Welcome to European Tribune. It's gone a bit quiet around here these days, but it's still going.

Making Sustainability Simple

by nanne Mon Dec 10th, 2007 at 06:58:12 PM EST

Between all the talk we have here about the cliff we're driving towards at increasing speed due to the unsustainability of the economic and technological systems we live and participate in, I'm afraid we're losing sight of just how managable the issue really is.

As the light green PR thinkers Nordhaus and Schellenberger have rightly pointed out many times, bombarding people with a plethora of dangers which they should worry about does not lead to a positive, liberal response. Instead, it fuels conservative sentiments.

At the same time, Schellenberger and Nordhaus seem to have internalised a right-wing narrative about the American way of life which if you think about it comes down pretty much to 'the eternal yankee'. The eternal yankee is a consumer and proud of it. The extent of his freedom is defined by the quantity of his material possessions. Global warming politics, according to Schellenberger and Nordhaus, needs to be fitted around this perspective of the eternal yankee. This means it cannot affect material consumption. ((comments Diary Rescue by Migeru))


This diary is not just about Schellenberger and Nordhaus. It's not just about the insufficiencies of Al Gore's 'An Inconvenient Truth'. Yet, if I manage, it won't quite be about the universe and everything either.

The politics are improving...

First, some good news by John Quiggin, ctsy of Yglesias:

Political events in Australia have been moving so fast, no one has really caught up. A week ago, Labor looked very likely to win the election (held last Saturday) and there seemed a good chance that Liberal (= pro-business right) Prime Minister John Howard would lose his own seat. Those things duly happened, and that seemed to be about as much as we could expect or hope for. Instead, there has been a meltdown of spectacular proportions on the losing side.

[...]

That left the Liberals with a choice between two ambitious, but largely ideology-free, political adventurers, Brendan Nelson and Malcolm Turnbull.

Turnbull, much the more able of the two, offered a complete repudiation of the culture-war policies of the Howard era, proposing ratification of the Kyoto protocol, an apology to indigenous Australians, support for repeal of the anti-union Workchoices package.


The USA is even more isolated politically on climate change than ever before. If only Canada could get its act together, the isolation would be absolute. The more relevant part of the Australian elections is the response of the opposition to their clubbering. Right now it looks like the GOP will also be clubbered (again) in 2008. With Chafee gone and Hagel bowing out at the next elections, I don't really know if there will be any Republicans left in the Senate that are not complete ideologues, though. Still, the political movement is going in a positive direction on the issue of climate change.

... but the problem is bigger

At the same time, however, we are risking carbon blindness. That is, focusing only on climate change without thinking about the underlying issue of sustainability. Schellenberger and Nordhaus are guilty of this. But Al Gore also contributes to it, as do studies such as those by McKinsey and Vattenfall. This is not meant to deny that these are useful, but they look at the matter from a perspective that aims to find the cheapest way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. A side-effect from arguing in such terms is that interventions like geoengineering quickly become more reasonable propositions.

The more important part is that we ignore other major problems we have such as depletion of non-renewable resources, and degradation of carrying capacity for renewable resources. Depletion of non-renewable resources has a single cause: use. Degradation of carrying capacity for renewable reources is caused by overuse, simple destruction (land use changes), and by the effects of pollution.

Greenhouse gases are not an exceptional form of pollution, and the global warming crisis is not necessarily bigger than the crises of biodiversity, soil degradation, or peak resources. One argument of Schellenberger and Nordhaus is that greenhouse gases are qualitatively different from other forms of pollution and thereby can't be solved by a single 'policy fix' the way other forms of pollution could be in the past. This gets the problem the wrong way around. It is not the problem that is now different, it is the narrow-minded solution of a single 'policy fix' for each specific form of pollution that has always been wrong.

Integrating the various kinds of environmental effects humans have on the planet is the purpose of the 'global footprint' measure. As the Global Footprint Network reckons we use about 1.3 times the productivity of the earth at present, we get to the concept of a global ecological overshoot.

You can doubt the accuracy of the global footprint measure, but the idea that we are in overshoot is backed up by observation of a variety of current developments, such as collapsing fish stocks, declining biodiversity and peak resources.

In addition to the current overshoot, the world population is expected to rise, and the development trajectory taken by most of what we call the developing  world is towards mass production and consumption as well.

There still is a simple solution...

If that sounds like an insurmountable problem, it isn't. You see, most of our current energy and efforts are not spent on producing stuff. They are spent on producing waste. Alex Steffen put this beautifully in his takedown of Schellenberger and Nordhaus.

Making more things does not need to mean using more energy. Throughput and outcome are different things. The amount of material and energy that go into a given product or service (the throughput) do not predict how useful it is (the outcome): a car made with five times as much metal as another car is not necessarily five times as enjoyable, while a computer which uses a tenth as much energy as another computer may offer comparable or better performance more cheaply (especially if cost over time is considered).

Because the major product of our industrial systems is waste -- waste in vast, staggering, difficult to imagine amounts -- we can improve the performance of nearly every product in our society while dramatically slashing its energy and material usage. This is true now, with existing technologies and emerging design approaches, and it's true even before we start to think about closing the loop at the end of those products' lifecycles through concepts like zero waste planning and producer responsibility.


If we make our product cycles completely green, in line with the cradle to cradle approach, who knows how much we will save in terms of resource extraction. Maybe we'll use four to five times less? If the ecological footprint were an accurate measure, we only need to reduce our impact by roughly 23%. Even if we take a much more conservative estimate, we can still allow for a significant amount of growth.

... but what about energy use? Entropy? A steady state economy?

The idea that we can solve the issue of environmental sustainability merely through technological interventions in the production - consumption process will seem dissatisfactory to many greens. However, it's true! For the time being. Eventually, however, economic growth will catch up again with any improvements we make; we will need more energy to maintain the cycle and more resources to expand it than the earth can support.

At the same time as we close the cycle, however, we might also slow it down by making goods more durable. McDonough and Braungart, who thought up cradle to cradle, want to make you happy about wasting. Waste = food. But this is only part of the picture. We've gotten used to treating many products as disposable without any reason. Clothing is a good example of this. Once you're grown up, you can wear your clothes for decades. Instead, regular western people now buy clothes for a season. They're cheap enough for that, and often the quality does not allow for much more.

With a focus of quality over quantity and refinement over variation in style, we can have the same level of material wealth at a much lower level of industrial production. This is in part a mental change. But eco-efficient washing machines that don't damage clothes are also part of the picture.

(I know some here like the idea of washing by hand, but I don't think it's going to catch on big again if we can avoid it)

The final mental change that we need is a realisation that 'the good life' is not defined by the amount of goods we own. The positional status goods have needs to be replaced by something else. It would be nice not to have the need for positional distinction, however, that might be difficult for the group animals that we are?

I see a growing reception of the idea that material wealth does not pay off past the level that the USA and some West-European countries achieved between the late 1950s and the early 1970s. Of course, some people have been saying this for a long time, but until recently it was easy for the powerful to dismiss them as dirty fucking hippies. There now is an increasing body of 'hard' science to back this idea up and the 'new' mindset is being recognised at official levels, at least in the European Union. We should support that development.

Display:
of the environmental movement. It captures the whole complex, as you point out.

Of course, appropriate "footprint" and "sustainable levels" are subject to study and debate, but the context has to be understood. As you imply, to divide the question in to so many toluene-contaminated soil sites and so much CO2 from coal-fired electrical-generation plants is to prevent a comprehensive approach. Until we have a broadly-defined movement, we will be arguing priorities and splitting resources, ad infinitum. Sustainability is the question and, ultimately, the answer.

My only criticism/addition - let's not forget equitable distribution of material wealth. The current "system" will prevail, until we all have equal share and equal risk.


paul spencer

by paul spencer (paulgspencer@gmail.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 04:41:31 PM EST
The term sustainability has been misused, even by those who realize there is a problem. That's how we end up with oxymoronic phrases such as "sustainable development" or "sustainable growth".

The goal has to be sustainability. That is living within the carrying capacity of the earth. Either mankind can do this in an organized way or mother nature will do it for us.

To get to this point we will have to consume less in the absolute than we do presently. This means all of the following: scaling down consumption in the developed states, increasing use of recycling, improved efficiency, technological innovation and population decrease. At the same time equity demands that those at the bottom have their standard of living increased.

None of this is on anyone's agenda. All we get is some modest efforts on improving efficiency. This only postpones the day of reckoning.

Unless some far sighted leaders emerge we can expect to see things get worse. If Katrina wasn't a wake up call, what will be?

Policies not Politics
---- Daily Landscape

by rdf (robert.feinman@gmail.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 06:51:45 PM EST
THE IDEA OF A GLOBAL FOOTPRINT IS A BIT MIND BLOWING FOR MOST PEOPLE.  It seems like a zero sum game whereby unsustainability = global capacity - population X (consumption + waste).  But all of these things are variable, including global capacity, which is actually being reduced by global warming and the spread of desertification.

Greater equality might even make things worse, because whilst people might just accept the poor being equalised up, they will not accept being equalised with the poor!  Thus the greater the degree of equalisation the greater the increase in consumption and waste.  Thus the rise of China and India help to equalise what were previously very poor countries, but the net effect is to overstep the global footprint even more.

Thus if we assume that it will be very difficult (short of huge devastations by war or famine) to reduce the average per capita level of consumption in the world, there are only two other variables to play with:  

  1. Improved efficiency/reduced waste
  2. Voluntary population reduction

However for so long as Nations/religions compete against each other on the basis of power/numbers/wealth etc. voluntary population reduction policies will be very difficult to implement.

That leaves us with improved efficiency/technology/waste reduction.  Simple economics will enforce this in any case, as energy/commodity prices rise, but nobody seriously believes this will be sufficient in itself as the population rises still further.

Thus Kyoto is only the very beginning.  Next will be Treaties setting population growth limits.  The only alternative is war, and lots of it, as the powerful seek to maintain their control of increasing scarce resources.  I'm glad I'm living now and not in 100 years time.


Index of Frank's Diaries

by Frank Schnittger (mail Frankschnittger at hot male dotty communists) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 08:51:02 PM EST
I'm glad I'm living now and not in 100 years time.

That's part of the difference, perhaps. I expect still to be living at least 74 years from now, and maybe well beyond that.

Setting population limits is not necessary. As soon as women have the opportunity of birth control, they will use it (statistically). All you need to do is give them opportunity.

As you say, the global footprint has many conditions that are not fixed. We can also improve carrying capacity (see: Terra preta)

Now you have defined three variables (pollution is a fourth, but let's leave that out). The outcome you'd derive from these variables depends upon their relative size. Now we know the population variable to a fairly high degree and population looks set to peak at 8 billion around mid-century. Possibly less if Clinton/Obama/Edwards/whoever will undo the Bush line of not supporting birth control as a part of development aid.

So the population increase is not that big, relatively speaking. Economic growth also does not need to be big in material terms to give everyone an acceptable level of wealth. Some say we already have enough.

On the other hand, we have a huge level of waste. If we turn this waste into food - go full cycle - we'll have (temporarily) solved most problems.

Part of the mind-blowing-ness of the global footprint idea at first encounter might be that it is an aggregate measure. At the global level we have to look at the disaggregated picture. What holds for one resource may hold to a different degree for another resource, etc.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 09:32:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]
I think part of the problem is that as of right now, there's no clear statement of exactly what sort of actions are needed.

For example, "As soon as women have the opportunity of birth control, they will use it (statistically)." This is true, but what is not so clear is how many babies a woman should have in order to do her part in supporting sustainability. I suspect that most people in Western countries think that they should have two babies, because that is the "replacement rate." But that doesn't take into consideration the need for the West to significantly REDUCE its footprint.

Maybe the average should be only 0.2 babies per woman in the West? Maybe in South Asia it should be 1? Maybe in Africa it should be 0.4? Who knows? Who decides? And who is going to successfully sell such low numbers to eager mothers?

There is a fundamental conflict between telling the truth and getting people so scared that they don't do anything, versus softening the bad story in an attempt to make political progress. I'm not sure which one is worse...

by asdf on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 09:34:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]
If you'd want to make a regional model of reduction requirements for a global footprint, the 'contraction and convergence' idea taken from the discussion over greenhouse gases could be applied.

The global footprint measure expresses the impact individuals have on a global level. I don't know if we should instead move towards a measure of the impact nations or regions have on the global level. I rather think we should move towards a similar per capita footprint than to say that in a sparsely populated country or region, people can of course have a bigger footprint.

Generally I don't know if we should expand the politics of setting top-down reduction targets for countries or regions to this area. Setting deadlines causes people to shift their efforts towards the future (due to the 'discount rate' or 'rate of time preference'). There is evidence that this also goes for politicians. Like Schellenberger & Nordhaus I would prefer to see a 'breakthrough', though my conception is different from theirs.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 10:30:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]
"The global footprint measure expresses the impact individuals have on a global level."

A question is whether the "fair" way to allocate resource utilization is on a per capita basis. For example, someone living in a warm, mild climate might not have to heat or cool their house in any season, while someone in a Northern European climate might have to heat their house in winter simply to survive.

In that case, the European is going to be a significantly larger user of resources. Does this mean that Sweden, for example, should be depopulated in favor of India?

by asdf on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 10:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]
It already is!

More importantly, homes should be warmed with green energy. Sweden gets its energy largely from hydro and nuclear and is moving towards expanding wind. Biomass should be an easy option for Sweden to add on. I'd guess that transportation uses more resources in Sweden than energy does.

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 6th, 2007 at 04:30:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think that's true for a fair few countries. For instance, the UK's new wind proposals, if they go through, would power all homes by 2020. Add biomass, nuclear, tidal and wave to that and you've got enough power for business too, plus some hydrogen buses/electric trains.

The transport issue isn't going away. I think with current and near-current technology many countries could change their electricity supply to be more efficient and mostly renewables. When you start talking about the car, however, there's very little you can do to keep it the same level it is today. You can make electricity sustainable, with some work. Making personal (rather than public) transport sustainable is going to prove impossible, I fear. They should instead be thinking of ways to localise jobs, have more telecommuting and more public transportation in anticipation of the problems this will cause.

by darrkespur on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 07:44:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]
one thing we know is that forcing women to have unwanted babies is insane.  not all mothers are "eager", as the steady rate of abortion-seeking regardless of legal strictures demonstrates;  whether abortion is legal or not, safe or not, the percentage of unwilling mothers seeking it does not vary greatly -- the only notable difference between regions where it is legal and those where it is forbidden seems to be in how many women die annually from incompetent abortion procedures.  

now, a Swiftian analysis would suggest that killing women is a far better method of population control than mere contraception or abortion, since killing a woman removes from possibility all the children she might eventually have;  and I do have to wonder sometimes whether the deeply troubling global rates of femicide and selective abortion of female fetuses (particularly in Asia) are any kind of unconscious popular response to overcrowding, hunger, and insecurity.

which leads me off in another direction:  there is much debate over possible outcomes of large populations skewed strongly to a dearth of females:  
here a recent book on the topic is reviewed,
here a western blogger scoffs at concerns over the projected imbalance,,
and here an important fact is noted, too often overlooked, that in natural disasters (as in war in occupied civilian areas), the majority of the victims are women:  According to the report of the international aid group Oxfam, the tsunami has created a severe gender imbalance in the devastated regions. The report suggested that it killed four women for every man, which means that in some villages "up to 80% of those killed were women." According to the Sunday Times, in the Acehnese village of Kuala Cangkoy, for instance, around 117 of the 146 victims were women.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 02:58:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]
Have you ever read any Amin Maalouf?  Mostly historical fiction, but one book, The First Century After Beatrice, is speculative and envisions a world in which the global gender balance has (by choice) skewed male, with catastrophic results.  It struck me as quite well-thought-through.
by the stormy present (stormypresent aaaaaaat gmail etc) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 04:26:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]
"most of our current energy and efforts are not spent on producing stuff. They are spent on producing waste"

they are spent on producing profit also:  accumulation and control.  a lot of money, energy, and effort is spent on methods and technologies of denial and control.  secrecy/enclosure is inefficient and expensive...

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Tue Dec 4th, 2007 at 09:13:55 PM EST
recommend this imho lovely review by Wirzba engaging respectfully but firmly with what I also felt to be a major flaw in Jacobs' Dark Age Ahead...  so glad he wrote this.

"postagrarian" indeed... harumph.

The difference between theory and practise in practise ...

by DeAnander (de_at_daclarke_dot_org) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 01:59:16 AM EST
The technical issues aside, your main point is a strong one: sustainability is a key concept. At the same time, the concentration on greenhouse gases by Gore and others is having an effect: the U.S. public for instance is much more aware of the problem this election year than it was in 2004. At the same time, dealing with the effects of climate change has not been a liberal issue, although I believe it is getting to be a conservative one.

 But sustainability is a survival strategy, and should appeal to both sides.  I've always contended that the issue of "waste not" cuts across political and generational lines.  I've seen it work in individual states where recycling (whatever its technical problems)succeeded with the public, though the experts said that in a throwaway society, people wouldn't support it.    

"The end of all intelligent analysis is to clear the way for synthesis." H.G. Wells "It's not dark yet, but it's getting there." Bob Dylan

by Captain Future (captainfuture is at sbcglobal dot net) on Wed Dec 5th, 2007 at 05:39:17 PM EST
It seems to me Sustainability is locked to the high prestige of the rentier and a corresponding (?) low prestige of the producer.  Why this has come about is a bit of a puzzler, for me, since a lifetime of being a useless git seems tedious, dull, and boring.  

This was brought home by a viewing of Gosford Park's depiction of a swarm of servants beavering away to enable 16, or so, upper class twits to live their vacuous "lifestyle."   I found the shooting scene particularly appalling.  Beaters driving the game, re-loaders, dogs fetching the downed birds, twits standing in one place and pulling the triggers as fast as they could.  The whole thing made my fists itch and long for the evolution of wing mounted, pheasant deployed, Air-to-Ground Anti-Bozo missiles.

What made the whole thing possible was a fortune made supplying the British Army with the "tools of the trade" during World War One.  Altman, with his usual wit, showed this war profiteer as the only one of the twits who did anything.  The rest of the upper-class mob could have been strangled at birth with no loss to anybody of anything.  

In an Over-the-Top kind of way, this is the situation most of us in the First World find ourselves in.  Our lifestyle depends (1) the cheap production of oil, (2) the cheap products cheap oil creates and (3) on cheap money being provided to Money Market Banks to provide cheap credit to purchase the cheap products.  Both the war profiteers profits and oil-in-the-ground are non-renewable, finite resources.  As both run out the lifestyles become harder to maintain until they become impossible to maintain.  

The psychological addiction to the lifestyle does not run out, however.  In the film people go to absurd lengths to create the illusion they are living the lifestyle and are desperate to hide the truth from other people who are also creating the illusion they live the lifestyle while hiding the truth.  

One can continue the analysis by the way the producing class (the servants) re-create the social hierarchy 'downstairs' with greater rigidity and pickle-sniffing while they know their world, as the world upstairs, is a dream.  They even have a discussion around the dining table, IIRC, about how the time of the Great House is ending.  Yet they spend their time doing (essentially) useless tasks for (evidently) illusionary purposes.

For my money this is the great problem to be solved:  How to make productive work prestigious, desired, worthy.  Once that is done moving to sustainability is a matter of technique, doing this way rather than that way kind of discussion.

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre

by ATinNM on Mon Dec 10th, 2007 at 09:09:49 PM EST
"Our lifestyle depends (1) the cheap production of oil, (2) the cheap products cheap oil creates..."

I'm not sure this is quite true, because of the availability of massive amounts of coal. The main need for oil is for transportation, and most of this can be replaced by some combination of electric cars and trains, ultimately powered by coal.

This means that the conflict comes down to the imbalance between coal-rich and coal-poor regions, and the side effects of burning so much coal. Ideally, the West should take these into consideration, but to do so would be a big change from how we've done things in the past.

by asdf on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 12:20:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
RBBooks has saved me the trouble of responding in detail.  (Thanks and a tip o' the hat.)

See the Perfect Storm diary and the linked article therein.

Simply put, the US doesn't have the funds to painlessly shift from oil to coal when

  •  the coal can be bought in €s rather than worth-ever-less $s.

  •  the debts of the last 50 years have to paid, rather than rolled-over

  •  consumer consumption moves from credit-based to cash-based

  •  and deal with ever higher oil prices in the chemical, pharmaceutical, and consumer products industries whose factories would need to be redesigned and retooled to handle coal tar rather than crude oil.  

(I'm not a Chemical Engineer, nor much of a Chemist, so I cannot say what the effects of the last will be.  In fact I only mention it in the hope someone or In Wales will comment and eliminate my ignorance.)

She believed in nothing; only her skepticism kept her from being an atheist. -- Jean-Paul Sartre
by ATinNM on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 01:15:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]
How to make productive work prestigious, desired, worthy.  Once that is done moving to sustainability is a matter of technique, doing this way rather than that way kind of discussion.

nail, meet hammer...

either we transcend glamour, or we make sustainability glamorous...

i know, i know...

'The history of public debt is full of irony. It rarely follows our ideas of order and justice.' Thomas Piketty

by melo (melometa4(at)gmail.com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 09:24:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
The idea that most energy use is wasteful and can be easily eliminated is just plain wrong.

MOST energy use goes to feed us, clothe us, and keep us warm.

This diary is just another version of "50 Easy Ways to save the Planet."

Solving these problems will require VAST commitments of time, money, planning, innovation, and just plain hard work.  Anyone who says otherwise clearly does not understand the world they are living in.  I once calculated (in 1986) that going solar in USA would require $100 trillion and fifty YEARS of effort.  Since then, the problems have gotten MUCH worse.

"Remember the I35W bridge--who needs terrorists when there are Republicans"

by techno (reply@elegant-technology.com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 04:58:10 AM EST
It's good to have a challenge.
The idea that most energy use is wasteful and can be easily eliminated is just plain wrong.

Most fossil fuel energy, just in producing electricity, gets wasted. Take a look at this nice graph in Wikipedia.

Of course, you can't have perfect efficiency. 50% is state of the art for a coal-powered plant. What you can do is forbid inefficient new plants and phase out inefficient old plants. For fossil fuels, this means only allowing highly efficient combined heat cooling and power plants that have a capacity to be retrofitted for carbon capture and storage.

According to the EIA, the efficiency of the electrical system in the USA is currently 31.5%. (derived from this .pdf). So 78.5% of inputs get wasted right there, and it's possible to bring that waste back to 50% with current technology.

MOST energy use goes to feed us, clothe us, and keep us warm.

Residential uses 21% of energy according to the EIA (.pdf).

Clothing used about 0.3% of energy (for production) in 2002. Then again, by volume probably around three quarters of clothes are imported now by the US. The food industry used 1.3% of energy (from this .pdf, compared with the last)

Total it up and you have 23% at most (though transportation and retail energy use will still add a bit).

The total for industry (including food and clothing) is 32.5%

Solving these problems will require VAST commitments of time, money, planning, innovation, and just plain hard work.

If you take cradle to cradle, it's about redesigning the entire industrial production and consumption system. I didn't say it was easy, just that it's managable. We can currently live within our means just by reducing the wastefulness of the system, because it is so gigantically wasteful.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 06:42:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]
So 78.5% of inputs get wasted right there

That would be 68.5%, of course.

Most above numbers derived using excel, less fallible than my mind!

by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 08:30:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
nanne:

Of course, you can't have perfect efficiency. 50% is state of the art for a coal-powered plant. What you can do is forbid inefficient new plants and phase out inefficient old plants. For fossil fuels, this means only allowing highly efficient combined heat cooling and power plants that have a capacity to be retrofitted for carbon capture and storage.

According to the EIA, the efficiency of the electrical system in the USA is currently 31.5%. (derived from this .pdf). So 78.5% of inputs get wasted right there, and it's possible to bring that waste back to 50% with current technology.

Are these percentages relative to the maximum thermodynamic efficiency of the processes we're talking about, or does 100% represent the unattainable situation in which all energy is converted to work with no heat loss?

Remember, for heat engines thermodynamic efficiency is 1 - (cold temperature) / (hot temperature) and the "cold temperature" is essentially ambient temperature around 300 Kelvin, which is pretty damn high. If you have a steam engine where the steam is heated to 600 Kelvin (327 celsius) your maximum thermodynamic efficiency is 50%.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 08:41:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]
AECI website - Chouteau Power Plant among most efficient gas-based plants

The Chouteau Power Plant has greater efficiency than a simple-cycle combustion turbine unit because it employs both a steam turbine and a combustion turbine to power the generator.

Chouteau features two heat-recovery steam generators (HRSGs), each measuring about 70 feet by 100 feet, that capture exhaust heat to power a steam turbine. In contrast, hot exhaust from the gas turbine is vented to the atmosphere on a simple-cycle plant.

At Chouteau, exhaust heat enters the HRSG, or boiler, at about 1,085 degrees Fahrenheit and moves through the structure, heating tubes of water to create steam to power the steam turbine, which turns the generator to produce electricity. Afterward, the exhaust is vented from the stack at about 200 degrees.

This heat-recovery system increases the efficiency of the unit to 58 percent, compared with 33 percent efficiency of a simple-cycle plant.

The first cycle of this power plant has a "cold temperature" of 1085F = 1287K, and an efficiency of 33% which suggests a "hot temperature" of at least 1930K (the higher the actual temperature of the boiler the higher the theoretical efficiency, which must exceed the achieved efficiency).

The second cycle receives 67% of the initial energy and has a hot temperature of 1287K and a cold temperature around the boiling point of water (as low as you can get if you use steam), that is, 212F = 400K. The theoretical maximum efficiency would allow it to extract 69% of this 67%, leaving only 21% of the initial energy and for a total efficiency of 79%. So, the achieved 58% efficiency is at most 73% of what is thermodynamically achievable.

Of course, the boiling-point stem that comes out of the power plant could be directed to some industrial use that only requires boiling water, or even to heat homes or heat water for homes, for reduced heat losses.

But the absolute maximum efficiency with an initial hot temperature of nearly 2000K and a final cold temperature of 300K, where the end result is water at room temperature, is about 85%. It's possible that with gas you cannot get any higher than that in any case, and 58% is 68% of that.

It's not about energy, it's about free energy (in fact, the Gibbs Free Energy as the inputs and outputs not only happen at room temperature but also at atmospheric pressure).

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo

by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 10:11:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]
You can do dual cycle on a coal-fired plant if you use gasification (gasification will end up using some of the energy, but that's still worth it). Now if you combine a dual cycle plant with combined cooling - heat- power, you can get very high efficiencies. Wikipedia says that the theoretical efficiency of a C(C)HP plant would be up to 89%.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 11:05:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Are these percentages relative to the maximum thermodynamic efficiency of the processes we're talking about, or does 100% represent the unattainable situation in which all energy is converted to work with no heat loss?

The unattainable situation. Note that much of the heat loss can also be used if you do combined heat and power. Never all, of course.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 11:16:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Recent estimates are that, should everyone consume like the US, you would need 11 planets. So if you manage to get from 68.5% waste to 50% (impossible of course -you WILL need to transport your energy source, then you WILL need to get your electricity to the point of consumption at the right voltage, it can never be zero transport or conversion waste), assuming the same improvement is realised in other fields, you need... 7.5 planets. Better, but nowhere near.

Or take planes. Whatever your efficiency, you can't go below the required energy to counteract gravity. If you do, well, you don't fly, it's that simple.

Cradle to cradle is a very nice aim, and I support it. But it is not manageable as a way to keep consuming the same. We will have to consume less.

Having said that, there is a lot we can do with equal consumption, and there is so much that is uselessly consumed that consuming less should not prove all that painful. Apart from no longer seeing my friends from Australia, my family from Laos... that will prove the hardest.

Earth provides enough to satisfy every man's need, but not every man's greed. Gandhi

by Cyrille (cyrillev domain yahoo.fr) on Tue Dec 11th, 2007 at 09:17:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]
I think nanne's Making Sustainability Simple is not so much a claim that making all our technology sustainable is simple, but that the concept of sustainability needs to be made easier to understand. But it can still be hard or expensive to turn a simple goal into a workable technology.

We have met the enemy, and he is us — Pogo
by Carrie (migeru at eurotrib dot com) on Mon Dec 17th, 2007 at 05:39:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]
Tackling climate change and drastically reducing our use of resources and energy in society are extremely important if we ever want to create a sustainable society.  

At the same time, it's important to stand back and ask ourselves where all these crises fit into the big picture.  Our civilization depends on the Earth's biosphere, which supplies us with the ecosystem services we need to survive.  Environmental sustainability is about building a society that doesn't systematically degrade that support system.  

To do that we need to figure out the specific ways we are degrading the biosphere, and move away from those practices.  If you look at the problems from a bird's eye view, you can see that we are subjecting the biosphere to: 1. increasing concentrations of materials from the Earth's crust (this includes fossil fuels and rare metals such as cadmium and lead) 2. increasing concentrations of man-made substances and 3. direct degradation of the biosphere.  In addition, and maybe most importantly, we are undermining people's ability to meet their own needs, robbing them of basic human dignity and indirectly increasing environmental degradation.

Climate change mitigation and the cradle to cradle concept are important pieces of the puzzle and help us cut down on our contribution to all of these problems.  In concert with these efforts to cut down on energy and resource use, we also need to focus on which materials we use in production, what we produce, and how much we produce.

Most importantly, we need to keep the big picture in mind, and base our decisions on whether they take us in the right direction and give us the flexibility to change course if necessary.

And now I've written a novel.  Hope this is at least food for thought.

by brmo (bpmoore [at] gmail.com) on Wed Dec 12th, 2007 at 05:45:12 PM EST
Welcome to ET! Feel free to write more novels. And have a '4'.
by nanne (zwaerdenmaecker@gmail.com) on Thu Dec 13th, 2007 at 07:13:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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