)
by Elco B (elcob at scarlet dot be) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 05:54:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Agnes, your post reminded me of "The Scarlet Letter." Amazing, Hester has to wear her letter on her bosom, so everybody can see she is sinful, while the man she has sinned with wears his scarlet letter beneath his jacket. Despite all the good things you say us European women have, sometimes, even here, we still wear our letters in front of everybody, while it's much easier for men to get excused or to cover things up. But then, there are areas where THEY bear the brunt of things.

Recently i had a discussion with a journalism professor of mine in which we kind of reached the conclusion that most of the great credible columnists are men and that on the few occasions when women write columns, they tend to talk about lighter stuff: family, love, beauty, health. But when it comes to analyzing politics and coming up with sophisticated political arguments and prognoses, it's men.

I only read the columns and editorials in the Guardian, the NY Times, and the BBC and from what i've seen there, even if women write about politics, their pieces are not as substantial and well-rounded as those of their male counterparts. The same, i know for sure, goes for the Bulgarian press: just a couple of females on the horizon. Maybe because pen is short for penis. Don't remember who said that.

Similarly, a while ago i was having a discussion with a friend about the possibility of Hillary Clinton being elected president in 2008. "No way! You think all those conservative Americans will elect a woman? I don't think so and it's better not to experiment," he said. "But why not? Policies aside, look at Condi. She seems to be so firm and she definitely understands what politics is about," i replied.

But then, Condi is not a president, although i recently read she's being encouraged to run. Now let's see how Merkel will do. For now she seems to be on top. And of course we have the great example of Thatcher. "We want our rebate!" :)))

by Brownie on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 07:58:25 PM EST
I'm sorry but are your serious?!!!!

Women are equally as concerned about and capable of the writing about politics as men (have you read the women at ET, Booman, Kos?), but newspapers traditionally hire women to write fluff because of the perception they can't write about serious stuff!

Wow, you could just not be more wrong about that.

(p.s. my mother was a newspaper columnist who wrote counter pieces to Phyllis Schaffly and did investigative reporting for television news and struggled the whole time because she'd work really hard at things just to have editors whittle the stories down to fluff or ask for more "human interest" stuff.)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Wed Mar 8th, 2006 at 11:21:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]
That was the subject underlying a diary I wrote some time ago. Women go home ! Gender quotas required ? Let's debate
It is not that women are less capable and willing when it comes to politics, it is about self-restraint and the gender ceiling resulting from centuries of male domination over business and politics.

The women who were at leading political positions were assertive enough to prove they had the guts to push for reform and take bold measures.
But indeed, when it comes to elections, let's not forget that the electoral base is also made up of average Joes, many of whom still are convinced that a woman belongs in her kitchen or in their bed.

Capabilities are not the issue, mentalities are.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 04:35:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, poemless, i didn't mean to say that women are less capable. What i meant is that they tend to be precluded from expressing their capabilities and that's why they are still underrepresented. Look at yesterday's Guardian columns, for example. Just one female and the topic of her piece is women spending money on shoes!

Elco made the nice statement where he said that women are just as smart about politics, they just don't have as much time because they still need to take care of families etc.

by Brownie on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 05:41:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That was the oblique point I was making about the goodie pack from the lunch Sam was at yesterday.  What would the equivalent pack for a group of male accountants celebrating Men's Day have contained? A free copy of GQ maybe? Or a copy of the Economist? Chocolate or a branded USB key?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 05:46:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Chocolate? Beer sounds more natural. Anyway, we definitely need some food in there.:))
by Brownie on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 05:51:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Humph. Might as well make it some whiskey in that case.

Am I the only one that finds the difference in goodies reflect an inability to take the women accountants seriously? I guess I'm suffering oversensitivity by proxy or something.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 05:54:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Sorry, what does the packet for the females contain? THERE we should definitely have chocolate and a Cosmopolitan.

Even serious girls need Cosmopolitan for the practical advice it gives (yes, 10 ways how to lose weight within 10 hours:))). It's not a problem to read it every now and then, together with the serious stuff - of course, as long as it's not your bible.

by Brownie on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:27:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:28:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Ok, i got it. And since everybody kind of agreed that males will get cosmetics in their set too and since the existence of metrosexuals has been discussed, the conclusion that males are also victims of the pharmaceutical companies is certain.:))) Vanity, thy name is Man.
by Brownie on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 09:47:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I used to read some of that female press stuff at the time when I had complex dentistry care sessions. Speaking of Cosmopolitan, what struck me once was an article criticising the "dictatorship of slenderness". The subsequent section was a bath suit special featuring painfully skinny models.
A momentary lapse of editorial coherence, or true belief that we women are dumb ?...

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 07:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Standard-issue consumer society cynism, methinks. Like when an article of a political magazine rails against cigarettes or other stuff, visible on advertisements a few pages behind.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 08:54:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well I guess you can add me to your oversensitivity group but sometimes it's easier to laugh then get mad. What was the reaction of the women accountants recipients of this body care packet?
by Alexandra in WMass (alexandra_wmass[a|t]yahoo[d|o|t]fr) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 09:57:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Didn't hear.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 09:58:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We have a word to name this new breed of men who are concerned about their looks and like to pamper themselves : metrosexuals. Not that well-chosen though as no one understands the underlying concept.
Representatives : David Beckham or the protagonist of American psycho.

For them it would definitely be a free copy of GQ, a sample of a trendy male cosmetics line including out of bed hair spray, a designer bracelet or ring (Dhin Van for eg.) and condoms, of course.
Men will always be be men.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill

by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 05:59:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Apparently metrosexuals have been superseded by a new, more macho category. I don't remember the name, as the newspaper feature where I read about this made absolutely no sense to me and the name was just some marketing idiocy anyway.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:02:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They're called ubersexuals:)))
Examples.

I can resist anything but temptation.- Oscar Wilde
by Little L (ljolito (at) gmail (dot) com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:36:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I thought so, but the Nietzschean quality of the label made it hard for me to trust my memory.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 07:00:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I trust those who came up with this label have a very limited cultural, nor to mention philosophical background. The word übermenschen would never ring a bell to them.

That's the reason why I am so allergic to marketing propaganda : it misuses and twists concepts that belong, for the best or the worst, to humankind cultural heritage.  

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 07:42:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I wouldn't trust that at all: they're quite capable of using those echoes to their own advantage.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 07:44:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
My post was confusing : marketing people do use those echoes to their own advantage, including when it implies mischievous twist of the original signification. Putting things out of context is their speciality.

When through hell, just keep going. W. Churchill
by Agnes a Paris on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 07:50:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm talking about accountants...
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:02:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Wow, the protagonist of the American Psycho! He's not just a metrosexual. He's a necrosexual too. Anyway, a great book, unless, of course, one has a weak stomach. I'm going off-topic now, but:))) A literature professor of mine recommended it to us: "I can teach Vonnegut in this post-modernism course. But i can't teach American Psycho - not sure i can inflict that on you."
by Brownie on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:34:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I found it boring, actually, didn't get past the first third or so...

As for Vonnegut, great stuff!

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 06:36:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Really? Then i guess you didn't get to the interesting part, where he starts killing women in the most horrific ways imaginable. Maybe you started reading it at the wrong moment...
by Brownie on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 09:32:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, I just couldn't stomach over 100 pages of brand-name-dropping and guys one-upping themselves on the paper and typeface used for their business cards. Back then if I wanted gore I could resort to sword-and-sorcery fantasy novels.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 09:34:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, i understand the feeling.:))) I guess i persisted a little bit out of snobbishness. :)) But i guess Ellis swamped the reader with these to convey the disgusting extent to which the protagonist was obsessed with brands and luxury. I still find the message of the book great though.

And yes, Vonnegut rocks. But even when i resort to sticking on my fridge a note with his great sentence "Valencia was as big as a house because she couldn't stop eating" food is still tempting.:)))

by Brownie on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 09:56:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
by high5 (high5104@gmail.com) on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 03:15:14 AM EST
Are they lucky, too?  Not?

From what I've seen and heard in Russia and Ukraine, the women are of quite a different mindset and worldview than their Western counterparts.  And they have no more complaints than I ever heard in the US.  Less, in fact.  (Far less.)

Anybody else notice any such differences?

-----

The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.
W. Churchill

by US expat Ukraine on Thu Mar 9th, 2006 at 03:48:59 PM EST
Replying late to this, but you should write a diary on the topic.  I could not agree more with you, though sometimes its like comparing apples and oranges...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Fri Mar 10th, 2006 at 03:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Dear Agnesa, I completely agree with you that we,"women living in Western countries" have a good reason to celebrate and enjoy International Women's Day. It is true that we can achieve even more - more opportunities for professional realization, more respect for what we have done so far and the way we balance between family and career life, and more trust in our capabilities even in spheres that are not typically ordained for women, like politics. Moreover, men and women should be equally paid for the same job done,they should have equal start in the beginning of their professional life, and they should be granted equal access to every chance of promotion.However, even though most of the Western women have not achieved all of the above mentioned goals, they have to be grateful for their freedom and the way they are treated by their relatives. They are still able to choose for themselves their husbands and friends and are given the chance to seek and work what they want to. In comparison, there are Turkish families who live in Austria and their kids study there. But when it comes to marriage, the father of the girl chooses the husband for his daughter. And the daughter is often a 15 year old child or even younger.This relates to the arranged marriages, which are so common among Muslims. Unfortunately, it turns out that this tradition endures, even when the family lives in a modern Western country as in the case with Austria. Another great problem that women face in the 21st century is the circumcision, to which you have also referred. This painful and inhumane practice is still carried in African, Asian and Middle Eastern countries. There, girls are circumcised without their consent and sometimes they never fully recover. This practice may even have fatal consequences. Thus, women in Western countries should be thankful for the status they have earned and enjoy their freedom of choice, expression and religion.
by hitchhiker on Fri Mar 10th, 2006 at 11:27:24 AM EST


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