Introductions.

by Ronald Rutherford Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 02:39:16 PM EST

Now that I have been visiting European Tribune and have enjoyed my time here, I thought I would introduce myself and my friend Loganthor.

We met at Thom Hartmann's Forum. As you can see from my posts and diary I have a strong interest in economics, especially in developing economies and international trade.

Loganthor tends to be more interested in the courts and laws (UET) as well the Israeli/Palestinian/Lebanon/ME conflicts.

While we both tend to be conservative in our views, we will look at many points of view including experimenting with presenting the opposite of our normal views. We also do not like or identify with some of the labels to identify conservatives like Neoconservative, Neoliberalism etc. I tend to be more libertarian but reject isolationism of the USA by all sides of the debate.

We also are willing to study the issue in depth, that we find lacking in Thom's Forum as well as other forums and boards. Honestly I am not sure if this format is best for what I am looking for but may have the most informed and educated as I have seen. On Thoms some threads can get as many as 3783 posts (Abortion) or 1000 posts and run more than a year.

Introductions. | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Introductions. (4.00 / 2)

Hi. Everyone.

Loved Europe when I was there. Hope to get back there soon.

Personal Disclaimer: The information in my weblog is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

by Loganthor on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 02:52:52 PM EST

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

Well hi. You're in the right place for informed and educated, I do the hit and run sarcasm and usually leave the high-fallutin' stuff way alone. I know when I'm out of my depth.

Have fun, just don't get enthusiastic about the FT, Jerome really hates that.

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 04:37:08 PM EST

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

NP, I don't pay much attention to FT. They do have some nice coverage of Venezuela that I run across from time to time.

Which I am surprised that more sources of information is not used on this forum.

On another forum I listed all the places I like to visit, but can no longer find the post.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 04:45:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Venezuala (4.00 / 2)

Ah, you mean this ?

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2007/4/17/13447/1473#14

keep to the Fen Causeway

by Helen (lareinagal at yahoo dot co dot uk) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:03:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Venezuala (none / 0)

Helen you already made me smile. Thanks.
Venezuelanalysis is a rag for Hugo.
I have read enough to know that it is not a serious news outlet IMHO. Just an excuse publisher for Hugo.

But thanks for the heads up on what they think about the FT. I don't see any specific article that I used recently but I mostly have read some about the financial things going on in Venezuela, like the Nationalization, Central Bank policies and the like. Stuff that is pretty hard to lie about. I also get information from a variety of blogs/news outlets that confirm what the FT may be saying.

Unfortunately most of my posts are in the premium sections of Thom's forum.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 05:41:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Venezuala (4.00 / 2)

Even if government sponsored Venezuelanalysis seems to be fact based unlike the FT.

I wrote a few diaries here on ET about MSM disinformation campaign on Venezuela, FT and WaPo are the worst offenders with virtually fact-free articles running for years.

I have no tie with Venezuela, I started looking into it during the coups because after reading a few MSM articles (in France and on the web) it was obvious that what the MSM were reporting at the time could not possibly be true (not even remotely passing common sense check).

If you want to be informed about Venezuela, I suggest starting by this blog:

http://oilwars.blogspot.com/

It is pro-Chavez, but provides documented arguments (links, photocopy of press, TV extracts, etc...), so again it is fact based unlike FT & others.

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:04:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

Hi Helen,

I have noticed people here can put together a mean sentence or forty. I'll will certainly have to step up my vocabulary word of the day calendar to keep up.

I have a 10th level Padawan degree in sarcasm. We will have to do battle someday.

Personal Disclaimer: The information in my weblog is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

by Loganthor on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

Hi and welcome

I am unfortunately not as informed or economically literate as you would probably like, However I do have an Industrial grade Bullshit detector, and a a comercial barrel of sarcasm and Irony.

Bring your best game and expect to have your assumptions questioned thoroughly.

Any idiot can face a crisis - it's day to day living that wears you out.

by ceebs (ceebs (at) eurotrib (dot) com) on Tue Apr 17th, 2007 at 08:32:39 PM EST

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

Ditto. Loganthor and Ronald, welcome.

Having said that, Ronald´s pre-introduction comments were enough for my home-made detector, so it will be fun.

Are you also a conservative, Loganthor?

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:44:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

Hi Metavison,

Are you also a conservative, Loganthor?

I am about as middle of the road as it gets. I think of myself as more libertarian, but Conservative is a nice descriptive umbrella.

I'm also a stereotypical Libra. Logical, Rational and like balance. Some would say I'm a contextual freak. A persons words and action need to be in context for me to understand it. Same goes for current events and history. My favorite example is the US involvement in Iraq. Which I sure will come up repeatedly here.

This is a very fast paced forum, I hope I can keep up.

Personal Disclaimer: The information in my weblog is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

by Loganthor on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

I hope you have a patent on that detector, would hate to have someone steal your intellectual property.

LOL, I think you should have come to that conclusion w/o your detector.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:41:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

Warning: counterfeting is not stealing.

When I steal and eat your apple you don't have it any more. When I copy your text, song, movie you still have it.

Welcome to ET :).

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:26:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

Private use is almost always accepted as OK.
But if you were to make money on my text, song, movie then you have stolen a chance for me to make money and thus my rights.

I assumed that meta had some device or software that allowed him to spot conservatives from a distance. Thus being a valuable device, I was only looking out for his rights.

Any way unlike Robert, you can use my words freely.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 01:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

Funny logic.

Hopefully the USA constitution is saner:

The Congress shall have Power ... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

If those government created "rights" don't create progress, they're unconstitutionnal in the USA.

No question of "making money".

by Laurent GUERBY on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:13:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

Actually your logic is funny IMHO.
No one talked about "unlimited time" (in perpetuity) for the rights. Nice use of straw-man argument.

It was to promote the progress by securing property rights. Nothing says that rights will be bypassed if someone concludes that "Progress" is greater with more limited rights.

I will take it back, you only have 5 days to use my words. LOL.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 02:37:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

In return, ET will give you all the time you need for the endless learning here.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:38:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

Her. I think it's hard-wired.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:34:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

Hi Ceebs,

Bring your best game and expect to have your assumptions questioned thoroughly

I would expect nothing less. I would also be severely disappointed if you didn't.

Personal Disclaimer: The information in my weblog is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

by Loganthor on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 12:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

We also do not like or identify with some of the labels to identify conservatives like Neoconservative, Neoliberalism etc.

Neoconservatism is one specific branch of conservatism. Neoliberalism... not really, it is a special branch of liberalism, though closely tied with branches of libertarianism dominant in present-day USA (shared heroes & inspirators: von Mises, Hayek, Milton Friedman, largely identical views on the economy). Understand neoliberalism as one ideology about how to bring about libertarian paradise.

A warning in advance: the US liberal-conservative, Keynesian-libertarian dimensions don't map the ideological spectrum elsewhere, the frequent use of the to you unfamiliar word neoliberal may not be the only novelty.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 03:43:58 PM EST

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

Thanks, Dodo.
But the use of "Neocons" has now expanded way beyond what it originally meant and thus losing sight of what it stands for. You do realize that it was a name coined by its opponents? There was a guy at Thom's Forum that coined the phrase "Neocon economic policies" (as well as Neocon education policy, etc...). When asked directly about it he could only refer to Milton Friedman. It is not a branch but a philosophy about international relations.

Like when you try to point out the contrasting dichotomy in Keynesian-libertarian, I consider myself followers of both schools of thought.

As far as Neoliberalism, I am still searching for its meaning and it appears to be all encompassing of what "capitalism" use to mean.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 04:22:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

You'll grow to love my expedient use of the terms neocon and neolib, I'm sure.

Your posts are so disciplined and measured. Do you both work as a team? And how did you progress all the way from Thom´s site to ET?

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

I hope you (anyone) does not take offense at when I laugh at things I read.

LOL out loud on your first sentence.

Thank you for your compliments.
As my friend Brent recently said:

Ronald posted: "Hi, Brent. Did you check out ET?"
Christ, Jesus Christ, how can a person inflict calumny upon Ronald Rutherford? (Christ knows I've tried!).
No, sorry, have not yet checked out ET. But thanks for the tip.

Why do you think my posts are "disciplined and measured"? Yes we do sometimes get into the same thread together and have fun.

Well Robert (rdf) is a sometimes poster at Thom's and he challenged us and invited us over several times. So finally I took the challenge. Loganthor still visits Thom's more. Ren also is a regular of Thom's from a long time ago. And he does not talk to me. LMFAO.

Even got banned a couple of times there.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:09:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

"Even got banned a couple of times there."

I just "knew" that, but history doesn´t have to be repeated if it´s learned.

Our knowledge has surpassed our wisdom. -Charu Saxena.

by metavision on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:38:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

Yes, as long no one here tries to tie my opinion to my upbringing. I think it is a little over the line saying you must believe X,Y or Z based on an authoritarian household.
NP.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:59:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (4.00 / 3)

the use of "Neocons" has now expanded way beyond what it originally meant

Yeah, that's right. Some use it for all Bush supporters, for example.

You do realize that it was a name coined by its opponents?

Yes, Harrington, but granpa Kristol & co took it on.

It is not a branch but a philosophy about international relations.

Where is the contradiction? Aren't you reducing political ideology to views on the economy here?

I consider myself followers of both schools of thought

Well, and I neither :-) My point is that in the wider world, there are more schools of thought than these too, and even the ideas of those schools can appear in different constellations.

Neoliberalism, I am still searching for its meaning and it appears to be all encompassing of what "capitalism" use to mean.

That would be a rather narrow view of views of capitalism.

Personally, I would summarize the basic ingredients of neoliberalism thus:

'efficiency' is an absolute (not relative, contextual) economic quality, increasing it is desirable
no state involvement in the economy can match the 'efficiency of a market
freedom of enterprise = economic freedom
economic freedom is the most basic freedom, all other freedoms can (will) arise from it
because of the former, the political goal should be to deregulate and privatise as many functions of the state as possible, and thus increase economic freedom, even at the prize of other freedoms. (Destroy [most of] the State with the weapons of the State.)

I feel the last point is what gives the ideology its speciality.

In contrast, there are many different modes and ideologies of capitalism content with various roles for the state beyond protection of ownership rights and law enforcement, from social democracy to Gaullism. Also in contrast, even many right-libertarians have different views on how to achieve the goal (if they think about practicalities at all), while anti-corporatist, mutualist, not to mention social libertarians (rare in the US) don't think too high on any of 1-5.

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 05:37:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

Where is the contradiction? Aren't you reducing political ideology to views on the economy here?

Then how would you describe a political party that has to have positions on all topics and a special interest that is focused on just one aspect of the economy, labor, consumers, environment? Similar to how green parties tried to shoe horn in policies that may actually hurt the environment.

Well, and I neither :-) My point is that in the wider world, there are more schools of thought than these too, and even the ideas of those schools can appear in different constellations.

Sorry to hear that. But I did not say my schools of thought were limited to those two. I have taken an interest in the Structuralist views on developing countries as interesting theories I need to explore more fully in the near future.

Thanks for your input on Neoliberalism. With your permission, I may want to use your points. (Rem: Ignoring smiling face placed here.)

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:21:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 1)

Then how would you describe a political party that has to have positions on all topics and a special interest that is focused on just one aspect of the economy, labor, consumers, environment?

Similar to how green parties tried to shoe horn in policies that may actually hurt the environment.

What is similar to what?

_{*Lunatic*, n.

One whose delusions are out of fashion.}

by DoDo on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 06:53:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Introductions. (none / 0)

As "political party" and as a "lobby/advocacy special interest group". Do you want to suggest that neocon's strong focus on foreign policy is an exclusive focus, and that it serves a special interest? (What would that be, lemme guess, Israel's?)
As far as everything I have read about the Neocons as well as the PNAC site tells me that they are an advocacy interest group. They are far beyond the Israel conflict. I actually like their position on Taiwan/China issues. Unless you know more than me, and can point to a paper that is "Neocon Economic Policies for the 21st Century", then I will continue to assume they are an advocacy group.

So I don't follow all the Jews under the bed story line. Do you like George Galloways positions?

What is similar to what?
As an advocacy group transfers to a political party, it is easy to end up advocating for positions that run counter to the primary goals.

Rutherfordian ------------------------------ RDRutherford

by Ronald Rutherford (rdrradio1 -at- msn -dot- com) on Wed Apr 18th, 2007 at 07:12:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Introductions. | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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