Top Diaries

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2007/jan/28/note_to_nancy_pelosi_challenge_market_fundamenta lism

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

There is a thread on this by Ruth Rosen (one of the founders) on TPMcafe (with my 2 cents as well as many others).

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Jan 30th, 2007 at 09:51:10 PM EST

My $0.02 there is an argument that the perverse properties of information in health-insurance markets undercut universal market fundamentalism at a wonkish level, while showing why one can advocate universal health coverage without advocating a principle that supports commie-socialism. (The essence: Usually, perfect information helps to perfect a market; here, perfect information would destroy it.)

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:04:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Market Fundamentalism (4.00 / 4)

Kind of.

The point about market fundamentalism is that it's a fantastic misdirection. Market pirates and locusts aren't really all that interested in markets, and they're certainly not interested in running them according to fair and open rules.

What they're really interested in is domination of every feature of their environment, creating a vast asset sink with themselves in the middle, gulping down as much negative entropy as they can find.

Which is why the 'health care' industry is only tangentially interested in providing health care, and far more interested in creating predatory relationships which allow it to feed off its victims parasitically.

The best model for corporations isn't a religious one. The religious model explains one common kind of signalling and indoctrination strategy, but it's not the whole picture.

The most accurate model is the termite nest with the queen in the middle, and the drones working mindlessly around her. The difference is that termite nests are mostly steady-state and have very limited growth rates, while corporations are built to expand their influence at every possible opportunity using every possible physical, emotional and intellectual tool that their environment can provide.

by ThatBritGuy (thatbritguy (at) googlemail.com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 09:51:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I understand your point. Any undercutting by the argument above would very much be limited to "a wonkish level", which, as you suggest, is far from the level of corporate operations and propaganda.

Corporation are indeed emergent systems driven to act with "interests" not necessarily aligned with those of any human being. This is hard to avoid, given their evolutionary pressures, but different corporate governance structures can make a difference.

What I would like to know is why the law imposes a fiduciary responsibility on boards of directors and company managers that requires them (for example) to poison children with bright, cheery, toxic food dyes? That is, provided that the poisoning promises to increase (wrongly defined) shareholder value, and isn't (yet) prohibited by law. And, of course, this principle may similarly mandate that they lobby against such a law...

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 03:50:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Point of Personal Exasperation, Mr. Chairman!

There is no aether. There is no philogeston. There is no Philosopher's Stone. One cannot fly to the moon on gossamer wings. There is no such thing as "perfect information" of a market.

Insisting what is Not, is operative, only lands the thinker in a vat of intellectual goo.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 10:55:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree entirely. It is often useful, though, to consider ideal limiting cases when trying to understand how systems change as they move in that direction (even though the limit can never be reached). My point is that increasing information, e.g., of customer's genes and the risks they imply, undercuts the value of insurance in a market that is free to use that information. Ideally, it destroys the very value of the product. This runs contrary to the foundations of market fundamentalism.

Besides, the argument is directed to the wonkish wing of a group that plans already the glory of wingéd lunar flight.

Words and ideas I offer here may be used freely and without attribution.

by technopolitical on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 at 03:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's too bad that "cheap labor conservatives" never caught on. Maybe kos needs to get into propaganda, err, marketing. Who else has the power to spread left wing memes?

you are the media you consume.

by MillMan (millguy at gmail) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 01:12:47 AM EST

Memes (4.00 / 3)

A pretty good one on dKos: Let's call them Republican Americans

Now that's a brilliant idea...

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 03:06:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Memes (4.00 / 5)

Great link!

"Most Republican Americans, when pressured, will candidly admit that white-collar crime is not an American problem, but a Republican-American problem."

"Police have few leads in the stock fraud case, but say the perpetrator was a Republican-American man, age 50 to 60, balding, of average height and weight. If you see a Republican-American man matching that description, you are encouraged to call the number on your screen."

"Critics of the tax break say it unfairly benefits Republican Americans, for whom government assistance has become a way of life."

Don't fight forces, use them R. Buckminster Fuller.

by rg (leopold dot lepster at google mail dot com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 04:18:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We've been calling them that on and off for ages - it's clearly a religious movement rather than anything else.

by Colman (colman at eurotrib.com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 09:11:28 AM EST

From your Link (4.00 / 2)

Ruth Rosen (and others) define it thusly ...

Market Fundamentalism, the exaggerated and quite irrational belief in the ability of markets to solve all problems, an economic fundamentalism that has dominated our national political debate for a generation.

And, this is correct. There is a role for markets, for capitalism -- but with appropriate and well-enforced regulation and delineation.

For example, re pollution and global warming, if 'costs to the commons' were put into the calculation, the "market" would be working in a far less damaging way.

And, in the United States, at least, much of the tax code and financial concepts operate against the right choice (e.g., financial penalty against capital investment upfront to reduce energy costs/environmental footprint (39.5 year depreciation) versus ability to deduct that year all utility expenses; focus on quarterly returns rather than long-term; etc). That is one reason why Energize America (www.ea2020.org) placed a focus on seeking to Make the Right Choice The Easy Choice" when it came to energy issues.

NOW -- ONE EXCEPTION -- COMMENT to the diary -- I promise you, this is far from the "world's shortest diary". Have seen too many one sentence ones (or, to get past systems that prevent that, diaries with the same sentence repeated five times ...).

Thank you for the link, I missed it and am glad to have read it.

Blogging regularly at Get Energy Smart. NOW!!!

by a siegel (siegeadATgmailIGNORETHISdotPLEASEcom) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 09:22:24 AM EST

Wiki: Market Fundamentalism

Found it searching for Soros, actually. Here's a couple of outtakes of his book 'The Crisis of Global Capitalism' on the Third World Traveller site (interesting site, too, been around for ages).

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 03:32:17 PM EST

Does anyone else remember back when Somalia was the wet dream of US libertarianism? (Well, the fundies among them, to be completely fair.)

by Trond Ove on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 06:21:46 PM EST

What? That is crazy...

I must have missed that. Do you have any examples?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 06:59:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I tried to google it now, but all I could find was articles ridiculing it. I do remember searching for it earlier thought, and finding alot of strange, earnest libertarian articles on it. The wikipedia article on Somalia were also full of it. All that is left now seems to be a laudable passage about Somalias booming telecoms industry.

by Trond Ove on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 07:03:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ah well,
crazy people.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 07:10:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, I remember the Wikipedia articles. Maybe looking at the talk pages and the history will uncover some stuff.

Not only the telecom sections, also the electricity and transportation sections contain some vague language about "thriving" sectors and "entrepreneurs".

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 07:11:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wikipedia that indeed point the way. Found what I suspect to be their central:

SomaliaAnarchy

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 07:27:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Somalia is a prime example of functioning anarchocapitalism, didn't you know that?

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 07:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Must have missed the memo.

Did anyone bother to tell the somalis?

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 07:11:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I remember debates on the Anarchy article, around the question of "functioning anarchies". Christiania, Somalia and the Spanish Revolution (in Catalonia at the start of the Civil War) were put forward as examples.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 07:16:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, anarchism is a nebulous term. I know a few anarchists, and none of them would claim Somalia was anarchistic in their meaning of the word. But then, there are about as many different types of anarchism as there are anarchists. I find the libertarian-leaning crowd among them to be almost as unendurable as randites.

by Trond Ove on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 07:24:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Anarchism (4.00 / 5)

there are about as many different types of anarchism as there are anarchists

There are more...

"Dieu se rit des hommes qui se plaignent des conséquences alors qu'ils en chérissent les causes" Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

by Melanchthon on Wed Jan 31st, 2007 at 09:39:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I had a friend who convinced me that the essence of anarchism is that everyone should organise themselves as they damn well please, which implies as many flavours of anarchism as organisational units.

"It's the statue, man, The Statue."

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 03:36:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Market Fundamentalism (4.00 / 3)

The anarchists i met back then in College seemed to limit their "organization" to the individual. And even that was doubtful, given their level of hygiene.

by Torres on Thu Feb 1st, 2007 at 06:22:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I much prefer the anarchism of Emma Goldman and her contemporaries. Though she talks about current events and things to be done, rather then theory.

But from what I gathered from her writings she see anarchism as something like this:

Freedom from want and oppression
Freedom from leaders, that is power to the people

Freedom from leaders does not imply lack of structure, but rather more structure (but without oppression).

During the russian revolution anarchists and anarchist press often supported the independence of local soviets (which is a russian word for council) against central power in Moscow. They saw the local councils as being closer to the people as well as more democratic.

Unsurprisingly many 19th century russian anarchists looked at the US as being better - more anarchist - in many aspects then Russia.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 at 05:54:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And by these criteria Somalia is of course not quite an anarchy. Lots of leaders there as well as want and oppression.

In fact, I doubt that anarchy (as above) could even be see as an ideal that can be fulfilled. Want and oppression on one hand is hardly easily defined as soon as you are out of starvation and the crack of the whip. Freedom from leaders is also tougher the more anarchistic it gets.

Sweden's finest (and perhaps only) collaborative, leftist e-newspaper Synapze.se

by A swedish kind of death on Fri Feb 2nd, 2007 at 06:03:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]