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Siberian Khatru: On Being Banned by Daily Kos

by ghandi Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:29:57 PM EST

Reproduced in full by Floyd's webmaster and publisher, Richard Kastelein - who posts as Ghandi at myleftwing, Booman and here. And no, we don't like being Swiftboated - so I am posting this as we are not allowed to participate at DK.

Original blog post from Empire Burlesque - www.chris-floyd.com

Last week, I was banned from contributing to Daily Kos, apparently for criticizing the Democratic cave-in on Peeper Hayden's CIA nomination a bit too forcefully. At least I think that was the reason; maybe they just didn't like the cut of my jib, I don't know. This banishment to Kossack Siberia is a matter of no great importance, of course, neither to the wider world nor to me, but as the shunning was accompanied by several ugly and false personal accusations against me (and our webmaster here, Richard Kastelein, who was also banned), I thought I would take this opportunity to respond. I wouldn't want to let swift-boatian slanders enter the public record unchallenged. (Although I suppose I could emulate the exquisite timing of John Kerry, and make a bold stand in my own defense – two years from now.)

Anyway, for anyone interested in this admittedly esoteric subject, the response can be found after the jump.


After the banning, I asked DK if I could respond to the lies and insults of some of the site's commenters. This request wasn't granted, but below is the reply I would have posted.

Correcting Some Misapprehensions
As a very occasional diarist on Daily Kos, I seem to have stepped into a controversy that has left me puzzled. I honestly could not figure out why such an uproar had arisen over a short diary that I posted following the overwhelming Senate vote to confirm Gen. Michael Hayden, the operator of the Bush Administration's covert campaign against the privacy of American citizens, as CIA director. Having thought a bit about the situation, I decided that it sprang largely misapprehensions by some Kos readers -- and on my part as well. This is an attempt to correct some of those misapprehensions.

First, I'd like to address the accusation that I'm some kind of "troll," that I "love being derogatory to Democrats," etc. This charge is incomprehensible to me. I don't feel I have to prove my bona fides to anybody in this regard, but perhaps in these overheated days, I do. I published my first piece attacking right-wing Republicans in 1978 -- before many of commenters here were even born, I'm sure. I first attacked, in print, the rise of the fanatical, politicized "Christian Right" and its growing symbiosis with the Republican Party in 1982. For almost 30 years, I have been denouncing, in print, in public, this nightmare hard-right movement that has slowly consumed our Republic and now reached its apotheosis in the Bush II administration. To those readers who accuse me of being a troll, of "loving to be derogatory to Democrats," I can only say: what have you been doing to combat the right-wing for the past 30 years? When did you start speaking out against it, putting your neck on the line in public? Or do you confine yourself only to snarky web comments, under pseudonyms, against anyone who offends your refined sensibilities?

And one more word to those accusers: I support the constitutional Republic of the United States before any political party. And although I have never voted for any candidate who wasn't a Democrat -- and this will be my 30th* year of voting -- when I see the leadership of the Democratic Party acting in ways that aid and abet the destruction of the Republic, then by God, I will denounce them for it, and make no apologies for doing so.

Second, I'd like to address the Jason Leopold controversy, since that was drawn into the accuasations against me and probably contributed to the banning as well. In this regard, let me first clear up the quite frankly stupid accusations about me and Rich Kastelein (Ghandi). Rich is the webmaster at the blog I write, Empire Burlesque. He emailed me about the Jason Leopold controversy at Kos; I sent him a response, then did a quick comment, buried miles deep on an existing Kos thread that I thought was an appropriate venue. Maybe it was the wrong thread, I don't know, or maybe I should have put it in a diary; I could never really get a firm grasp on the somewhat Byzantine court etiquette at DK. (But then again, as an American living in England, I have a hard time getting a firm grasp on the social niceties here as well.)

But that's it. That's the extent of the "pseudo-lefty conspiracy" that was bruited by some Kos commenters, who came up with a new axis of evil: Leopold, Kastelein and Floyd. According to these febrile minds, Rich and I are actually one person, deviously posting under separate names, all to do the bidding of the Great Satan in Santa Monica, Leopold, acting as his "sock puppets." One excitable commenter even suggested that both Rich and I were fictitious creatures, fronts being used by Leopold himself.

I'm sorry these anonymous snark-puppies got themselves all het up, but none of this is true.
I simply wrote my own opinon of the Leopold matter. I've never met Jason Leopold, know him only by his work. And my comments dealt solely with his story about the Rove indictment and what I believe is the overreaction to it. Let me state it again: It seems to me that even in the worst-case scenario for the Leopold story, all you would have is that an investigative reporter got burned by his sources. This happens to every reporter; even Sy Hersh has been burned spectacularly on a few occasions. Again, the level of anger and personal animus at Leopold is incomprehensible to me. If the sources were wrong, either unwittingly or deliberately, then the story was wrong. This is an occupational hazard of journalism. Why this should result in such vitriolic personal attacks on Leopold is something I can't fathom.

Also, every single element of the Plame story and the Fitzgerald investigation has played out very slowly, with the truth emerging only months, even years later. Why should we assume that the denial of Rove's lawyer simply settles the matter? Why not let it play out and see what happens? Why this rush to pillory an investigator just because his story made some very powerful people uncomfortable for a minute or two? Yet the Kos FAQ now ranks Leopold with Lyndon LaRouche. I have to say -- and it gives me absolutely no pleasure to say it -- that some of these reactions remind me of old-time Soviet campaigns against someone who has departed from the established line. It was never enough simply to disagree, or to criticize in a rational fashion (e.g., "I think Jason has overstepped the mark here; perhaps his sources haven't given him reliable information; let's hold our fire on this story until we can learn more"); no, the target had to be personally smeared, banished, erased from the discourse. Maybe this doesn't bother other people, but it bothers me.

Anyway, that's the extent of the "conspiracy." Rich told me about the Leopold controversy; I posted my own, honest opinion of the affair, made no claims of secret insider knowledge about it; indeed, based most of my comment on what I considered to be the worst-case scenario: that Leopold was wrong. And I offered these opinions – as I have done for 30 years – in my own name, aboveboard, in public. For this, I've been transformed into a "troll," a conspirator, a pseudo-lefty (whatever the hell that is), a sock-puppet controlled by nefarious forces, etc. This isn't political discourse or honest debate; this is childish nonsense.

But perhaps I'm in the wrong. And I mean that sincerely. Perhaps I have been laboring under a misapprehension about the nature and purpose of the Kos community. I assumed that Daily Kos was a community devoted to dissent against the status quo -- against the manifold depredations of the Bush Regime, and also against the prevailing attitudes of quietism, corporatism and collusion that have characterized the Democratic leadership in general during the Bush years. Indeed, Kos himself and the larger DK community have earned a reputation as offering a viable alternative to the outmoded and obviously unsuccessful DLC philosophy. Therefore, based on these assumptions -- which I believe are sound -- I further assumed that my style of dissent against these same Bush depredations and Democratic failings would be welcome in the Kos community. Not that I expected or wanted everyone to agree with me on every point, but I never thought that either the style or the content of my writings would be considered beyond the pale.

Of course I recognize the need for monitoring comments, diaries etc. on a blog to weed out unacceptable material; I do that myself at my blog. I guess I'm just a bit surprised at where the lines of unacceptability are being drawn these days at Daily Kos.

Again, all this may be down to misapprehensions on my part. As it turns out, it's obvious that the Kos community wishes to hew to a much more centrist line, in tone and content, than I was aware of. This is a perfectly legitimate line to take. I suppose that my material and style were too strident (as a devoted centrist would see it) to fit in well with the goals of the Kos community, which seem to me to be aimed more at making practical changes in the Democratic Party. Again, a worthy goal.

But I personally am not a party activist. I'm not even a political activist. I don't have any ideological line to push, secretly or otherwise. I don't have any "agenda" at all, beyond wanting the government to quit committing so many goddamned crimes in my name, and a rather wan hope that maybe one day society can become more just and enlightened. The old Emersonian ideals still seem good to me. I write when something moves me -- often to outrage, but sometimes to hope or inspiration. I write to try to figure out what's going on in the world, to articulate my understanding of the world for myself and then convey this articulation to others, if I feel it might have some resonance, make some connection, be of some benefit by adding to the weight of dissent against political crime and folly. To borrow Eliot's phraseology, I write to contribute my fragment to shore up against the ruins. That's it.

If the way I do this was somehow injurious to or incompatible with the larger interests of the Kos community, then I guess I should be banned. Again, I only started cross-posting some of my material on Kos because I thought that perhaps my fragments might be simpatico with the folks there; since that's not the case, I'll simply continue to write elsewhere, and wish Kos and the Kossacks all success in whatever they seek to do.

*CORRECTION: I prematurely aged myself in the draft I posted earlier, referring to my 4oth year of voting. I must have been feeling my arthritis when I wrote that.*

Display:
I really wonder what's been going on on dKos with these troll wars. I have not been able, despite being a regular on the iste, to understand in the slightest what has been going on. Several people I saw regularly in my threads and other familiar names, including now you, apparently, have been banned. Really mysterious.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 05:52:41 PM EST
That would be both of us Jerome.

And strangely enough. After I gave a huge plug (which I have since removed) to dailykos.com for inspiring http://www.thankyourqwest.org which rocked through the MSM with coverage in the NYT, Denver Post, USA Today, Situation Room (CNN), Newsday New York, etc.

Go figure.

I am personally disgusted with the wolf packs at DK. Let them eat their own. Considerate intelligent discourse is one thing - what is happening there now is simply counterproductive.


Atlantic Free Press

by ghandi (expatforums@gmail.com) on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 06:07:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, I know I shouldn't but...

First off, I don't understand why people keep bringing their dirty laundry from DKos to be washed here.  Maybe you're hoping to find some sympathy in a certain FPer who has some sway over there.  But for the most part, it seems a little tacky.

That said, if you must do this, and I know it's frustrating to not be able to repsond to your critics directly, you should at least provide a link to the diary on which you were ostensibly unfairly treated.  Also, what is up with this talk of banning as a result of criticism of the Dem Party (or last week it was criticism of the troops that supposedly brought about the ban)?  People criticize the Party all the time over there.  I do.  I've not been banned...  Yet.

Perhaps you were troll-rated into oblivion for unproductive comments rather than censored for making valid critiques?  (btw, it is not clear from this diary who was banned: Ghandi or Chris Floyd...)

Besides, being banished to Siberia is hardly as rough as it used to be.  If you are lucky you'll be allowed the comforts of home, maybe even conjugal visits... I wouldn't stress out about it.  

Lastly, er, why doesn't Chris Floyd crosspost this stuff himself?  Too wierd...  I think you are maybe taking on a lot of responsibility outside your job description as a webmaster.  

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire

by p------- on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 06:07:34 PM EST
Ghandi has posted quite a few diaries here, and therefore is arguably part of the community - and we all share here our troubles in other parts of our lives.

I personally am not that interested in US politics or diaries about it, except as it directly impacts our lives here in Europe. Neither am I particularly keen on understanding the internal politics of the Blogosphere, except how it might inform some of my theories on non-hierarchical organizations/systems.

But as someone who has been banned (New European Times 2005) for mysterious reasons (but possibly the unilateralist ego of a retired Quaker lawyer), I can understand the need to share the mystery.

In peace ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 07:18:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]
huh.

I was banned there, too.

So I guess it's only a matter of time & you won't have ATinNM to kick around anymore on ET.  ;-)

Et tu, Jerome?

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 07:41:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]
You don't get banned here - you just get an anvil dropped on your head ;-)

You can't be me, I'm taken
by Sven Triloqvist on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 02:27:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I agree, here on ET we don't ban people. We first scold them, then we extend a hand in friendship, and then we scold them again. But there isn't much of the wolf pack mentality here. If someone is in a fight with someone, most people don't interfere ... we wait and see which way the fight's going to see who we'll be scolding next.
by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Jun 3rd, 2006 at 02:58:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
???

A society committed to the notion that government is always bad will have bad government. And it doesn't have to be that way. — Paul Krugman
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 03:33:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I meant was that we debate and correct, and welcome opppsing views, as long as they are founded in facts as we understand them.

Banning is a suppression of variant views. ET is totally at the other end of the scale of tolerance.

You can't be me, I'm taken

by Sven Triloqvist on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 02:05:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What are you disagreeing with?  That it is tacky?    You do it so gently, I can't tell! :)

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 02:00:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Thank you.

I am an Expat.... a Canadian-Cloggie who loves this site. And I have been through the machinations of expatica.com and their ballistic forums and an offshoot which I called my own.

Chris handled it well - and he deserves to not be 'Swift-boated' into silence. I agree.

As much as he hated posting about Daily Kos - and he expressed that - he felt it necessary.

C'est la Vie. Floyd is a very.... very cool guy. I respect him enough to volunteer.

He's one of the few guys left that can change the world with his pen. He's a MASTER of the language. He LIVES and BREATHES Oxford University - as an American Expat.

..

Atlantic Free Press

by ghandi (expatforums@gmail.com) on Fri Jun 2nd, 2006 at 10:13:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That comment to Page was clearly out of line and definitely deserved to be troll rated. As to whether it was enough to get you banned, I don't know. I certainly don't think it should be enough on its own.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 05:07:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yeah, I have no clue how banning over there works...

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
by p------- on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 01:58:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't see the comment.

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.
by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Jun 3rd, 2006 at 02:55:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I guess it has to do with the Trusted User status before one can see it. Oh vell.
by Nomad (Bjinse) on Sun Jun 4th, 2006 at 06:59:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
poemless: (btw, it is not clear from this diary who was banned: Ghandi or Chris Floyd...)

The way I read it, it was clear that both were banned:

Last week, I was banned from contributing to Daily Kos, ...(and our webmaster here, Richard Kastelein, who was also banned)


*Lunatic*, n.
One whose delusions are out of fashion.
by DoDo on Sat Jun 3rd, 2006 at 03:26:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't been able to comment on dKos for about 3 months now.  Why?  I have no idea.  Further, I don't care.  

Not being able to register for the convention is irritating but I've been deemed an no-good UnPerson before so I may just show-up and hang in the lobby & bar areas -- where all the real fun, and networking, will happen anyway.

(I've attended political convention speechs before zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Tue May 30th, 2006 at 07:37:38 PM EST
I had this discussion with Tobysmom while in Paris. it might be your browser. I cannot post a comment since they installed the new Ajax system, so maybe you have to update it.

(I am using Omniweb on Apple, which is known to lack the right Java skills)

Have you tried with a different browser? Firefox should work, but you might have some security settings that muck it up...

by PeWi on Sun Jun 4th, 2006 at 08:05:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I haven't like the angry emotional tone at Dkos for the last two + years...though I still find the site quite informative...I just am not attached to it. I prefer it here...maybe I have a bias for less emotionally-loaded stuff all the time...

"Once in awhile we get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if we look at it right" - Hunter/Garcia
by whataboutbob on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 06:54:46 AM EST
I used to comment on US politics elsewhere and found out that by and large the cultural assumptions that underpin my viewpoints were too likely to upset people. And frankly I got tired of being called a know-nothing limey who should just shut up. So I've never been tempted to join Kos.

Kos has always had more than its fair share of half-assed volatility. As much as they try to keep the debates clean and interesting, things can flip off track over there faster than Michael Schumaker can park his car in Monte Carlo.

Equally tho', it has definitely been attracting more wingnut interest as it becomes more influential. When they had no significance, nobody bothered them. Now, they're the Storm Crow and there will be tornadoes all over before November.

No, I'm not talking wingnuts bringing the racist bellicose nonsense from RedState. I'm talking about people who goad and spoil just to wreck the atmosphere. Who understand that they only have to upset the atmosphere a bit to stop Kos being the water-cooler visit for the liberal left who might become active.

I don't think it's democrats doing this. And I think it's deliberate.

So Kos is fighting back; banning people, perhaps too readily, because to do otherwise will leave a wasteland. What to do ? It's too busy to moderate - grief, this place is too busy to moderate, Kos would be a nightmare.

Unless maybe something like you can't post a thread unless you moderate the comments yourself. Which could be a nightmare. I dunno. I feel sorry for them and know it's going to get worse as November approaches.

Maybe one day we'll have to face the same issues, but I hope not.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Wed May 31st, 2006 at 04:08:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]
 I agree with the large parts of your diary (above) that I read and, if the link attached to "citicizing the Democratic cave-in" above, in the body of your diary is the text of what you'd posted at Dailykos, then I agree with that, too.

 The Democratic Party could become the party that supports and defends what I believe in but, first, it has to believe in something beyond its own narrow, petty selfish member-reëlection-for-the-sake-of-reëlection interests.

 And, yet, it doesn't.

  Funny, at DK they seem to have lost sight of the fact that critics are the source of the change that makes what doesn't work, work.  All the funnier since "Crashing the Gates" is a book written by party critics in which they present their criticisms of the party. Could it be that their criticisms are the only valid ones?

 If that is the case, then I say, "Good riddance, DK.  Who needs you?  I don't."

 [For those who wonder why this is posted here in the Eurotrib site, the answer is that it is topical to the thread in which it is found.  No one requires anyone to read these threads who may not approve of their subject matter, correct?  I approve; as indicated in the "people who have recommended this diary". ]

 

"In such an environment it is not surprising that the ills of technology should seem curable only through the application of more technology..." John W Aldridge

by proximity1 on Sat Jun 3rd, 2006 at 02:26:53 PM EST
So there is apparently a Great Purge going on at dKos.  I haven't read the site in a while, so I have no idea about what's going on over there.  I ran into too many vicious people who were completely lacking anything resembling a sense of humor, along with other people who were simply insane.  It's simply not a pleasant site to read anymore.

"Bill in Portland" -- at least I think that his screen name -- is the only blogger worth reading there.  "Cheers & Jeers" is always wonderful.

Wasn't Sterling Newberry banned, as well?

Be nice to America. Or we'll bring democracy to your country.

by Drew J Jones (pedobear@pennstatefootball.com) on Sat Jun 3rd, 2006 at 02:43:46 PM EST
@Helen:

half-assed volatility is what it's all about.

Is a political site to be a love-fest.

Hope to hell not.

"When the abyss stares at me, it wets its pants." Brian Hopkins

by EricC on Sat Jun 3rd, 2006 at 11:06:02 PM EST
...where attention goes.

alohapolitics.com
by Keone Michaels on Sun Jun 4th, 2006 at 01:00:15 AM EST


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