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Cynicism unconcealed

by Cyrille Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 04:35:37 PM EST

AP: Kadhafi: Dassault invite Yade à "s'occuper de ses affaires" AP: Ghadafi: Dassault invites Yade to "mind her own business"
PARIS - Serge Dassault a estimé mardi qu'il "fallait savoir ce que l'on veut" après la polémique concernant la venue du colonel Moammar Kadhafi en visite officielle en France et conseillé à la secrétaire d'Etat aux Droits de l'Homme Rama Yade -qui s'était publiquement émue de la venue du chef d'Etat libyen- de "s'occuper de ses affaires". PARIS - Serge Dassault reckoned on tuesday that "we must decide what we want" after the polemic around the visit in France of colonel Muhammar Ghadafi and advised secretary of State for Human Rights Rama Yade, who expressed her reservations against the visit of the Lybian head of State, to "mind her own business".

Wow.

I am told Sarkozy launched some sort of media operation to neutralize this, so to the Front Page with it - Diary rescue by Migeru


"Qu'elle s'occupe de ses affaires: Sarkozy dirige la France, il fait vendre des produits à l'étranger et c'est très bien, c'est un bon président, donc tout va bien, il ne faut pas s'y opposer", a déclaré sur Public Sénat le PDG du groupe Dassault, à qui la Libye a commandé la veille 14 avions Rafale. "May she mind her own business: Sarkozy leads France, he ensures we sell products abroad an that's very good, he is a good president, therefore all is well, there is no call for opposition", declared the CEO of Dassault Group, to whom Lybia ordered 14 Rafale planes the day before, on Public Sénat.

well, she's secretary of State for Human Rights. What could possibly be her "own business" then? And we see what is meant by "good president" -even though most sales attributed to Sarkozy were agreed long before May in any case, of course- : making sure that money trumps everything

"Il faut savoir si on veut développer l'emploi en France ou si on veut faire la morale à tout le monde. Si on fait la morale à tout le monde, on ne vend rien", a poursuivi le sénateur UMP de l'Essonne, ajoutant que Mme Yade devrait "s'occupe(r) des petits pays où il y a des problèmes, mais pas des problèmes industriels". "We should decide if we want to develop employment in France or if we want to give lessons to everyone. If we give lessons to everyone, we don't sell anything", continued the UMP Essone senator, addind that Mrs Yade should "take care of small countries where there are problems, but not of industrial problems".

so now it's clear: Human Rights only apply to tiny country whose GDP is inferior to the cost of a combat plane. The secretary of State for Human Rights -OK, I personally never thought it was anything but photo-op, but as a UMP senator he's supposed to at least pretend- should not ever get involved in anything but tiny countries. And certainly not France, for instance.

"Il ne faut quand même pas exagérer et faire la polémique", a-t-il lancé. "You really should not exaggerate and create polemics.", he launched.

Words fail me.

Exaggerate indeed. Worrying about what Human Rights may mean for Ghadafi, now THAT's nitpicking. I mean, when you're head of a big state and want to rule as a real democrat, you can't control everything so maybe some tiny things might have happened without his being aware, surely you won't hold that against him will you?

How patronising towards a secretary of State from the same political party, too.

And we know the rule: in every matter (and I mean EVERY matter), let businessmen do their stuff and shut up. Well, we knew all along, but that's not exactly kept quiet there.

He then goes on to say that selling weapons to pretty much anyone is a good way to reduce unemployment and praises Sarkozy, compared to Chirac with a "between you and me, with Chirac, we didn't sell anything".

I don't like Chirac, but remarks like these will always help me remember how much better it was then than it is now.

Yuk

Display:
Note: I know Ghadafi hasn't actually bought the Rafale (yet?), but that's what the press report was saying. Inaccurately, yes, but since that's a quote...

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi
by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 08:51:01 AM EST
Cyrille:
OK, I'll post as a diary. Still learning the ropes here ;-)
Or maybe I thought that in a diary, it would be more visible that I don't know how to create a nice two parts board with the quote on one side an the translation on the other ;-)
Copy the tiny, unreadable text that follows:
<table cellpadding="5" style="border-collapse:collapse; font-size: 100%;"> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(153, 32, 32); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 224); color: rgb(153, 32, 32);" width="49%"> <b>AP:</b> <a href="http://fr.news.yahoo.com/ap/20071211/tfr-france-libye-kadhafi-dassault-56633fe_1.html"> <b>Kadhafi: Dassault invite Yade à "s'occuper de ses affaires"</b> </a> </td> <td width="2%"> </td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(10, 111, 10); background-color: rgb(234, 255, 234); color: rgb(10, 111, 10);" width="49%"> <b>AP:</b> <a href="http://fr.news.yahoo.com/ap/20071211/tfr-france-libye-kadhafi-dassault-56633fe_1.html"> <b>Ghadafi: Dassault invites Yade to "mind her own business"</b> </a> </td> </tr> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(153, 32, 32); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 224); color: rgb(153, 32, 32);" width="49%">PARIS - Serge Dassault a estimé mardi qu'il "fallait savoir ce que l'on veut" après la polémique concernant la venue du colonel Moammar Kadhafi en visite officielle en France et conseillé à la secrétaire d'Etat aux Droits de l'Homme Rama Yade -qui s'était publiquement émue de la venue du chef d'Etat libyen- de "s'occuper de ses affaires".</td> <td width="2%"> </td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(10, 111, 10); background-color: rgb(234, 255, 234); color: rgb(10, 111, 10);" width="49%">PARIS - Serge Dassault reckoned on tuesday that "we must decide what we want" after the polemic around the visit in France of colonel Muhammar Ghadafi and advised secretary of State for Human Rights Rama Yade, who expressed her reservations against the visit of the Lybian head of State, to "mind her own business".</td> </tr> </table> <p>Wow.<p> <table cellpadding="5" style="border-collapse:collapse; font-size: 100%;"> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(153, 32, 32); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 224); color: rgb(153, 32, 32);" width="49%"> "Qu'elle s'occupe de ses affaires: Sarkozy dirige la France, il fait vendre des produits à l'étranger et c'est très bien, c'est un bon président, donc tout va bien, il ne faut pas s'y opposer", a déclaré sur Public Sénat le PDG du groupe Dassault, à qui la Libye a commandé la veille 14 avions Rafale.</td> <td width="2%"> </td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(10, 111, 10); background-color: rgb(234, 255, 234); color: rgb(10, 111, 10);" width="49%">"May she mind her own business: Sarkozy leads France, he ensures we sell products abroad an that's very good, he is a good president, therefore all is well, there is no call for opposition", declared the CEO of Dassault Group, to whom Lybia ordered 14 Rafale planes the day before, on Public Sénat.</td> </tr> </table> <p>well, she's secretary of State for Human Rights. What could possibly be her "own business" then? And we see what is meant by "good president" -even though most sales attributed to Sarkozy were agreed long before May in any case, of course- : making sure that money trumps everything<p> <table cellpadding="5" style="border-collapse:collapse; font-size: 100%;"> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(153, 32, 32); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 224); color: rgb(153, 32, 32);" width="49%"> "Il faut savoir si on veut développer l'emploi en France ou si on veut faire la morale à tout le monde. Si on fait la morale à tout le monde, on ne vend rien", a poursuivi le sénateur UMP de l'Essonne, ajoutant que Mme Yade devrait "s'occupe(r) des petits pays où il y a des problèmes, mais pas des problèmes industriels".</td> <td width="2%"> </td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(10, 111, 10); background-color: rgb(234, 255, 234); color: rgb(10, 111, 10);" width="49%">"We should decide if we want to develop employment in France or if we want to give lessons to everyone. If we give lessons to everyone, we don't sell anything", continued the UMP Essone senator, addind that Mrs Yade should "take care of small countries where there are problems, but not of industrial problems".</td> </tr> </table> <p>so now it's clear: Human Rights only apply to tiny country whose GDP is inferior to the cost of a combat plane. The secretary of State for Human Rights -OK, I personally never thought it was anything but photo-op, but as a UMP senator he's supposed to at least pretend- should not ever get involved in anything but tiny countries. And certainly not France, for instance.<p> <table cellpadding="5" style="border-collapse:collapse; font-size: 100%;"> <tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(153, 32, 32); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 224); color: rgb(153, 32, 32);" width="49%"> "Il ne faut quand même pas exagérer et faire la polémique", a-t-il lancé.</td> <td width="2%"> </td> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(10, 111, 10); background-color: rgb(234, 255, 234); color: rgb(10, 111, 10);" width="49%">"You really should not exaggerate and create polemics.", he launched.</td> </tr> </table> <p> Words fail me.<br> <br> Exaggerate indeed. Worrying about what Human Rights may mean for Ghadafi, now THAT's nitpicking. I mean, when you're head of a big state and want to rule as a real democrat, you can't control everything so maybe some tiny things might have happened without his being aware, surely you won't hold that against him will you?<p> How patronising towards a secretary of State from the same political party, too.<p> And we know the rule: in every matter (and I mean EVERY matter), let businessmen do their stuff and shut up. Well, we knew all along, but that's not exactly kept quiet there.<p> He then goes on to say that selling weapons to pretty much anyone is a good way to reduce unemployment and praises Sarkozy, compared to Chirac with a "between you and me, with Chirac, we didn't sell anything".<p> I don't like Chirac, but remarks like these will always help me remember how much better it was then than it is now.<p> Yuk
by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 11:37:10 AM EST
Yuk

Indeed.

Follow the link to the New User Guide, inside the box at the top right corner of every page.

You're clearly a dangerous pinko commie pragmatist.

by Vagulus on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 02:24:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Very big yuk, indeed Cyrille. Dassault is of course an heir-to-a-fortune UMP senator and owner of the main rightwing newspaper in the country, and he is an insulting slob.

Meanwhile the Omnipresident said in a speech on Sunday that he had garnered in ten billion euros and the blokes in the factories knew what that meant to them. Except:

  1. it's not as much money as that, as the Elysée is now admitting (some is old contracts, some will await confirmation, like slob Dassault's fighters), and there's  the confirmed sum of 300 million euros (!) going round;

  2. Sarko looks really silly now, since Kadhafi is rubbing his nose in it by saying there has been no discussion of human rights at all. And he's here for several days, what fun!

I think it's more than time for Rama Yade to resign. Useless to expect Bernard Kouchner to do so.
by afew (afew(a in a circle)eurotrib_dot_com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 03:28:30 PM EST
Even if it were so much money (it isn't), it would not be a valid justification.
Yes, the blokes in the factories may like it.

But let's suppose I had children (fingers crossed ;-) ), they may think it means a lot to them that dad has started selling drugs and now they get a lot of toys and fancy holidays. Do you think the judge will say "oh, that's alright then"?

I am ready to enter into a discussion on whether it is acceptable or not to invite him, and will admit that there are arguments in favour of it, however repugnant it may be. But to dismiss the objections on the grounds that Lybia buys stuff is a non starter.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 04:18:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Your argument has four weaknesses (says the guy from the no.1 per capita arms exporting nation...).

First, if you don't sell, someone else will. (We always say, "if we don't sell, the French and Russians will")

Secondly, there is a fundamental difference between selling drugs and arms. Drugs are criminal to sell. Arms deals are by definition a matter of international relations, and as the international system is anarchic, arm sales cannot, by definition, be illegal. Except if the arms are sold to a nation under a weapons embargo which is supported by all great powers.

Third, every nation has a right to buy arms for self defence. The alternative is that every nation has a reasonably big and diversified domestic arms industry.

Fourth, how are you supposed to opress anyones human rights with a fighter bomber? If the French were selling machetes, tear gas or torture manuals, there might be reasons for worry and complaint.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 04:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I didn't say that selling drugs was akin to selling weapons. Nor are the complaints mostly due to the fact that France is selling weapons.

I just used an example to refute the "just shut up and mind your own business because the people in the factories will be getting some work" argument.

That Lybia may be bringing money to France is not an argument to decide whether or not Gadhafi's presence is acceptable on Human Rights grounds. That was my point.

As for your arguments, 2 to 4 are fully valid. 1 is not. Similarly, if I don't sell drugs, someone will. But I don't, even though someone will.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 05:17:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Fourth, how are you supposed to opress anyones human rights with a fighter bomber? If the French were selling machetes, tear gas or torture manuals, there might be reasons for worry and complaint.

What makes you think we don't ?

What do you think the hundreds of French soldiers who had participated in the Algerian war were "teaching" to the various new armies in Africa for a few decades ?

Un roi sans divertissement est un homme plein de misères

by linca (antonin POINT lucas AROBASE gmail.com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 11:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
Secondly, there is a fundamental difference between selling drugs and arms. Drugs are criminal to sell.

Damn right there is a fundamental difference between arms and drugs! Arms are made to kill people. Drugs make you high, and provide a certain amount of fun and entertainment. The fact that the former is legal and the latter illegal speaks more to the failures of this world than give a basis for judgment of persons and actions. For me, it is quite clear which of the two goods is morally repugnant.

As they said in the good old days: drop acid, not bombs!

by someone (s0me1smail(a)gmail(d)com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2007 at 02:02:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Yes, thank you. There is no way selling weapons is more ethical or moral than selling pot (unsubstantiated accusations of "narcoterrorism" aside). Not that I personally utilise either.

As for this:

Fourth, how are you supposed to opress anyones human rights with a fighter bomber?

Being alive isn't a human right?

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Thu Dec 13th, 2007 at 02:58:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Defending yourself is the most fundamental right there is.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Dec 13th, 2007 at 06:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Starvid:
Fourth, how are you supposed to opress anyones human rights with a fighter bomber? If the French were selling machetes, tear gas or torture manuals, there might be reasons for worry and complaint.

Will this do as an example?

Chapter : Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem

Falsehood #4: Israeli Intelligence is able to pin-point so-called "terrorist bases" as targets for air strikes.

The truth: The communiques of the Israeli Air Force itself mostly claim that air strikes were against merely "suspected" terrorist sites. This is as absurd as bombing a town or village because someone who may have committed an act of violence might be living somewhere in the town or village.

Falsehood # 5: Israeli air strikes are only "retaliatory" actions because of terrorist acts.

The truth: Most Israeli air strikes have been unrelated to armed action by Palestinians, but have been designed solely to "make life unbearable" for the Palestinian civilian population. In cases where air strikes followed an armed Palestinian action, the Israeli Air Force's targets were civilian population centers with no relationship to the men involved in the action for which the "retaliation" allegedly took place.



Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Dec 18th, 2007 at 06:00:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]
And how is that relevant for France selling Rafales to Libya? You still can't oppress people with fighter bombers. They are war machines. Israel is fighting a low intensity war against the palestinians.

Now, let's say the Israelis wanted to buy Rafales. Should France deny it? Nope. If they don't the Israelis will buy American instead (which they do anyway, but still).

Results are the only thing that matter. Of course, France could turn not selling Rafales to Israel into a big political issue, shaming Israel. Then it would be a relevant thing to do.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 03:24:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are you seriously trying to claim that a weapon you can threaten to kill people with  cannot be a tool of opression?

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.
by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 06:06:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you want to opress people you don't do it with a Rafale. You use those for killing people in sophisticated ways.

If you want opression, sticks and guns are far more efficient.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 12:45:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]
What's that called in your planet?

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.
by metavision on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 11:13:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]
War.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
by Starvid on Thu Dec 20th, 2007 at 07:15:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Of course, it could all be a trick. Not only is Sarkozy coopting the leftist politicians, he is also coopting the leftist criticism of his government!

In this way, the left is even more marginalised.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 04:19:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Why should she resign? If it was me, I'd be as much of a pain in the ass as is humanly possible until Monsieur le président would either start pay a modicum of attention to what I have to say or have me forced out of the job in a very public manner.

"The basis of optimism is sheer terror" - Oscar Wilde
by NordicStorm (m<-at->sturmbaum.net) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 04:23:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]
At least this is creating a major shitstorm for Sarkozy, with many voices on the right strongly critical.

The cartoonists are having a field day:

Don't pay attention: it's a quaint local custom: we say a few words about human rights and then we move on.

let me introduce my secretary of state for human rights. Go ahead, tell him what you want. I've checked, the guy doesn't understand a word of French

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes

by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 06:01:34 PM EST
  • Gaddafi snorts cocaine
  • the general impression is that he played Sarkozy for a fool (senior ministers say privately that this is the first time where it was obvious that Sarkozy was not in absolute control of things)
  • in particular, Gaddafi openly humiliated Sarkozy on the topic of human rights
  • on armaments deal, the only one that apeears to have a good chance of happening is the Rafale plane one (because Gaddafi loves the toy) - but that is dependent on US approval as some on board electronics are of US origin (I must say I'm a bit shocked to learn that)

And their headline: "Sarkozy : from Libya to Libido"

In the long run, we're all dead. John Maynard Keynes
by Jerome a Paris (etg@eurotrib.com) on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 03:53:27 AM EST
Thales (formerly Thomson CSF) manufactures all the electronics in french fabs, in military-grade fabrication processes. But the CPU design of the flight computer was licensed from a commodity Motorola chip (now Freescale) and ported to the mil-spec process. For the geeks, the design in question was the MC 68020 in the prototypes and first of the series, and it will probably be the PowerPC 603 (Thales has licensed it several years ago) from the first upgrade on, which is already budgeted.

So there is not actually US hardware, but US intellectual property in the Rafale. Using a commodity CPU makes sense economically (it saves a very costly design, plus leveraging a huge base of compiler & debugger software). Of course, Lybia can get faster CPUs without export controls in any Taiwan supermarket, but that would be civilian grade fabrication.

User feedback: in 1994, the Macintosh LC was proven to have superior reliability onboard submarines, than the Thomson-Sintra sonar console (which needed a new hard drive every week...)

Pierre

by Pierre on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 04:26:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]
We are all reliant on US components...

Back in the bad days, in 1978, the Americans blocked an export of Viggens to India in by refusing to issue an export license for the RM8/JT8D engine, forcing India to choose the SEPECAT Jaguar instead. This meant that we never ever got any export orders for the plane, and the 329 machines were only operated by the Swedish Air Force.

On the other hand, the Americans had helped us out a lot with designing Viggen. Doing it on our own would have taken far more time and greater expense.

Sadly, they have all been phased out. Having 300 Viggens to complement our 200 Gripens would have been very nice. But dead expensive.

Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.

by Starvid on Wed Dec 19th, 2007 at 01:01:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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