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***oneseat.eu

by nanne Tue Sep 19th, 2006 at 06:34:57 AM EST

Got this mass mail from Cecilia Malström in my inbox:

Dear all!

You are receiving this email because you are one of the more than 970 000 European citizens who have signed on www.oneseat.eu. The response has been fantastic all over placeEurope and the issue has been widely covered in the press and on blogs. Citizens from all 25 EU countries have signed. I have received thousands of encouraging emails. Thank you all for that! It shows that the issue of the European Parliament's seat is truly something that many Europeans care about.

We are now very close to reaching the goal of one million signatures but there is still some more work to do. Therefore I kindly ask you all to send www.oneseat.eu to all your friends, family and colleagues, asking them to sign.
If all of you manage to get one extra signature our goal will easily be reached and we can take the issue to Commissioner Wallström as soon as the Commission resumes after the summer break.

My deepest thanks to all of you!


***From the front page


I think this is a worthwile initiative - the monthly move to and from Strasbourg is a major drag upon the European Parliament, it wastes money, time and resources. And Parliament should have the ability to decide itself where it holds its sessions. That's my opinion, but this is of course also a place for discussion. What can you say for and against this initiative?

A number of starting points:

  • Almost half of these 1 million signatures come from the Netherlands

  • As an online petition, the oneseat campaign does not have adequate guards. Some people have abused this to sign under false names, more than once, etc. They'll have to use a rather long purge list.

  • Strasbourg. Should it be maintained for some reason? Should the French be given some form of compensation if not?

Poll
Where Should the European Parliament have its Seat?
. Let the European Parliament Decide 13%
. One Seat in Strasbourg 40%
. One Seat in Brussels 26%
. Dual Seat in Strasbourg and Brussels (as it is) 6%
. Dual Seat in Brussels and Budapest 0%
. The Seat of the European Parliament Should Travel 13%

Votes: 15
Results | Other Polls
Display:
Oh baby, flamewar alert!

Personally I am in favour of either putting the EU parliament into a single place, likely Brussels, but wherever the MEPs choose is fine by me,

OR, if there is to be a parliament that moves, I'd like to see a real rationale for it and not just some minor procedural advantages that amount to people making the best of it.

I say this because I do have a rationale for a mobile parliament, but it requires one that moves between a site in the West and a site in the East of the EU. So, for illustrative value, Brussels and Budapest.

My flimsy rationale for that is that I would in principle like a "travelling parliament" so that citizens everywhere could see the democracy in action, but that's likely to costly and impractical, so I'd settle for bringing it nearer to two halves of the population.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:36:35 PM EST
You need to add a poll. Some options:
  • Brussels
  • Strasbourg
  • EP vote
  • Other (please explain)

Personally, I think Strasbourg.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:48:56 PM EST
Done. I think I covered most possible options (other than the EP should be abolished along with the rest of the eeevil EU). Further suggestions are welcome.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:28:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]
My first reaction was: Is this what my (as in swedish) parliamentarians are doing with their time. Arguing about where the parliament should be situated?

But then again, as little power as the parliament has, maybe getting the power to decide the location is a step in the right direction.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 09:31:55 PM EST
One of the reasons the EP is ineffective is that they have to plan a huge logistics operation every month to move everything (and I mean everything - drawers, papers, staff, etcetera) from Brussels to Strasbourg.

So getting the power to decide is not only a step in the right direction, it will also directly contribute to the EP's effectiveness.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:19:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
This is so sad... That in the age of transnational corporations and a globalised economy and communications, of Internet, fax, mobile phones, videoconference, when crowds jump on planes (to the detriment of the environment, alas) to commute or take weekend breaks, when more and more people engage seriously with work from a distance and the home office, that the European Parliament is forced to load up furniture, papers, etc in the move between Brussels and Strasbourg.

If this is in fact what they're doing, then I suggest that their "ineffective" nature stems more from plain bumbling inefficiency than any real formal constraints. To be clear, it should be perfectly possible in this day and age to organize the move with a minimum amount of fuss and a maximum of well-designed communications.

The importance of the "trek" is overblown. Particularly by UK Eurosceptics for whom this "issue" is a sacred cow. Getting the EP out of Strasbourg is all part, for them, of diminishing France's importance in the EU, which is again part of limiting the EU to a simple free-trade zone.

If there had to be one seat, though, it should not be Brussels. The EP and its members and staff should not spend all their time hobnobbing with the EC people and the lobbyists. Strasbourg has the facilities. It's in an area that symbolizes peace between two European powers whose fighting caused the most terrible wars in our history. So why not Strasbourg?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:50:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Surely, an effective parlementarian could just take her laptop with integrated webcam, blackberry, pack a bag of clothes and jump on a train. But not everybody can work that way yet.

Hobknobbing with the executive is an important part of how politics gets made. I wonder, are there any other examples of a country or even international organisation where the executive and the legislative are geographically separated?

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 08:22:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
not everybody can work that way yet

I wasn't suggesting it was quite as easy as you say, but that good office organisation, good networks, could most certainly reduce the hassle. And if it was organised for the whole EP, everyone could benefit. I don't understand the argument that says we have representatives and their staff who are not yet capable of living with the information age, if the infrastructure is provided.

Those who complain of moving drawers and papers and everything are indulging in a little special pleading, imo -- and those who have made this a big media issue are the Eurosceptics I mentioned above.

The point that legislature and executive have historically sited themselves together in capital cities isn't conclusive, to my mind. There is a principle of good government which is the separation of powers. In some cases (say, Washington, DC) the ethos of close contact along with the presence of powerful lobbyists is not felt to be productive of trust in the democratic process (I'm being polite there). Brussels has already got itself a reputation (Brussels speaking to Brussels), and I think separation is a viable option. Plus, the EU has no "capital", so we're not obliged to do as past nation-states have done.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 08:51:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The supposed "waste" of resources is just part of the permanent euroskeptic campaign against the EU.

Nest they'll start arguing against all the waste in translating all EU documents in so many languages when one language, English, would do just fine. Billions could be saved.

I call bullshit. The Parliament already has one seat: Strasbourg.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:21:33 AM EST
The logical outcome of your argument is that no discussion of any structural features of the EU can ever take place.

So, if the parliament has one seat, Strasbourg, why does it keep travelling to Brussels?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:06:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Can "discussion of structural features of the EU by people whose sole purpose is to make the EU irrelevant" be treated differently from "discussion of structural features of the EU"?

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 08:54:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can say that it has it's seat in Strasbourg, but that's mere symbolism. Like this text from the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe (6th protocol):

1. The European Parliament shall have its seat in Strasbourg, where the 12 periods of monthly plenary sessions, including the budget session, shall be held. The periods of additional plenary sessions shall be held in Brussels. The committees of the European Parliament shall meet in Brussels. The General Secretariat of the European Parliament and its departments shall remain in Luxembourg.

This means that the Parliament will spend 80% of its time in Brussels. So for all practical purposes, you have two seats. Now, I basically think that face-time matters in politics, so I would favour concentrating everything in Brussels, I think the EP would be more effective that way. It's not just about the money...
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:55:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
That's because the UK euroskeptics have used every opportunity to bring work to Brussels (first the extraordinary sessions, then the committees, etc....), chipping away at Strasbourg's role one brick at a time.

Thier whole goal is to create inefficiency and absurdities to get to the point where a "clean break" appears to make a lot of sense.

And France has never cared much about the European Parliament and has never defended it much (it's the Germans that have done most of the fighting on this).

Let's bring all the work back to Strasbourg. As to transporting offices and files, who the fuck are we kidding? That's just voluntary theatre.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 08:04:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Jérôme, I've signed the petition some time ago, and also voted here expressing the desire for the parliament to be moved to Brussels (so far no-one else has done so). My reasoning was reduction of expenditure and more impact of the parliament decisions on the other, non  directly elected, centres of decision of the EU.

However, I do recognize that the intention of an important part of the European economical elite is to use the European Comission to destroy the European Social Model and leads us forward to XIXth, early XXth century capitalism. They want Brussels to become another Capitol Hill.

The fact is I'm not not aware how the institutions function in practise. I just know that decisions are made  based in trust, and that we may trust (above a certain point, of course) only those we actually meet. So I figured it would be better if all institutions were in a single place.
what is your reasoning? perhaps I am poorly evaluating some issues. my next two questions address two key points. Is it that simply the European Parliament has sufficient importance for agents in need to speak with the members of parliament to be willing to travel to Strasburg? Is it that moving the parliament to Brussels will actually decrease the relative weight of the EP?

The German backing of European Parlamentarianism is very telling. They are the major force behind federalism. After all, the statehood of Germany it is still in (at least) theoretical discussion. It is quite funny to see that, if we search around in the set of European states, we can find rebellion and heterodoxy towards world-scale, or continental-scale, generally accepted ideas on social structure. It seems that national cultures - and notice that we may have several nations under a single state, generally ruled by a monarch (it's the usual trick) -, have developed particular sensitivity to this or that manifestations of individual freedom.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:15:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think, form circumstancial evidence, that the European Parliament has now become sufficiently powerful that lobbyiest now know they hwve to come to it to get their view point across.

However that does not mean that this would not also be the case in Brussels as well. But it does mean that being in Strasbourg does not reduce its influence, and it may well be that being away from 'inside the Beltway' does give it more perspective which is valuable.

I'd even say that the current arrangement combines both easy access to the Brussels structure wit htheability to do things differently, and is a good thing overall. The cost issue is, in my mind, not very important.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:16:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'll add something regarding the cost issue, which is just as true in the corporate world:

"costs" are insignificant if you are talking about productive members of the Parliament (just like they are insignificant for any revenue-generating executive), and they will ALWAYS be too high for those that are inefficient and effectively parasites of the system. Limiting them to economy class instead of business class or any per diam amount for food and lodging may limit the waste but does not eliminate the fact that any money spent on them is wasted.

Meanwhile, applying rules to all alienates everybody (including the productive members) and is ultimately counter-productive in my view.

As (in my view) a revenue generating executive, I regularly have fights over what can be considered legitimate expenses. As I do not use corporate credit cards or the like but spend my own money, I take the risk and spend when I feel it is justified, and then go to my management to get reimbursed even if it's against the rules. It works.

To me, the cost issue is a populist distraction.

(And yeah, I know it's easy to say that after spending 200 euros per persons in a restaurant, with plenty of fine food and alcohol, but it's still true. Most of these dinners are either absolute chores or well earned perks).

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:46:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Certainly.
by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 12:08:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The ability to do things differently - from politicians turned corporate puppets - represents no less than avoiding decadence.
You're right, we can forget the costs.

The European Parliament so far does things better, or differently. Why? because it was directly elected (and by proportional voting, or close)? because Members of European Parliament (MEPs) have not yet been subjected to lobbying as intensively? Because MEPs are in much bigger number than Commissioners? Because they are not in the Brussels political environment?
These questions came to mind. Not that they should be necessarily analysed either today or on this particular thread.

by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 12:04:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
in second paragraph, the first phrase was left incomplete.
By differently I meant taking in concern first other interests, i.e. those of the general public. it was intend to be a longer way of saying better.
by findmeaDoorIntoSummer on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 12:17:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually one thought I have had for some time is that maybe we could offer the Strasbourg facilities as a proper home for the UN. It does after all have enough room for the General Assembly and more than enough office space to house the UN.

Locating it in an area that was once the source of conflict between two nations and lately has become the embodiment of peace through co-operation would do no harm. It would also stop the American whinging about being governed from Manhatten.  

by Londonbear on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:37:35 AM EST
What can't the UN go back to Geneva?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:58:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I was in Geneva earlier this year - beautiful city, although extremely expensive in comparison to Berlin. Also went to the UN's 'Palais des Nations' there. The neigbourhood definitely has plenty room for more development.

Actually the UN should stay where it is, what they need are additional offices in Asia (Korea, I'd say) and South America.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:42:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Oh, this is what is meant by "one seat". Before reading this diary I thought it would be about an EU campaign to get rid of the UK and France on the Security Council and replace them with "one seat" for the entire EU. Now where was I getting that idea from ...?
by Alex in Toulouse on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 06:41:10 AM EST
Let's suppose -- and it's a big suppose because it would be cutting European seats by half -- that France and the UK agreed on that, and the EU would take their place. Who do you think would be opposed to that plan?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:19:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The UK and France seats could be replaced with an EU seat and an additional veto member. Who are the candidates for that? Brazil? South Africa? Japan? India?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:21:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we're going to shift this to big states, India is the only one that makes sense IMO.

Japan, South Africa, Mexico, Indonesia and Brazil could become 5 further permanent members without a veto.

A precondition for this change is that the EU gets a real common foreign and security policy.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 08:04:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So you're saying

US, EU, Russia, China, India permanent with veto
Japan, South Africa, Mexico, Indonesia, Brazil permanent without veto
and five additional rotating members?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 08:09:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes. But maybe 10 additional rotating members (EU Member States excluded).
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 08:24:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you have Europe without the EU, North America without the US or Mexico, South America without Brazil, Africa without South Africa, Asia without China, India, Indonesia or Japan... I think 5 rotating members might be enough. There aren't so many groups left.

But this is never going to happen.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 08:31:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Actually, with simultaneous election of all five by single transferable vote at the general assembly you don't even need to select the rotating members by groups. Any group of 1/6 of the member nations can get one of their candidates into the UNSC every time.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 08:38:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Cutting European permanet seats by half in exchange for an additional rotating seat for "Western Europe and Others" would also be a possibility.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:22:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but my question was who would be likely to be opposed to a change that took the UK out per se and promoted the EU to geopolitical bloc status?
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:54:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The UK and the US, presumably.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 07:56:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The response has been fantastic all over placeEurope and the issue has been widely covered in the press and on blogs. Citizens from all 25 EU countries have signed. I have received thousands of encouraging emails. Thank you all for that! It shows that the issue of the European Parliament's seat is truly something that many Europeans care about.
(my bold)

I've tried to address the issue up to now, but looking at this e-mail again I can't help but be surprised by it.

Who is she fooling, that many Europeans care about this? What kind of comment on Europe is it, that a movement like this one can generate so much apparent support and enthusiasm? You know, folks all over the EU are just holding their breath until this issue is dealt with?

Nuts. Either this is puffery (meaning there aren't anything like that number of signatures), or there are some big movers behind this, getting it media coverage and banging the drum where it matters. Maybe a bit of both.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 09:15:00 AM EST
Who is she fooling, that many Europeans care about this? What kind of comment on Europe is it, that a movement like this one can generate so much apparent support and enthusiasm? You know, folks all over the EU are just holding their breath until this issue is dealt with?

This is worrisome. The FFII has only managed to garner 450k signatures against software patents, an issua with major economic and technological implications, in years of trying and these people have nearly 1M already?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 09:38:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If we must accept it's true, it's worrisome. Nanne suggests there may be online shenanigans in the petition.  I also think it's not a spontaneous netroots movement.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 09:44:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you look at the FFII signatures page there is also quite a bit of spam in it... Plus, didn't nanne imply that half of the signatures come from the Netherlands?

With all this astroturfing going around, even the idea of grassroots movements is going to end up discredited. But if they can whip up some interest and the thing grows and gets a life of its own, does it ultimately matter how the movement was seeded?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 09:47:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, I was thinking of astroturf. As to your further question, you're right it doesn't matter how it starts if it gets legs. However, I think there's a natural limit to that, in that large numbers of people are not really going to start frothing at the mouth over what is so patently a minor issue that doesn't impact their lives.

Meanwhile, the appearance may be fabricated...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 09:54:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The signatures are tracked on this site.

I don't know why the signatures from NL are so high. Could be that the political parties here organised support, or that it got a lot of attention in the big media. I guess I should do some research here...

You have to give an e-mail address for verification, so the possibilities of fraud should be limited to some extent.

As to Astroturf, that's pretty far off since this isn't represented as a grassroots movement. It's organised by a MEP and the people on the support list all are politicians. I also don't think this is beyond the organising capacity of one, or a group of MEPs. Online petitions come cheap...

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 04:09:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Astroturf -- yes, you may well be right. Now I've tried to look at some of the support for this in the UK (the colossal level of NL support I don't understand) it's obvious a considerable number of MEPs are supporting this, and of course they can get things moving.

Some of them may see the single seat as a means of increasing the EP's efficiency. I also get the feeling (unfortunately -- see comments below) that the desire, for UK MEPs, to nip over to Brussels for a three-day week and be at home the rest of the time is fairly strong. It's not a question of laziness but of visibility. These are pols of a certain level who don't want to drop out of sight in their party or region/country. Being away on parliamentary business isn't good for this.

(A similar problem can be observed within a Member State of large surface area like France, where deputies try to reduce parliamentary work in Paris to the shortest week possible so they can be present in their sometimes distant constituencies.)

It's a complex question, because representatives who were away all the time would perhaps do better parliamentary work, but would contribute to the widespread perception of European institutions as remote and unconcerned with citizens' everyday life.

Overall, however, the anti-travelling circus issue is, I think, deliberately overblown by Eurosceptics and played on in the media, English-language in particular.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 03:50:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
What I found on this browsing through the internets is that it was just referred to on a lot of weblogs in NL, among them a couple of larger politician's blogs like Jan Marijnissen (of the socialist party).

Within the right-liberal VVD party there seems to have been a lobby for the petition which went to the individual member's meetings (this blog suggests as much).

Other than that, it may simply have snowballed. We Dutchies are famed for our stinginess, after all...

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:19:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, the reference to astroturf was made before udnerstanding this was a campaign mostly among MEPs. Are they gathering citizens' signatures because their 100-strong group has reached some sort of ceiling and they need some help to make it an issue with the rest of the EP?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sun Sep 17th, 2006 at 05:29:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The oneseat.eu site links to epreform.net as the sole outside link. It is spearheaded (or figureheaded, maybe?) by Cecilia Malström, MEP for the Swedish Liberal Party (part of ALDE, the European Liberal Democrats).

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 09:51:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EPReform (about 100 MEPs of all groups) say they're all about making Parliament transparent and accountable, but they appear in fact to be a single-issue movement.

I have no doubt they'll end up by getting their way and all being comfortably set up in Brussels. Which will do nothing for transparency and accountability. And I predict EPReform will then disappear as a movement.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:06:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
EPReformL The Reform Pledge
Towards a more Efficient, Transparent, and Accountable European Parliament

...

If elected Member of the European Parliament in June 2004, I pledge to work for

  • Greater Efficiency by demanding an end to the European Parliament's three working places arrangement, and giving it a single seat - in Brussels
  • Enhanced Transparency through reform of the system of expenses, including the  reimbursement of travel expenses only on the basis of costs actually incurred;
  • Improved Accountability, through the introduction of a strengthened code of conduct setting out MEPs' rights and responsibilities, and through further reform of Parliament's Rules of Procedure.


Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:14:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The diary is about single seat, so I'll won't comment on that here.

But the other two are like "motherhood and apple pie," very difficult to argue against without engaging with the detail, which of course they don't provide on the website.

They do have a list of "40 roll calls votes" some of which are about "single seat" but there are others:

http://www.ep-reform.net/reformvotes.html

(I tried cutting and pasting, but it didn't look right.)

They look superficially reasonable, but could be an attempt to make the functioning of the parliament unworkable, I don't know...

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:26:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Why should voters care that a candidate for MEP has signed this pledge? Do these people really think these issues are the most pressing facing the European Parliament?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:29:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Corruption and inefficiency in the parliament is always a hot button issue in most democracies.

It is true that in most of the "First World" they are not actually real problems, but they are symbolic of the legitimacy of the governing process and that is why they will always garner large amounts of attention.

I'd put it to you and afew that the "single seat" is also part of this. It's an issue because the European Parliament is slowly struggling towards legitimacy as an entity. As such these symbolic issues come to the fore as ways to instantiate that debate.

To explain my point about legitimacy, if we think back to when "Europe was strong as a concept" I think we're looking back to a period when the central driving force was the commission.

As the Parliament becomes more and more the focus, so it's legitimacy will come up in the discourse.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:45:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Good points all of them.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:04:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I don't disagree except that I don't see how and why a single seat would confer legitimacy -- or rather, how being in the Brussels fleshpots three days a week confers legitimacy.

Legitimacy needs to be earned in rather different ways.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]
To be clear, I'm not advocating that it should be a "single seat" in Brussels. I could be perfectly happy with "only Strasbourg" or, as I'll come to, a different solution.

However, humans are funny creatures and they do like their institutions (largely) to have homes. That is one thought for a "single seat."

(This also extends to people, I'm not "homeless" but since I'm not actually having a "home" at the moment, you can see how it affects people's reactions.)

Or, IMO (not humble at all) if you're not going to confer legitimacy by having a "real home" then you need to make a real virtue out of travelling. Moving from Brussels to Strasbourg and back again has all the symbolic power of shifting a conference from Toulouse to Lyon. I'd rather see something that attempts to embrace the diversity of the EU.

I don't say this as a Eurosceptic, I hope you can believe me on that, but beyond the desire to hobnob with the Brussels set, where is the philosophical, symbolic rationale for not just staying in Strasbourg?

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 12:04:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]
If I understand you, you're advocating (heh!) a real "travelling circus". Ideally, I wouldn't be against it. The EP could settle for a session (a year?) in one place or another and go a progress throughout Europe.

Infrastructure would be a problem. But not all that much if, as I suggested above, a well-designed IT effort was made. The EU would gain in the overall perception of cohesion and of representativeness that citizens of different countries would get. The EP might learn from being in contact with different cultures and conditions.

I don't think I do understand your final paragraph. Could you rephrase it?

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 12:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The EP doesn't even have sessions or commitees half the woking days of the year. They can share the facilities of a national or regional parliament.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 12:41:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Until a few years ago, they shared the same facilities as the Council of Europe, and it was fine. It's only when (French) real estate developers promoters successfully pushed the great idea of building a dedicated building in Brussels for the Parliament that Strasbourg (and France) found itself forced to build its own.

both are a waste.

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 01:08:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The last paragraph.

Basically:

1) I hope we can agree that I'm not saying this as a Eurosceptic, especially given that in my utopian world I advocate a "travelling circus."

But I want to ask

2) I'm not sure I see a legitimate reason for the Parliament to be split between Brussels and Strasbourg rather than just staying in Strasbourg with a few (4 times a year?) visits to hob-nob with the bureaucrats in Brussels? Is there one, or is this current travelling just born out of history?

There is always a decent argument for "leaving things well alone" but I do think that whether we choose "single seat" "Brussels & Strasbourg" or "travelling circus" we should be making the choice out of a philosophy of what benefits are gained. I personally feel that the current arrangement between B&S doesn't have a good rationale behind it, but I'm open to be convinced.

by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 12:58:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]
OK, that is what I thought you were saying.

I'm not defending the Brussels-Strasbourg commute because I think it's useful. I'm saying complaints about it are overstated by people with (at least in many cases) ulterior motives.

I voted in the poll for Strasbourg alone. As I said above, I'm not against a travelling parliament either. I don't think a single seat in Brussels is a good idea.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 02:10:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
The list of 2004 candidates who took the pledge is interesting. The bulk comes from the Netherlands and the UK, where it may have been a campaign issue or a party platform. In the UK it's mostly LibDems and Greens, in the Netherlands it's more varied. On the face of it it doesn't seem like a standard Eurosceptic group, but I note that Spain, france, Italy and Greece were not represented, and Portugal only by one (Socialist) MEP.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:38:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]
There would seem to have been list rulings for the UK Greens, for instance. The list of actual MEP members is less hugely British. It's a drag that checking some of them out individually screws up due to a double http on the URLs of their web sites.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:58:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]
While trying to check if the Eng&Wales Greens have a position on this (I can't find one) I noticed that Caroline Lucas MEP is Green MEP for South-East England and a member of the EP Committee for Industry, Trade, Research, and Energy, and would be therefore a good person to send the Open Letter to.

I'll send a PDF copy of the Open Letter to whoever pings my e-mail for it.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:18:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looking at the Lib Dems. I had to use Search to get to their MEPs. There's Britain, and there's International. Speaks volumes.

Another MEP on the ITRE Committee is Fiona Hall, North-East England.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:30:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Looking at the Lib Dems. I had to use Search to get to their MEPs. There's Britain, and there's International. Speaks volumes.

Can you elaborate?

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:32:35 AM EST
[ Parent ]
On the Lib Dem home page, I could find no mention of Europe or MEPs, though they have a dozen. I tried "International", and it took me to some blether about spreading democracy in the world (not the neocon variety, all the same...)

So I used site search to get to their MEPs.

The Greens were slightly better, but not much.

Question to a Green MEP: "Don't you spend all your time in Brussels?" (sub-text: you're doing sweet FA for me).
Answer: "I'm in London a lot of the time." (subtext: where at least I'm relevant.)

Strasbourg just doesn't exist. Admitting they actually have to go there is a bad PR plan.

The Continent is an island off in the fog somewhere...

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:48:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, but the issue they're really at work on is bringing the EP to Brussels.

The third point is suitably vague, imo.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:29:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I'm not endorsing anything, just digging up information...
Since 1999, much has done to improve the way Parliament works. The following, in our view, are among our most important achievements, many of which are the result of the work of individual Members of CPR working through Parliament's committees and official bodies to achieve change.  

What we've done
» Abolition of badly-attended but costly Friday meetings in Strasbourg
» Members Statute
» Public debates for President of Parliament and Ombudsman
» Modernisation of the Parliament's administration and Management
» Full access to parliamentary documents
» Financing of European Political Parties



Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Well, they may reckon they helped bring these things about. They don't make clear if it was a terrible fight for them: possibly other MEPs agreed on these changes anyway.

I note the first, most concrete point: chipping away a day in Strasbourg that MEPs attended badly.

by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 10:43:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]
In other words: reducing their working week from 4 days to 3 days so they could take a longer weekend.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:04:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I need to find a way to become an MEP.
by Metatone (metatone [a|t] gmail (dot) com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:20:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Constituency work, Mr Migeru, constituency work.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:34:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]
They have entire weeks set aside for that.

Those whom the Gods wish to destroy They first make mad. — Euripides
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 11:38:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]
It's never enough. See my comment above about a Greeen MEP answering questions.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Sat Sep 16th, 2006 at 12:02:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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