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Risk, Perception, and Ethics

by DeAnander Thu May 25th, 2006 at 07:09:35 AM EST

Migeru's reminiscence about public protest related to the Galileo space mission drew me into such a long train of thought that it seemed to warrant a diary.  The question on the table is whether the people who protested the use of plutonium power cells in NASA launched space vehicles were just being silly/stupid/ignorant, or whether they had any valid point to make.

My view in gzipped form:  in any human crowd some reliable percentage will be silly, stupid, and/or ignorant (at least on one topic or another);  but just because an idiot joins an anti-war march doesn't mean that the war is a good idea or that anti-war marches are idiotic :-)  my POV is that the protesters did actually have some valid gripes, and this leads me onto some turf that I know and care about -- risk and ethics.  To gunzip, keep reading :-)

From the diaries ~ whataboutbob


This was back when I still believed in Big Science and the space program excited and stimulated me. But it was still worth it...

Ah, I remember being a space groupie.  My two favourite model kits as a kid were a Soyuz (complete with Yuri) and an Apollo lunar lander...  of course I also had a USS Enterprise and a Klingon battle cruiser with pinlights that ran off an AA cell, but the real spacecraft were more fun to build :-)  I was born in '58, the year of Sputnik;  space exploration and me are siblings of a kind.  Like Migeru I have lost the faith; and alas I would go even further and say I can't even feel that it was worth it.  Sometimes I think where we might be now if all that money, brains and heroic effort had gone into sustainable technology R&D.  Oh, the opportunity cost...  Anyway I do remember the plutonium launch and the fuss about it.  However, I did understand the protesters' point of view.   I'll try to explain why, despite my long personal and professional embedment w/in Big Space Science, I felt they had a point.

Going back to a NYT summary of the controversy for reference:

Safety precautions are clearly needed because plutonium is highly toxic if inhaled or ingested, causing cancer that can be fatal.

According to the Energy Department, which made the power generators, the ways the risk has been reduced start with the plutonium itself, which is pressed into a pellet about the size of a marshmallow. The plutonium is in ceramic form, which makes it insoluble in water and unlikely to break into a fine dust that could be inhaled.

''It's similar to your ceramic kitchen cook wear,'' said James A. Turi, director of the office of special nuclear applications at the Energy Department. '

[...]
Mr. Turi said the Energy Department has done about 100 tests over a decade to check the safety of the plutonium units, subjecting them to a variety of conditions they might encounter in a shuttle accident. In one, a fragment of a shuttle booster rocket was attached to a rocket sled and slammed into a power generator at a velocity of 266 miles per hour, with no release of fuel. The tests, the Energy Department says, show the units are highly resistant to damage.

The nub of the controversy is how resistant. NASA has said the highest probability of launch-area release of plutonium due to a shuttle accident is less than 1 in 2,500. The anti-nuclear groups disagree, saying the odds are as great as 1 in 430.

The two sides also disagree on the medical effects of a plutonium release. The groups estimate that it could cause thousands of fatal cancers. But the space agency says so little plutonium would be released that there would be no additional cancer deaths.

NASA's health-effects estimate is much more optimistic than a Federal interagency panel that evaluated Galileo. It reported that a launching pad accident could release enough plutonium to cause 80 cancer deaths eventually. The panel said that if the probe re-entered the atmosphere as it swung by the Earth, up to 2,000 cancer deaths could be caused by released plutonium.

Steven Aftergood, a senior research analyst with the Washington-based Federation of American Scientists, said the real issue was how much risk was acceptable. ''My own judgment is that the risk is small,'' he said, ''and the scientific payoff is large.''


Boyoboy, this is a trip down Memory Lane. The first thing that jumped out at me at the time was the selfconsciously cosy metaphorical language being employed:  about the size of a marshmallow (what could be more innocuous, soft and squishy, sweet and childishly domestic?), it's similar to your ceramic cookware ... trying to "talk down" to the public by assuring them that the technology was analogous to familiar and harmless domestic items.  [In the light of recent studies on juvenile diabetes in the US, the marshmallow was maybe not such a good choice, but this was some years ago, before the Sugar Meme Wars.]  This kind of soothe-speak always raises hackles...

NASA's stubborn insistence on a "success-oriented engineering" line, i.e. persisting in a highly optimistic worst case scenario despite the findings of the interagency panel, did nothing to boost credibility.  The informed portion of the public is by now very familiar with soothing optimistic claims from experts, and the embarrassing history of error or deliberate falsehood in those claims.  The Unsinkable Titanic, guaranteed to be proof against all collisions at sea.  Thalidomide [cf Dark Remedy for the remarkable story of the coverup and the whistleblower Frances Kelsey of the FDA, who put her career on the line to protect pregnant woman from the drug's teratogenic side effects;  she was later awarded a civilian service medal by Pres. Kennedy, a rather different treatment from what she would receive today I fancy.]...  The Challenger crash with its sordid backstory of launch schedules forced to suit a PR agenda and defective O rings [Feynman tells the story very well in his autobiography]... my cultural hero E Tufte discusses the impact of Powerpoint on NASA institutional culture and its relation to the loss of Columbia...  In fact NASA has dodged quite a few bullets over the years:

The Mercury flights witnessed three emergencies, all related to reentry and splashdown. The hatch on MR-4 was blown prematurely after splashdown and astronaut Gus Grissom had to exit hurriedly and swim clear of his sinking craft. An emergency on MA-6 made it necessary for John Glenn to reenter the atmosphere uncertain if his heat shield was sufficiently secure to remain in place. On MA-7 Scott Carpenter overshot the designated splashdown area and a full hour intervened before ground control could be sure that he had landed and exited his spacecraft safely.

The Gemini and Apollo programs also had their share of difficulties. On Gemini 8, astronauts Armstrong and Scott experienced the first emergency to occur in space. After docking with an Agena rocket, the vehicle began to spin out of control. The crewmembers were able to escape by firing their retrorockets, returning to Earth 2 days ahead of schedule. On Apollo 11, the first moon landing, Commander Neil Armstrong was forced to take over control of the lunar module to avoid descending into a giant crater; a crater near-miss was also experienced by the crew of Apollo 16. On returning to Earth, the crew of Apollo 15 experienced a rough landing when one of their vehicular parachutes failed to deploy during final descent. The most critical U.S. emergency to date occurred on Apollo 13. With the spacecraft almost a quarter of a million miles from Earth, an oxygen tank exploded. The astronauts moved to the lunar lander for emergency return to Earth. Again, possible damage to the heat shield added to the concern during reentry.

There were also some dangerous situations during the Skylab series. Skylab 1 (unmanned) arrived in orbit with its meteorite/ thermal shield torn away, with a solar wing broken off, and with the second solar wing jammed. The Skylab 2 crew had the unenviable job of trying to correct these problems so that the main habitat could be made operational. Astronaut Paul Weitz engaged in hazardous extravehicular activity in an unsuccessful attempt to release the jammed solar panel, after which Commander Charles Conrad attempted for 4 hr to dock with the damaged Skylab. The docking finally succeeded, but the crew never really knew until the end of the mission [219] whether or not they would be able to undock for the return trip home. Working in extreme heat, the crew managed to deploy a parasol to shield the vehicle from the Sun, allowing the Skylab missions to proceed. On Skylab 3 an emergency flight home was contemplated for a time when a leak was detected in the command-module thruster.


Anyway, the moral of the story is that everyone knows NASA makes mistakes.  Sometimes big ones.

But no one got really bent outta shape -- politically -- over NASA's history of near-misses (though there was a moment of national mediated hysteria over Challenger which lasted about 2 metaphorical seconds), because the risk involved was almost exclusively to the astronauts and they, like test pilots, volunteered -- nay, would have fought tooth and nail for the chance to fly a mission if that was what it took (I have personally known some of the candidates).  So it was a classic case of voluntary adventurist high risk:  they knew the job was dangerous when they took it.  They get the glory, and they take the risk.  Innocent bystanders are not involved -- except in a more holistic sense of social opportunity cost, as Gil Scott-Heron bitterly pointed out in "Whitey's On The Moon" -- the showpiece Space Program that was supposed to prove the American willy far bigger and stiffer than the Soviet willy, diverted a lot of funding that could have been used to alleviate hunger and suffering in the US.

   "This decision demands a major national commitment of scientific and technical manpower, material and facilities, and the possibility of their diversion from other important activities where they are already thinly spread. It means a degree of dedication, organization and discipline which have not always characterized our research and development efforts. It means we cannot afford undue work stoppages, inflated costs of material or talent, wasteful interagency rivalries, or a high turnover of key personnel.

    "New objectives and new money cannot solve these problems. They could in fact, aggravate them further--unless every scientist, every engineer, every serviceman, every technician, contractor, and civil servant gives his personal pledge that this nation will move forward, with the full speed of freedom, in the exciting adventure of space." (Excerpt from "Special Message to the Congress on Urgent National Needs")

(wiki)

At any rate the public was not exposed to risk -- not in an obvious way, not in a visible way -- in the course of space missions.  This changed with the awareness of the plutonium power packs.  And to understand the depth of feeling they engendered we have to talk about risk perception and ethics.

In my experience there seem to be four main factors in the perception of risk.  One is the individual's personal "risk thermostat" -- some people are extremely risk averse and throw away a tuna sandwich if it has been sitting out at room temperature for five minutes;  others will eat it day-old and take their chances.  Risk thermostat is a function of idiosyncratic factors like upbringing and probably some genetic markers, but also of age group, gender, culture, social roles, etc.  The next three factors all interact.  They are:  the probability involved (what is the statistical chance that X will happen);  the severity or magnitude of negative event X;  and the degree to which assumption of this risk is "necesssary" and/or "voluntary."  A fifth factor I should at least mention is "exoticism" or unfamiliarity;  we become inured to risk by familiarity with it, which is one of the "moral hazards" of highly hazardous occupations and installations.  I consider it secondary to the main four, though others may disagree.

In other words, we sensibly do not worry about very low magnitude events with moderate to high probability;  I could stub my toe if I do not wear steel toed shoes, but the magnitude of the event is minor so I will continue to wear sandals and not feel like much of a daredevil.  We do not worry too much about high magnitude events with very low probability;  if I were to be struck by a sizable meteorite, I would probably be killed or seriously injured, but the odds on this are so low that I do not skulk from one bit of shelter to another for fear of impact.  But in each case I am making personal decisions about how much risk to assume -- there are protective measures I could take (though their effectiveness may not be what I imagine it to be, which is a whole separate topic!).  The risk from second hand smoke is a textbook case:  the worst-case event is dreadful (lung or other cancer) and quite probably life-shortening, the odds are relatively low, but the risk is imposed not voluntary.  For this reason health-conscious nonsmokers tend to get angrier or more anxious about 2nd hand smoke than they do about other risks -- such as driving a car daily, perhaps -- which offer a higher statistical probability of a worst-case outcome.  Moreover, the 2nd hand smoke exposure is not only involuntary, it is imposed by the wilful action of another, identifiable person or persons who are "exporting costs" onto the nonsmoker as they reap benefits which the nonsmoker not only does not share, but usually doesn't understand or approve of.  [The perception of risk is highly coloured by moral and ethical stances which determine "justifiability."]

We can now apply this model to the plutonium launch and consider the sources of public grievance.  The public was not consulted when the decision was made to launch plutonium, in previous missions or the mission over which the controversy erupted.  Thus the risk was non-democratically imposed.  There were assurances that the risk was very slight statistically... but 1/2500 is not all that reassuring.  When questioned, average Americans think their risk of dying in a car crash this year is about 1/70000, but the real statistic is more like 1/7000.   This from Larry Laudan (The Book of Risks, popularised but interesting actuarial stats), who generalises "Most of us tend to be comfortable with activities that carry annual risks of a more or less unpleasant nature smaller than 1 in 100,000 or 1 in 50,000. The slightly less risk-averse find that their habits and hobbies come with about a 1-in-10,000 chance of serious misfortune." 1/10,000 is four times "safer" than the best risk estimate NASA claimed at the time, and 1/10,000 is the comfort level of the less risk-averse quartile or so.  The annual average risk (US figures) of death by cancer is about 1/500, which is enough to justify enormous NGO and governmental efforts to reduce this risk and high levels of personal fear and anxiety about the disease;  this is slightly safer than the odds claimed by the protesters.

In other words the risk factors involved, even at the optimistic NASA estimate, were too high for the comfort zone of all but the most risk-tolerant demographic.

Moreover, the potential negative event was fairly major (2000 deaths is not so very much smaller than the 911 incident, which people got upset enough about to justify two invasions, invalidating much of the Constitution, and bankrupting the treasury).  And the consequences were not limited to "volunteers" who signed up knowingly for the risk.

So if we step into the memespace of an angry protester threatening to sit on the launch pad, this person might expostulate:  You tell me that the risk of a plutonium release that would actually kill people is very, very small and you know what you are doing.  But my family lives in the potential contamination area if something goes wrong.  We know that things have gone wrong before.  We know that your "fail safe" systems have failed and people have died as a result.  Look, if you come into my home and point a gun at my child and then tell me 'Don't worry, I have personally inspected this gun and I am an experienced marksman and I am sober and have no nervous tremors or motor control issues, and the odds that I will sneeze or have a seizure and accidentally pull this trigger or that the gun will spontaneously fire, are a million to one against,' I am still going to get bloody angry about this because who gave you the right to point this gun at my child in the first place?  I never consented to this! And you are doing this just out of idle scientific curiosity, not to cure cancer or prevent a war or something that would be worth risking lives?  Fuhgeddaboudit!

Severe negative potentiality, insufficiently low risk (even a million to one is not enough to prevent anger if the risk is imposed and the outcome severe), imposed vs voluntary, insufficient justification.  Speaking as a nonsmoker :-) and as one who has seen some of the seamy underside of NASA and other big science institutions, I understand the protesters' point of view.  I think they had a valid ethical complaint.

I think scientists like Aftergood, quoted above, did not help any with remarks like "My own judgment is that the risk is small and the scientific payoff is large."  The inevitable perception was of him (and since he was an Official Spokesman, by implication "Scientists" in general) as an arrogant so&so who thinks he has the right to make life and death risk assessments for other people without consulting them, in the pursuit of his own personal obsession with astronomy and space science (which many people don't think are worth spending tax dollars on at all, let alone lives).  Inevitably I'm reminded of Albright's dismissal of half a million Iraqi child deaths, "We think the price is worth it."  Is it ever ethical for Person A to decide that it is "worth it" for Person B to pay a price for some supposed desideratum?  especially if the desideratum benefits A a whole lot more than B?  Should this not always be B's decision?  Who gave the NASA team (or the science establishment) the right to take this risk with other people's lives, and then to proclaim that it was "worth it"?  Bad PR, and more importantly, bad process.

[An aside:  the economists' fantasy of "externalised costs" works very well to obfuscate the calculus of risk and ethics by pretending that toxicity and other negative byproducts just "go away" instead of, more accurately, "going elsewhere and being inflicted on others."]

A very vexing ethical question emerges.  How, if we aspire to democracy and/or fairness, justice, glasnost, whatever we would like to call an "open society," do we ensure that risks which we assume as a polity are assumed only after full disclosure and full democratic process?  How do we avoid the problem of governmental, military, scientific or technocratic elites or corporate marketeers subjecting the population to undisclosed risks?  Believers in the Growth/Progress meme (not all, but some) sometimes talk about "the price of Progress" and dismiss broken lives, shattered livelihoods, destroyed lifeways, lost cultures and language, extinct species, and all the rest as an acceptable price for some allegedly general benefit.  However it's notable that most of them are not the people paying the price, nor do they reasonably imagine themselves or their kin in that position.  They are as we might say, all in favour of experimental aircraft but not keen on being test pilots :-)  [Eisner, CEO of Disney, purveys corporate junk food to the public in vast quantity at his resorts and playlands and I'm sure insists that this is perfectly good stuff;  but he keeps dedicated organic gardeners and nutritionists on his personal staff and himself eats very little that is not organically produced on his own land... just to be on the safe side.]

A dignitarian [I'm still chewing on that one] or equitable society, I think, needs to adopt a nuanced understanding of risk and

  • (a) tolerate voluntary and self-afflicting risk, i.e. not become a smothering Nanny State always criminalising harmless (to others) behaviour For Our Own Good, yet
  • (b) work strongly to ensure that risk is not "externalised," that risks are well understood, and that the populace has sufficient information and sufficient political power to do its own cost/benefit thinking and to reject risks which do not promise sufficient benefit to be "worth it."
 

In my personal utopia, people can bungee-jump, go swimming alone after a heavy lunch, skateboard and ride (motor)bikes without being fined for not wearing styrofoam bonnets, smoke whatever weed lights their pipe -- small risks should not be unduly magnified, and even taking large risks should be a human right; adventurism and even recklessness should be accepted as a social cost of freedom, so long as no other person is involuntarily placed at risk.    But the reverse  is also true:  whoever profits from risk should share it.

In my personal utopia, the families of the board of directors and senior management of the waste incinerator or power or chem plant would be required by law to live fulltime in the toxicity footprint of their plant.  Meat producers should have to eat their own products, and Auto industry CEOs and elites should have to drive their own cars.  Railway officials should have to ride their own trains to work.  They reap the profits, they should expect to share the risks.  

This would probably lead to a sudden burst of enthusiasm for "green chemistry," not to mention wind and PV projects, among investors and upper management :-)  Exposing others to risk without their knowledge or against their will should be a valid object of litigation and prohibition [i.e. though I fully support everyone's right to smoke or use whatever rec substances make them happy, I also support smoking bans in areas where people congregate out of necessity, like bus stations etc.].  This is not everyone's idea of utopia -- it is too socialist to be libertarian and too libertarian to be socialist -- but it would suit me fine and, I think, offer a lower untimely-mortality rate and more personal happiness than our present system :-)

Sheesh!  so much for getting anything else done this evening.  Migeru has a habit of raising questions/issues that throw my brain into Overdrive (not to mention the recent mug of Lapsang Souchon that just about made my teeth rattle -- surprised BATF hasn't put it on the CS list)...  ah, caffeine and spirited debate, at least it's safer than vodka and handguns :-) thanks to Migeru for rattling my cage on this issue, which I've been meaning to write about but not getting around to.

Poll
Risks and You
. I am interested in my personal risk factors and try to find them out whenever possible 20%
. Never tell me the odds! 0%
. Quantified risk is uncharted territory for me, never thought about it much 0%
. I'm skeptical all round -- how do they come up with these numbers anyway? 20%
. My biggest risk is terminal sleep deprivation from spending too much time on ET 60%

Votes: 5
Results | Other Polls
Display:
One of the points that Feynman makes in Professor Feynman goes to Washington, his account of the Challenger Commission, is that the process of estimating very small risks without measuring them is absurd. NASA would conceptually divide up the mission into discrete units (engine, wings, launch rockets, thermal shielding...) and estimate the risk of each of the components failing fatally, and then multiply them together as it they were independent risks. There was also a tendency that he even tested experimentally for tee management to underestimate risks compared to the engineers, even if the managers are engineers with the same field of expertise! [This was tested with the manager and team in charge of the shuttle engine].

Another problem with the NASA institutional culture [and the whole US big-government culture] is illustrated by NASA director Daniel Goldin's quip "I want missions to be quicker, better and cheaper", but I will settle for two out of the three. He got mostly quicker and cheaper.

Great diary, by the way. The way NASA talks down to people (marshmallows, cookware) is reminiscent of the way the European governments presented the ill-named "Constitution" to the voters (at least in Spain). That kind of paternalism alone explains anti-science attitudes.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 03:44:29 AM EST
I think anti-science attitudes are a compound of "unfair bias" -- genuine kneejerk anti-intellectualism, fundamentalist religious zealotry, and similar "endarkenment" impulses -- and "fair gripe" issues like resistance to scientific paternalism and perception of genuine flaws in the academy, etc.  big subject and for me a somewhat painful one as I have a real love/hate relationship with Big Science [nah, you couldn't have figured that out, right?]...  paternalism alone doesn't explain everything but as I said in the diary, it sure doesn't help.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...
by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 04:07:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Too many scientist believe that "people just can't understand this" and then they don't even try: "the galileo mission is like making a s'more out of plutonium, ceramic and iridium, isn't it nifty?".

I am guilty of the opposite mistake, which is to assume everyone can understand non-standard analysis ir quantum electrodynamics. But at least that used to make me relentless in trying to explain the same thing to my students in yet another way "do you get it? No. Ok, let me see if I can come up with a different explanation."

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 04:12:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think another reason for anti-science is genuine ignorance of how it works. As I've heard scientists complain they are not considered intellectual unless they've read the great works of literature, seen great works of art, know their world history, but how many artistic intellectuals think it's necessary to even be able to quote Newton's laws ?

Public discourse is dominated by those who write well, but cannot understand basic science. Being unable to spell or write expressively is to be considered stupid, to be unable to understand statistics is considered moderately chic and ungeeky.

so it's no wonder they pass on their prejudice to others.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 07:45:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I assume you meant "moderately unchic".
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 07:45:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
to be unable to understand statistics is considered moderately chic and ungeeky.

No, I really did mean that it is chic to be ignorant about science. Not being able to understand statistics makes you one of the kewl kids.

Or rather it does not damage your claim to being intellectual if you can't add up. But if you are generally unable to muster opinions about art or literature, nobody will ever take you seriously intellectually.

Take the UK tv programme "University Challenge". The arts questions are desperately obscure, definitely degree level. However I've been able to answer some of the science questions since I was an infant, not even 10th grade standard.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:15:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I read "able" instead of "unable". Losing mind.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:16:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hear hear!

But I think its deeper and worse than that. 'High literature' and 'artsy people' are ridiculed in many quarters, too, including scientist circles, and I heard human sciences people complain about being required to learn about 'useless' stuff like physics. So I think it is more symmetrical, and I think the problem is not simply ignorance of science, but the very idea of division - that about a century and half ago, the strict division of "natural science" and "social sciences" became norm, and solidified ever since. (One mover was the overshooting backlash to Social Darwinism, if I may have the pleasure of another sidesweep at a regular commenter :-)) When a scientific theory makes the crossover, only in an unrecognisably corrupted form (e.g. Relativity Theory -> "everything is relative" -> cultural relativism, Sociobiology -> "so it's nature not nurture" -> Bell Curve etc.)

When I was at the university, learning physics, we were required to take philosophy classes. These were more tailored for us, e.g. semesters titled "scientific philosophy" or "the philosophy of science fiction". Unlike some others, I loved these. But not unlike my classmates, it struck me that our philosophy teachers don't understand some basic scientific concepts, and are rather fond of anthropomorphisms (with all the circular reasoning involved). Yet again unlike many of my classmates, I am less taking this as occasion to look down on 'em humanites and am more filled with sadness: if only them philosophists and literarists could attempt wider applications of say the ideas behind quantum mechanics. (To give an example of what I'm thinking of, though Migeru thought it was the least convincing part of his book, Roger Penrose thought to connect quantum nonlocality with consciousness.)

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But not unlike my classmates, it struck me that our philosophy teachers don't understand some basic scientific concepts, and are rather fond of anthropomorphisms (with all the circular reasoning involved). Yet again unlike many of my classmates, I am less taking this as occasion to look down on 'em humanites and am more filled with sadness: if only them philosophists and literarists could attempt wider applications of say the ideas behind quantum mechanics.
Sure, they don't understand basic scientific concepts so they should try and be imaginative about quantum mechanics.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:32:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In my experience pretty much anytime a philosopher makes a reference to QM or relativity is a good time to abandon ship. And when the New Agers start talking about it run far away.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:52:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What the <bleep> do you know, Colman?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:54:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Strangely enough, it occurred to me while writing that comment that the phrase "I don't know" is one of the least used tools of wisdom. It's use is generally replaced by unfounded and unconfessed speculation.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:57:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Hope I didn't start a discussion that'll drive ATinNM away...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:11:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the contrary, quantum mechanics is all about applied epistemology.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:12:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially Heisenberg's Indeterminency Principle that establishes a firm foundation for the source of human knowledge.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 11:15:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
A firm foundation? Now that is (to me) a novel interpretation of the principle. Please elaborate.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 11:24:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you will have to wait for the diary All Will Be Explained.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 11:29:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"If ... will have to wait"  ??????

ARRRGGGHHHH!

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 11:30:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
but you can't get rid of me that easily!  (Bawhahahahaha!)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 11:28:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Migeru, you need to improve your literary reading skills :-)

I wrote "...philosophists and literarists could attempt..."

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:53:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I stand by what I said... If only they could attempt wider application of the basic principles of science...

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:54:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
No, that's not what the "could" refers to, and it should be clear from the context what it refers to. I am "filled with sadness" over the fact that they don't understand basic principles of science because if they would, they "could" do this and that.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:08:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Snark, snark...

I agree with DoDo on the lack of good philosophists who understand physics. When studying physics and some philosophy I was saddened that at a big university there was no place for a good philosophical discussion of the consequences of physics, in particular quantum mechanics. Other then with my fellow students that is. Or maybe there was and I did not find it.

Anyway our physics teachers were not skilled enough in philosophy and the philosophists lacked fundamental knowledge of physics.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:56:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And to think of it, Einstein was first inspired by philosophy...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:13:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The best philosophy of physics comes from the few physicists who have the ability and inclination to do good philosophy of their own work.

Not to start a pie fight on philosophy here, but the academic study of philosophy is the study of the history of philosophy. Just like a degree in philosophy doesn't make you a philosopher, a degree in art history doesn't make you an artist. It gives you a whole other level of appreciation and insight, but that is a different story.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:19:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
With risk of debasing the status my education confers upon me, I would say that almost all my physics training was in a sense the modern history of physics. You can splendid grades without becoming a good physicist, in the sense of being able to make new physics.

On the other hand, understanding the physics hitherto formulated is assumed to convey a certain way of thinking that should transform you into a good physicist. The same is true for philosophy. Sure, what you study is the history of philosophy (though not necessarily in a chronological order) but if you understand what has passed before, you are supposed to enter a mindset that should transform you into a good philosopher. And I know of quite a few academic philosophers who are also brilliant philosophers.

In that sense physics, philosophy has much in common.

The relationship between being a artist and art is more like the relationship between physics and engineering. As stated recently on some other thread, knowing physics you know the theory behind a nuclear bomb. That is not even close to being able to build a nuclear bomb.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:05:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You actually learnt the history of physics? Now I'm impressed. The teaching of science is usually pitifully ahistorical.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:07:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, yes I have. But not during my science class, and unrelated to my physics studies.

What I, in my awkward way, was trying to get at is that the canon of physics is not that different from the canon of philosophy, though the latter has more of actual history in it. It is in both cases the accumulated knowledge that is mostly studied, with some references to the creators of said knowledge. There is little training (or at least I have been the beneficiary of little training) in actually developing  skills needed for advancing knowledge. At least at under-graduate level. And while doing your phd you are mostly assumed to have picked up creative thinking somewhere along the way.

Sure there are experiments and papers, but in both cases it is set in a safe setting where the answers are mostly known. And in my experience this was worse in physics then in philosophy.

As an example, in mechanics I had an experiment to measure gravity. Now this could have been formulated as "try to set up an experiment measuring gravity, do not forget to estimate the errors caused by your methods". Sadly it was instead a pre-setup experiment where our role as students was to understand the setup, do the measurements, and write a report. And so it continued, the experiments made us good in looking up what the results should have been, correct our answers (discard obviously outlaying datapoints), and write a neat report. I do not see this as valuable skills in advancing knowledge, though it might be good in advancing a career.

This could be better at other places, and I do hope it is.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:29:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In that you're wrong: the canon of physics is the state of the art. How many original physics works have you read as part of your degree, and how old were they?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:33:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
But that is the point. It does not matter wheter the canon is percieved (or is) the state of the art, it does not help you in developing skills to advance knowledge. It can be printed yesterday or 2000 years ago, it is still old and done. The training is to understand what others have thought in the past.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:38:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You do have a point in that philosophy doesn't have a General Theory. However, one one hand, philosophy does have a sense of "state of the art" inasmuch as successive philosophers in one school (or even later schools) did further develop the same ideas. On the other hand, askd's point stands: a a real physicist is someone who doesn't merely know the "state of the art", but adds to it, developing new science.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I could (should) have made a parallel point about how studying physics doesn't make you a physicst either. We are all in agreement.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:43:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, then we are all in agreement :)

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se
by A swedish kind of death on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:47:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
And there it is.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 11:31:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Is simply the passing on of packets of energy from one atom to the nest at certain frequencies.

What's so difficult about that?

<ducks and runs holding cosmic salami containing the entire spectrum of radiation frequencies. Any place you slice the salami you get a clock ticking at a different speed>

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:00:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:00:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So the atoms are a given?

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:04:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can be compared to the coating of pepper salami. Or, if you will, salaami.

The point is that here now is just a slice.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:00:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Now, where did I put that Scientific American article about the universe as hologram?
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:01:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]


You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:19:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What's difficult about Quantum Mechanics is that it is contextual, non-counterfactual and nonlocal.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:05:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I need a cup of tea and will try to decide if I am here or not. ;-)

Or am I just an emoticon with the emphasis on the 3rd syllable?

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:55:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Come across Stigmergic systems?

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 10:02:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you talking to me?

Je je..

All in all a fascinating topic....but I am not going to get in the overshooting stuff (jej eje)

The reason why people like or do not like (science) is purely a symbolic question.. in the same way that you are right-wing or left-wing according to a symbolic universe that you receive.

Each has its own narrative and its own reasons. We can deconstruct it and think on what things we agree and on what things do nto agree.

I have a personal opinion.. which is actually the opinion of an antrhopologists investigating symbolic religion...Of course, science has the structure of a religion with a big shift (Levi-Strauss call it with a proper scientific term but I do not recall it)... we do not foucus on the "why" question in our explanations because we know that is not what science is about (at least our fundational myth says so while we are int he lab)...it is about "how"...

the question remains.. how to explain the "how" and not lose those asking the "why"??  Fisst we will need to get rid of all the scientsist with ego that believe still in the world-is-a-machine stuff (half of the scientists gone), and then we would need to develop myths to explain our discoveries. Only when we can set a tale with our "how", each person can take the "why' in probably the most wonderful way I know....each one its way.

Explain always how incredible and absolutely magic things are...and you will have them in your pocket...explain how all it is rational and clear and purely "white" scientific ..and you will lose them.

A pleasure

I therefore claim to show, not how men think in myths, but how myths operate in men's minds without their being aware of the fact. Levi-Strauss, Claude

by kcurie on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 01:52:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]
aaah, a pleasure indeed...

this is the best post i have read of yours, kcurie, and the one that enabled me to retrospectively grok so many statements of yours that i hitherto found opaque.

just....beautiful

and what a fantastic discussion!

i am fascinated by science, and was turned so off it at school by the way it was taught.

the periodic table epitomised the rainy, claustrophobic boredom of a winter afternoon, the apparent meaninglessness, the left brain reaching the apotheisis of its serial abuse, the dull parroting, the numbingly unnatural cerebralisation, the growing gulf between freedom to feel and enjoy the delicate nuances of reverie and awe, and the tramelled conceits of 'knowledge'.

the only other science class i remember was when mr. ridett, with the fuzzy hair, dissolved potassium permanganate and the water turned a sumptuous royal purple like the gentian violet nurse put on my ingrowing toenails.

point being; little or none of it was presented well, i.e. couched in a manner suitable for the attention and mental empowerment of a 10 year old.

education has come a long way since then...

educators have more often understood how humour, colours, tactility all help to open up and hold the attention of the curious; how encouraging both hemispheres enables messages to go deeper, for more lateral and philosophical connections to be made.

back in my childhood it was just: pile on the facts and see how high the structure can go without toppling, never mind how narrow the foundation, or that emotions were frowned upon in the upper floors.

and who were the kids that made straight 'a's?

in my schools they were vapid pallid fact regurgitators without a smidgeon of life-force, unusual only in their ability to indefinitely defer gratification, at the great expense of having any fun.

not great role-models, in other words, in spite of their easy 'teachability' and frequent praise from the profs.

battered into near-catatonia, it took 10 years after leaving institutionalised education before my left brain cautiously came out to reclaim its side of the great equation.

my math teacher never changed his shirt, and dandruff fell like fallout from his scalp if you asked him over to help...

'please sir, i'm stuck' was the plaintive cry heard from all quarters of the classroom, over and over, from those with stronger stomachs than me.

my olfactory drew its own boundaries, and i remained 'stuck' for a
l-o-n-g
time, until, after years of believing i was a math retard, i found a new way around my innumeracy, which had become deeply dyslexic by then.

it was a jazz piano teacher, larnin' me to count polyrhythms, the left leg doing a 3, the right a 6, the right hand  etc etc.

then i suddenly got why time and the mathematics of its subdivision could act as a portal to another dimension of experience, through aural concentration and fine muscle motor control.

inner juggling...

this had a joyfully liberating effect on my mood, and left me understanding for the first time how mathematicians felt when they talked about the aesthetics of elegant equations, or the mystic perfection of sacred geometry.

it still might as well be an extraterrestial language, but i dig what a fascination mathematics can exert, and how it is as rare and exotic a talent as a gifted voice, or sculptor.

blessed be self-repairing organisms...i can remember and play with numbers better as i age (and more water runs under the bridge).

indeed it's a great and wonderful mystery that the same person whose brain would literally 'whiteout' 20 years ago at the mere mentioning of math, now races itself to compute multiplication and division sums in my head as they come up in the quotidian way they do.

still, when i'm tired i feel the insta-glaze reaction when opening numerately dense missives from the bank....aaargh...shutdown...retinal nausea...how do people do this!?!?!?

the only great academic teacher i ever lucked out in finding was another hopelessly right-brained, adorably lunatic soul, who came to the apartment to teach english lit.

his first words were:

'there is instruction, and there is education.

you have had one, now let us discover the other together'.

and we did...


'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:08:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Is it ever ethical for Person A to decide that it is "worth it" for Person B to pay a price for some supposed desideratum?

The basic ethical justification for the "tax is theft" crowd.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 03:56:00 AM EST
Especially when the price is incurring a risk that may never be realized, the argument is a bit extreme. That's why there is insurance and liability laws.

But then there is the problem of who do you compensate? If enough Pu is released to increase the number of diagnosed cancers by 1%, who are the victims?

So the fact that is is impossible to prove a causal link between an accident and a specific condition on a specific patient may just embolden corporations of the government to relax safety.

However, at least in the case of NASA, hubris may be a factor but definitely not malice. If they cut corners it's usually at the insistence of Congress or the President (see the Challenger disaster), and they are genuinely interested in making their machines work, and do so safely. Some people will never be convinced that you have done everything reasonable to minimize risks, even if it's true.

But in the case of the Space Program and other such big projects, the risk incurred is often not even for the sake of scientific advance, but for "glory". I need to write a diary on "the glory of mankind", which one of my friends keeps talking about starry-eyed and I  find scarily totalitarian.

De has a way of raising questions/issues that throw my brain into overdrive.

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 04:07:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Especially when the price is incurring a risk that may never be realized, the argument is a bit extreme.

yes, well that's what a "risk" is, right? a negative outcome that may never be realised but has a [one hopes] approximately calculable non-zero probability of being realised.  if it were certain to be realised then it would be a certainty not a risk :-)

That's why there is insurance and liability laws.

to which I was about to splutter what you then immediately said answering your own point:

But then there is the problem of who do you compensate? If enough Pu is released to increase the number of diagnosed cancers by 1%, who are the victims?

and this gets us into the seamy underside of COBA and actuarial risk assessment.

let's say that we know that releasing X kilos of Unobtainium into the watershed of such-and-such a valley is going to result in a 2 percent increase in the number of "spontaneous" abortions or premature deaths from cancer.  if we know that there are N spontaneous abortions or M premature cancer deaths per annum already, we know that it will be 1.02*N or 1.02*M next year if this happens.  and maybe we know that that means 3 unborn kids or, say, 10 people who will die untimely who otherwise might have lived to a ripe old age.

if knowing this we go ahead with the chemical release, contaminate the watershed, and say "the price is worth it," -- having no way to identify or compensate those people, merely knowing that they will, statistically, bear this cost -- then I have to ask myself how we differ culturally, ethically, from any of the ancient empires which used to draw lots for sacrificial victims to keep the gods happy and the crops plentiful.  "You, you, and you, line up to be clubbed and buried under the corners of the new heiau...  You found the lucky bean in your cake, you get to be the Corn King, enjoy it while it lasts... The high priests require six virgin boys and girls to be sacrificed..."  the Price of Progress, or a Gift to Moloch?  I do wonder sometimes.  presumably a cultural consensus deemed that those sacrifices also were "worth it," but did that really assuage the grief or fear or rage that each individual, and those who loved them, felt as they were dragged or led decorously off?

how, in the end, can we compensate the widow, the orphan, the person who has just lost a much-wanted child?  with money -- weregeld?  by telling them about the Glory of Science, or how lucky they should feel to have nifty cell phones or rock-bottom sale priced Wal*Mart lawn furniture?  that it was "worth" their personal tragedy for everyone to have cheap consumer goods or new, improved pesticides?  if they had been given the choice would they have signed that Faustian contract -- "the life of your firstborn in exchange for {the Space Program, the car culture, perfect bugfree strawberries, a cheap TV}"?  at least when Marie Curie followed her scientific obsession with radium, she only poisoned herself...

it's enough to make a person embrace the Precautionary Principle and risk being labelled a Luddite...

ain't progress wonderful?  I dunno.  I really don't.  not any more.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 04:35:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's a lot simpler if you decide the dead people don't matter because you've made a tidy profit.

Snark?

I wish it were.

New Scientist today has a wonderful news feature about a famous study that 'proved' people prefer genetically modified corn. According to the researchers it was a free choice. According to someone who disagreed, and has the photos to prove it, the corn was literally sold labelled with big signs saying 'Wormy corn' over the natural product and 'Good corn' over the genetically altered variety.

When you're dealing with that level of sociopathy, the underlying problem isn't the science of risk - it's how to protect everyone from thugs, liars, criminals and other socially dysfunctional people.

Galileo's plutonium was a side-show, because irrespective of the actual probalities, it's difficult to assess risk from an ethical baseline when that baseline doesn't exist in political discourse - and instead there's an institutionalised culture of expediency and dishonesty.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 07:46:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
New Scientist today has a wonderful news feature about a famous study that 'proved' people prefer genetically modified corn. According to the researchers it was a free choice. According to someone who disagreed, and has the photos to prove it, the corn was literally sold labelled with big signs saying 'Wormy corn' over the natural product and 'Good corn' over the genetically altered variety.

Reels backward, jaw hits floor. Words fail me.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:18:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fraud.
by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:19:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Of the award-winning variety:
A LEADING researcher into scientific ethics is calling for the withdrawal of a paper published in the British Food Journal two years ago purporting to show that consumers preferred genetically modified to non-GM sweetcorn. The study, carried out at a farm store in Canada, claimed that sales of the GM crop were 50 per cent higher. The journal later awarded the study a prize as its "most outstanding paper" of 2004.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:24:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]
As this is a news item and not a feature article, it's avalable for free...
New Scientist: Controversy over claims in favour of GM corn (27 May 2006)
If this is the case, "it is grounds for the journal to retract the article," says Richard Jennings, who studies research conduct at the University of Cambridge. Journal editor Chris Griffith of the University of Wales Institute in Cardiff has refused to withdraw the paper, but says he is willing to publish a letter condemning it followed by a response from the lead author, Doug Powell of Kansas State University.


A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:23:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

here's a bit I was going to post further up in thread, then decided not to post at all, then read your post and decided to post it here:

  But "basic science" has evolved dramatically.  I think that while, yes, far too few people understand " the basics of scientific enquiry", there are more than a few among the otherwise better-than-average-educated, whatever that is.

  In addition, I fault professionals of science education --at practically every level--for having essentially written off the lay public as uninterested in science and hardly educable in it even if they were rather interested.  

 Being a child of '58, DoDo lived in the immediate post-Sputnik craze which required instant re-focusing of people's attention on the importance of "learning scientific stuff."  Not all of these kids grew up to become scientists, but a lot of people spent lots of time concerned with how they could better learn and understand those then-current "basics of science."

  Today, as the recently furious debates about Darwin's and his successors' work on evolutionary biology show, a lot of people have very ill-informed ideas about even the most basic concepts of evolutionary biology--and a few of them even hold advanced degrees in life sciences!  What does this indicate?!?.  When that's the case, it can lead to a lot of serious mischief in public policy.

  Finally, too much "science" has now been thoroughly overtaken and made the creature of purely profit-driven interests.  If that has always been true to an extent, it hasn't always been true to this extent.  More of the public is now less ready to assume that scientists--whose positions may owe much to the corporate interests which fund their work--are  disinterested, fair and honest simply because they are scientists.

 -------------------

 extraneous stuff which can be skipped as I probably wouldn't understand the point, anyway.

  Would anyone like to explain the mathematics of statistical probability by showing "when" an "increased" risk actually increases?

 EX: In year X there were n fatal accidents per passenger mile (ppm) of commercial air travel.  Suppose that in the 12-month period following that, there were 1.6 x n fatal accidents ppm travelled-- and that brings us to the present day, in this example;

Now,
  When was one's risk of involvement in a fatal accident greater than the risk at year X where risk was calculated as a factor of n accidents ppm?

 

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Sat May 27th, 2006 at 03:34:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
yow, that was below the belt!  [catches breath]  I think  the arguments are deceptively similar but not identical,  i.e. I cling to my narrow slice of socialist-libertarian space :-)  

the 'tax is theft' crowd claim that they should not be taxed to pay for services they do not choose to use.  the benefits are there for all -- libraries, free clinics, state schools, fire and police services, ADFC etc -- but out of extreme wealth, good fortune, religious zeal or rugged individualism they choose not to make use of them and prefer to use private or church-based resources, or happen not to need them at present.  I myself make no use of the public library downtown, because as a UC employee I have the run of the intercampus library system (a world-class collection);  but this doesn't make me any less a beneficiary of the public library system and quite justly, some of my taxes go to pay for it.

my own claim is I think fairly distinct:  that people should not be forced to pay the "external costs" of benefits that are not accessible to them -- not that they do not choose to use, but that are not offered to them.  why should rural Nigerians who will never in their lives own cell phones be run off their land by miners who want to extract coltan so that Euros and USians can have cheap cell phones?  if one asked the Nigerian farmer, "Which would you rather have, a nice shiny little cell phone or your family farm?"  she would almost certainly  say "screw your damn phone and give me my land back" [since indigenes have got a lot smarter since the glass-bead days], or the equivalent in the local dialect.  but she is not given that choice, and that's my point about externalised costs of systems where the beneficiaries and the cost-absorbers are separate populations...

that's about as agile a defence as I can mount at this wee hour of the morning -- the caffeine is finally wearing off :-)

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 04:15:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Excellent point. And in the more general case, our current system only functions at all because it makes it possible for too many people to divorce actions from personal consequences.

It's a kind of ethical arbitrage - as long as there's a gap between the real effects of individuals' choices and the effects that they personally have to live with, it's impossible to have a true ethical basis for social policy.

Worse, there's a tendency for corporations and criminals to try to widen that gap as far as it can possibly go.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:31:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Fruit juices imported from Israel appeared recently on Budapest supermarket shelves. To my displeasure, I discovered a female relative buys them. I had a very hard time trying to explain to her that she is participating in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as Israel branches off most of the water in the Occupied Territories for its agriculture - the "I don't care about politics" attitude really became bizzarre here. In the end, being tricky, I had more success when pointing out that these fruit juices are sugared...

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:59:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Or maybe she just intuitively understands that it is virtually impossible for a Western consumer to not 'participate' in various human rights violations. Whether it be sweatshops, supporting human rights violating dictatorships or environmental damage. As that is the case, a boycott only makes sense if it is well organized, with a specific aim that one agrees with - e.g. one might have problems with sweatshops but not support one that aims at shutting down all factories that don't pay at least US minimum wage, and has a reasonable chance of making a difference. If those criteria are not met it's just feel-good posturing.
by MarekNYC on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 12:29:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]
is a whole different game if you consider the House as one of the players, and thus make it a non zero-sum game

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:02:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yow, you just discuss stuff I tried to get at in my previous two ET commentaries, in much more detail...

Some small additions:

NASA's calculations of the likelihood of release seem unrealsic on two counts. On one hand, AFAIK no launch vehicle so far has a failure rate even approaching 0.1% (from above), certainly not the Shuttle system. On the other hand, Galileo had a flyby by Earth, and I'm not sure the calculation included the chance of error during this one - and the high re-entry speed would have made RTG destruction certain (while surviving crash after launch was already doubtful).

On the other hand, NASA did move after the controversy over Galileo and Cassini. Energy conservation and efficiency became primary in design. The next RTG-suppported satellite, the Pluto mission, had a public consultation, and RTGs specially designed for a crash, including separation from the rest of the falling-back mass in air.

Regarding the risk factors, I add two considerations.

On one hand, not all risk is computable, because not all is known or thought of beforehand. In such cases, risk perception could still be quantified (very vaguely) as a multiple of the severity of the accident, and the believed unexpected mishap "track record" companies/industry/authorities involved.

The second point is more convoluted and also about risk perception: knowing we are thinking of the risk-of-what. De might have done some of it above, when comparing a 1/2500 chance of plutonium release to chances of death by car accident - whereas if probability of exposure is random, the comparable number would be (1/2500)(80/6,000,000,000)(RTG-mounted satellite launch/year). On the other hand, if we compare this:

...with this:

...what should be noticed is that in the second example, the explosion that caused the visible devastation is responsible only for a very small part of the victims of that accident. Thus the latter better compares to this:

...which is why I don't think architects' discussion about whether skycarper designs should withstand airplane impacts, or rules for intercepting approaching aircrafts, is needless scaremongering, or that the construction of these concrete hulls:

...from the late sixties against aircraft impacts was needless actionism, or the discussion of most of them not being scaled for large planes (especially pre-9/11 for those on the flight paths to airports, and after 9/11 for all) was unreasonable (indeed rejectiion of backfitting by owners was more grounded in economic 'arguments' than probability disagreements).

Another example of risk-of-what is the argument that new thought-to-be-secure nuclear plants in countries importing electricity from thought-to-be insecure plants woould improve security - which ignores that the old plant abroad will continue to operate.

The risk-of-what point also ties strongly with the angle of the "necessary"/"voluntary" risk theme that there can be disagreements about the value of a project the assessed risk is tied to.

*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.

by DoDo on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 07:51:32 AM EST
If people could evaluate risk properly there would be no casinos in the world.

As Chernobyl showed the consequences of catastrophic failure are never balanced properly against the "benefits". We will see this repeated as the expected new generation of nuclear power plants start appearing.


Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 08:49:15 AM EST
very interesting revista of the "two cultures" theory.  I have noticed that pure mathematicians tend to span the divide, i.e. are often deeply interested in literature, art, and music... visit Cosma Shalizi's site for an example of a very well-read mathematician who's culturally and politically very sophisticated...  anyway I'd like to say more but no time now...

a fundamental shift in my own thinking over the years, partly I suspect as a function of advancing age, partly due to more time spent on small sailing craft :-) and partly just accumulated professional experience, is towards Failure-Oriented Engineering :-)  the laws I operate by, in my own memespace, are those of thermodynamics and Murphy...  i.e.
things will break.
you can make it foolproof but you can't make it damnfoolproof.
anything that can go wrong, will.
the moment to be really worried is when you think you know everything that can go wrong.
 "assume = making an ass out of U and Me"
-- and so on.  we might call it playing Pessimist's Poker instead of Optimist's Roulette.

I now tend to want to engineer solutions as simply as possible -- I no longer love complexity for its own sake or to prove how clever I am :-) -- and for the minimum cost of failure or breakdown, the minimum time-to-repair (or at least jury-rig)... rather than the maximum return.  

an inflexible law is that high return = high risk.  in a predatory system the risk may be sloughed off onto someone other than the slick operator reaping the return -- someone geographically distant, distant in class/caste layers, or distant in generational time --  but it's still the case that return and risk are joined at the hip.  and I think the fossil fuel era and its current twilight illustrate this with Wagnerian grandeur.

but high risk and high return are naturally attractive to younger people and other hardwired optimists.  and just enough high-risk ventures succeed to encourage emulation.  what I see from my cynical middle age is that optimism very often results in loss -- loss of investment, loss of life, loss of reputation, irreparable loss.  Rumsfeld's bloody optimism about his and PNAC's cabinet war on Iraq.  the optimism of "we can cut corners and get away with it."  the optimism of "they'll come up with something."  I suspect that waste, loss, and damage become more and more unbearable to watch, or to experience, as we get older and become more and more conscious of our own limited store of the only real resources:  energy and time.  I and my generational cohort have the misfortune to reach this reflective and often rueful phase of life at a time of staggering losses...

the 2 out of 3 ruleset is also a useful meme -- there is one for computers of any given generation: "Smaller, faster, cheaper, I can give you 2 out of 3."  and the NASA success-oriented engineering version:  "quicker, better, cheaper projects".  or my own version for transport:  "fast, heavy, or fuel-efficient, you can only have 2 out of 3".  the idea that we get something for nothing or can somehow "cheat" is persistent, and imho generally turns out tragic.  eventually the House (entropy, Murphy) wins...  and then we find out how good our engineering really was :-)  it's not how well it performs when it's working.  it's how well it performs when it's not working...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 03:45:52 PM EST
too little risk is as evolutionarily unsuccessful as too much.

'the road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom'

william blake

'but only if you travel far enough along it to discover moderation...'

me!

i'm fascinated by the inner calculator that makes split-second, lifesaving decisions...

improvising, one really doesn't know what's around the bend....and then all of a sudden, sometimes you hear the next notes to play, and just how to play them, and you just know, in your gut, that they'll fit, and you don't know why or whence they came, but there they are, and what a thrill it is when that happens!

on the darkside, your car spins out of control, clasping the wheel, horrified you see a child in one of the paths your car will take, and an old person in the other...you have a tiny fraction of a second for your cognition to commit...a murder.

what and where is the nexus that makes this stark calculation?

if we recognised the old woman to be our grandmother, and the child were unknown?

it gets too morbid to follow this search after a very short while, but i guess what really piques my curiosity is the correlation with improvising, the sense of trusting in one's unconscious to make a decision, when the conscious either has no time or philosophy to cope, and ....destiny takes over....

the word concatenation keeps coming to mind....of causes perhaps?

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Thu May 25th, 2006 at 09:36:18 PM EST


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